I love... LOVE using the old sets of lenses that I had used on old Pentaxes for years, on my K110d! You've already seen a couple of shots taken in Calgary on a business trip recently, but I thought I'd try a couple more.








Anyone else use their digicams for B&W photography?

I've always been a fan of it, hence why I'm so happy it's rather good on my DSLR. I still go old school and use red filters amongst other old filters on the lenses for B&W.

[Pnuts]

Hello everyone,

Followed the advice of Dave about the new B&W option in PS3 and also fiddled with Lightroom filters for a couple of pics taken recently with my new K10D during a week-end in Brittany, I'm still learning so it's not perfect but I find those promising...

'Pompoms', 'Waves' and 'Rocks' taken with the SIGMA 18-50mm F2.8 DC EX Macro Lens.

'Phantom Waves' and 'Wood' taken with the PENTAX 31mm Ltd.

Attached Images

         

[PDL]

Very nice pic.

Maybe. But what would be the point?

Will

Question was about why pure B&W K10D (K10D-bw). Well, as we all know the use of color in digital imaging requires the interpolation of pixels to derive colors. The elimination of the Bayer layer would add sensitivity to each photosite on the sensor. Each photosite would read the photons striking it - no loss due to the filter layer. Sensors would be easier to manufacture, cheaper and higher performance all around. The ability to select the wavelengths striking the sensor would bring back that "old" way of doing things. Just like when we were using B&W film (put a wratten #12 filter on Plus-X shoot the sky --- a number 12 filter blocks blue light (and ultraviolet) - the sky goes black - the clouds go near pure white). When you look at the LCD - you can see the B&W image - shoot with the zone system - (light meters do not see color anyway) Pick what you want. When shooting RAW - that is more bits more graduation for each photosite - not an algorithmically determined color - which is changed into B&W by yet another piece of software. The hardware (firmware) on the camera would be tuned for B&W - maybe faster processing or get rid of the JPEG engine all together.

How about being able to use the real DR of the sensor. The current sensors do not see color - but shades of grey filtered by the Bayer layer. How about ISO 50 or 25 (why be enamored by high ISO?). How about an image with 10M of real pixels instead of 10M of de-mosaiced (algorithmically smudged) pixels. How about 12 bits of grey scale for each of those 10MP. How about not worrying about color space - the list goes on.

Basically I want native B&W not converted B&W.

PDL

[WMBP]

... Just like when we were using B&W film...

PDL,

Well, you gave a better answer than I expected. I can see what you're thinking about.

However, I quoted the line above because I want to respond by noting that it would be just like using black and white film - except for the fact that it's totally different, being after all, digital. Is there a reason why software can't convert to black and white every bit as well as a sensor designed to capture black and white originally? In fact, can't software do it even better? Using Lightroom, in a black and white treatment, I can still play with the color channels, brightening up the green trees or the blue sky. If I had only black and white data to start with, wouldn't I lose the ability to do that kind of thing?

Besides, I'm wondering what the market for this camera would be. Thirty years ago, no, farther back than that, I spent years shooting mainly black and white because that's what I knew how to process myself and because at that time it was much cheaper. But the choice to limit myself to black and white was made when I put in a roll of film - it wasn't a limitation of the camera. I can tell that you are a serious enthusiast and would run out to buy a camera that couldn't do color. But how many others would want to give up that capability? Even if the black and white photos produced by such a camera WERE better (which I'm not sure about), would the y be better enough to offset the loss of color capability?

Now, what might be nice is a grayscale preview on the LCD. I wouldn't think that would be too hard: the camera more or less does it now (using the in-camera b&w filter in the playback menu).

Will

[PDL]

OK WMBP let me try to explain.

Color sensors - other than the Sigma - use Bayer filters that are integrated into the sensor itself. As such when the color image is processed - either by the on board processor (jpeg) or PP software (say Lightroom) the image is created by algorithms that take the RAW data and interpolate the "color" for each pixel. When you get to PP software - and convert to B&W - this interpolated "color" is made a shade of grey. What I would like to have is the RAW grey scale off of each pixel - no interpolation. Since nothing that I can buy does this - I can only imagine what could be done with such output. I think that the resolution would go up - since you are getting the information (at least 12 bit per pixel) for each pixel not an interpolated value.

Now, as for viability --- probably very small number of people would even want such a thing - I would (I probably could not afford a near one-off camera anyway). R&D costs - virtually nothing - B&W mono photo imagers have been out there for a long time (that is what NASA uses - three B&W imagers on the EROS satellites but not r g b - but infrared - mid visible spectrum - near ultraviolet to create "false color" images. Actually they probably use more than three with sensors tuned for very narrow spectral response.

As for playing with color channels in PP software -- where is the analogy in the dark room? I used to dodge and burn by B&W stuff - and the dodge and burn cr*p in PP software is just that - cr*p. Now we have to use masks, layers and such - I wish we could burn or dodge the old way - this percentage paint stuff just does not cut it for me.

Enough with the rant ---- I would like to have a pure B&W camera with 12 bits per pixel - no interpolation - just data. I do not think it will ever happen - but the world is analog - just like film. I love digital - but I really miss watching a print come up out of the soup - and picking it up and breathing on a light spot to speed up the development of that particular spot. I think I miss the "it’s really under my control - in my hands" aspect of film.

PDL - boy am I old

[Donald]

...Now, as for viability --- probably very small number of people would even want such a thing ...

All photo forums and digital post processing websites are heavily populated with questions, advice, samples and tutorials on digital colour to black and white conversion.

It would follow that popular interest exists for 'better' or dedicated or easier or more technologically advanced methods of digital black and white capture.

Probably digital photography is still too young to experience such profound market segmentation.

I can foresee some time in the future when people are arguing ad nauseum "digital black and white model ___ that real professionals use..." vs. colour conversion that hobbyists persist in claiming is just as good....

[PDL]

A pure B&W digital camera would be a lot of fun - sort of getting back to the root and soul of photography. Now if PENTAX would come out with a B&W back for my 4x5 monorail ---- aaahhhh then I could the best of all worlds.

PDL

[shutterdrone]

Some shots w/ the K10D using my "standard" b&w conversion process (channel mixer adjustments, and individual color contrast enhance prior to channel mixer via levels layer between source and cmixer):



(Ok, so the next one also has a little 'orton' effect and exaggerated vignettes)





(25A + CPOl, b&w conversion done in PS)





!c

[shutterdrone]

Also, noting this is my first post here, I thought I might add how happy I am to see others shooting lots of b&w from digitals. Just recently made the jump from film to digi and everyone thought I was crazy for "throwing away those pretty colors"?! As for earlier comments about a b&w sensor on the camera. The idea is really cool, and sure wish I could have one - but, at the same time, I realize it isn't exactly the same, but adjusting the channel mixer is almost like having an entire array of color filters from nearly 0 saturation to 100%, quite nice IMO to get to second-think my original assumptions about what mix would be good for a scene.

!c

[Lazar]

Some great photos in this thread!

Here's my first real attempt at B&W:



K10D + FA 50mm f1.4, bigger size + exif: Girlfriend on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Wethphotography]

The simplest good way is to add a blank layer over your color image, fill it with black and change the blend mode to "color". This doesn't give much control over which colors are lightened/darkened, but gives results very similar to shooting B&W film.

The are some other means of getting cool B&W in Photoshop, but they are a little more tricky.

Dave,
Thanks for the specific technique and the great images. Now that school is over, my grades submitted and classroom cleaned up, I have time once again to experiment. I was hoping for some feedback on my interpretation of your technique from you or from anyone else. I did this in Photoshop Elements following your instructions. I did enhance a little at the end using levels.

Here is the before:


And the after:


Many thanks for sharing your technique I will continue to work on this.