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02-23-2020, 12:08 AM - 1 Like   #811
Des
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I particularly love the light and tones in your last shot of your set, just lovely
Thanks very much Eddy.

There are a surprising number of places in Victoria where you can see the sunset over the water, but not many over tidal flats like this. At low tide it's magic.


Last edited by Des; 02-23-2020 at 02:00 AM.
02-23-2020, 02:31 AM - 1 Like   #812
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Wow. Beautifully done Eddy.

Evening near Port Albert, Victoria, looking across Nooramunga Marine and Coastal Park to Wilson's Promontory. KP + DA 20-40 Ltd.



cool - great mood!

At the moment I'm thinking about buying a DA21Ltd. to use it with the KP for it's compactness ... or DA20-40Ltd. - still undecided, yet.
02-23-2020, 03:58 AM - 1 Like   #813
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
cool - great mood!
Thanks very much.

QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
At the moment I'm thinking about buying a DA21Ltd. to use it with the KP for it's compactness ... or DA20-40Ltd. - still undecided, yet.
Pros for the 21 Ltd:
- More compact (63mm x 25mm, compared to 71mm x 68mm)
- Lighter weight (134g v 283g)
- cheaper
- more readily available second hand
- green ring version does starbursts

Edit: Add two more pros for the 21:
- 49mm filters (55mm on the 20-40)
- 20cm minimum focus distance (28cm for the 20-40)

Pros for the 20-40:
- WR
- DC autofocus
- more versatile
- can give good results on the K-1 (see the wonderful images that @BruceBanner has got with it). DA 21 is not said to be usable in FF mode.
- slightly wider aperture (and very good wide open)

Can't make the IQ comparison, but the look of the images seems similar (excellent colours and contrast).

Depends what matters more to you. You can't really go wrong either way.

Last edited by Des; 02-23-2020 at 04:15 PM.
02-23-2020, 12:53 PM   #814
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Thanks very much.


Pros for the 21 Ltd:- More compact (63mm x 25mm, compared to 71mm x 68mm)
- Lighter weight (134g v 283g)
- cheaper
- more readily available second hand
- green ring version does starbursts

Pros for the 20-40:
- WR
- DC autofocus
- more versatile
- can give good results on the K-1 (see the wonderful images that @BruceBanner has got with it). DA 21 is not said to be usable in FF mode.
- slightly wider aperture (and very good wide open)

Can't make the IQ comparison, but the look of the images seems similar (excellent colours and contrast).

Depends what matters more to you. You can't really go wrong either way.
Thanks!

I'm mainly looking for compactness. But there's no pressure since I also own the DA18-135 that covers the FL. Guess I'll wait to see what Pentax offers the coming months.

02-23-2020, 02:26 PM   #815
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
Thanks!

I'm mainly looking for compactness. But there's no pressure since I also own the DA18-135 that covers the FL. Guess I'll wait to see what Pentax offers the coming months.
As @Des says those would be the main points. I've owned the HD DA 15, HD DA 21, HD DA 35 Macro (all sold) and now the HD DA 20-40. The 20-40 I feel is a very good compromise to owning the other three, it is super light weight for the size of it (you go to pick it up expecting heaviness and there is none!) but really the WR is what sold me the most. If the other primes were WR it would be a different story.

Only the HD DA 35 Macro is in the same ballpark for FF usage/vignette issue as the 20-40, the 15 and 21 are completely incompatible in FF mode.
02-25-2020, 01:52 PM   #816
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
As @Des says those would be the main points. I've owned the HD DA 15, HD DA 21, HD DA 35 Macro (all sold) and now the HD DA 20-40. The 20-40 I feel is a very good compromise to owning the other three, it is super light weight for the size of it (you go to pick it up expecting heaviness and there is none!) but really the WR is what sold me the most. If the other primes were WR it would be a different story.

Only the HD DA 35 Macro is in the same ballpark for FF usage/vignette issue as the 20-40, the 15 and 21 are completely incompatible in FF mode.
Absolute valid arguments. I come from the perspective „buy a GR III for street“ or just a DA21 to use with my KP. Guess the latter fits better because I use different glasses for short and long distance. An OVF to me seems a better solution for this case than a small display. The DA20-40 would make the KP solution significant bulkier in depth and make the set not fit into my jacket pocket. Although I‘d like the WR and usability on FF ... mh ...
02-27-2020, 07:09 AM - 1 Like   #817
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Des and BruceBanner summed up the Pros for the 20-40 pretty well. At the last wedding I shot, I used the 20-40 on the K-1 and it worked out great (I fully tested it before to know where the sweet spots were). The 20-40 is one of my favorite lenses and I rarely leave home without it.

Not long ago I picked up a DA40 just because I wanted to try it. It was so compact on my KP that I just purchased the DA21 for the same reason. I’ll be giving the DA21 the workout in March for the Single In Group.

02-27-2020, 10:45 AM - 1 Like   #818
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QuoteOriginally posted by twilhelm Quote
Des and BruceBanner summed up the Pros for the 20-40 pretty well. At the last wedding I shot, I used the 20-40 on the K-1 and it worked out great (I fully tested it before to know where the sweet spots were). The 20-40 is one of my favorite lenses and I rarely leave home without it.

Not long ago I picked up a DA40 just because I wanted to try it. It was so compact on my KP that I just purchased the DA21 for the same reason. I’ll be giving the DA21 the workout in March for the Single In Group.
The HD DA 20-40 Limited retired every single prime I had in that focal length including the SMC DA40 f2.8 Limited, I still haven't sold the DA40 yet as it is great for astro and great wide open but it has sat in the drawer for too long now. I prefer the images from the 20-40 for all other things than astro though.

Have any of you used it close up? It is fantastic! I discovered this whilst playing with it after just getting it, I took photos of a nice glass of cider and the tins I poured it from and the 3d pop, colours and creamy bokeh were outstanding. None of the primes did any where near as nice a job

BTW I hate anyone who calls it a 'walkaround' lens , this to me smacks of a poor photographer taking snaps of rubbish .... I otherwise have it as one of my landscape trio trying to make proper works of art to print large.

02-27-2020, 01:02 PM - 3 Likes   #819
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QuoteOriginally posted by twilhelm Quote
Des and BruceBanner summed up the Pros for the 20-40 pretty well. At the last wedding I shot, I used the 20-40 on the K-1 and it worked out great (I fully tested it before to know where the sweet spots were). The 20-40 is one of my favorite lenses and I rarely leave home without it.

Not long ago I picked up a DA40 just because I wanted to try it. It was so compact on my KP that I just purchased the DA21 for the same reason. I’ll be giving the DA21 the workout in March for the Single In Group.
Yeah, I am still working out my completely safe FL and Aperture combinations in conjunction with certain LR lens correction and vignetting removal tools/settings. For awhile it looked to me like you would have to shoot a little wider than the focal length you wanted and then do the vignette treatment and then perhaps crop in slightly (losing perhaps 6mp) to completely kill the vignette. For example, say 28mm was what you have set up the shot for, then move to 26mm to give a slight safer buffer, then come editing time you will still achieve 28mm shot at a loss of 6mp.
However, recent testing and I'm not so sure. I've been testing the 20-40 on my K-1 with a 55-77mm step up ring which can take my 77mm cpl or Nd. It's too early to say but it feels as though using the lens anywhere between 25-35mm and no cropping in is necessary, complete vignette removal is possible across those ranges from f3.5 to f8 at least.
I have a landscape shot in mind today and will test further and report back.

QuoteOriginally posted by nocturnal Quote
The HD DA 20-40 Limited retired every single prime I had in that focal length including the SMC DA40 f2.8 Limited, I still haven't sold the DA40 yet as it is great for astro and great wide open but it has sat in the drawer for too long now. I prefer the images from the 20-40 for all other things than astro though.

Have any of you used it close up? It is fantastic! I discovered this whilst playing with it after just getting it, I took photos of a nice glass of cider and the tins I poured it from and the 3d pop, colours and creamy bokeh were outstanding. None of the primes did any where near as nice a job

BTW I hate anyone who calls it a 'walkaround' lens , this to me smacks of a poor photographer taking snaps of rubbish .... I otherwise have it as one of my landscape trio trying to make proper works of art to print large.

Yes a couple of times (K-1, FF Mode);





(KP, aperture stacked);


(KP)


It really is nice for close ups on both platforms.

What many forget about crop sensors vs FF is that the aperture may stay the same and let the same amount of light in, however in terms of DoF, using the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1 has a clear advantage. If we compare the two, f2.8 on the KP is giving a DoF more akin to using the lens at f4.2 on the K-1. If using f4 on the KP it's like using f6 on the K-1. (multiply whatever aperture you have/are using with the 20-40 on the KP by x1.5). Whereas on the K-1 f2.8 or 3.5 is just that. You will always get greater subject isolation with the K-1 than the KP... because physics. For example, if using the lens on both systems below at those settings you'll get a similar FoV and depth. It's arguable that because the K-1 is stopped down more at f6 rather than f4 it will carry a higher IQ across the frame vs the f4 on the KP. Or... if we set the aperture of the K-1 to being f4 also it will give a greater shallower DoF which can be more useful for subject isolation than what the KP can achieve at it's f4.

KP+HD DA 20-40
20mm
f4


K-1+ HD DA 20-40
30mm
f6


= roughly the same FoV and Depth to an image.

KP+HD DA 20-40
20mm
f4


K-1+ HD DA 20-40
30mm
f4


= Same aperture settings and FoV however the K-1 will have a shallower depth and shot greater subject isolation (and typically greater creamier bokeh etc).

So the lens becomes really quite useful on the K-1 for those instances that this stuff matters. What I have found however is you need to take care when focusing on close range things when using the K-1. Often it will fail to lock on with AF, manually overriding it seems to show that it can focus on things quite close up it's just the AF can't.

Edit: Oh and one last thing. I think distortion is generally pretty well controlled when using on the K-1. I have a friend who has a Sigma 20-40 FF lens that he uses on the K-1, and he's done a few portraits with it and have seen some pretty extreme distortion going on, even in fairly central parts. I've seem to manage to get away with a lot more wider angle shots with the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1. It could be I am just not going quite as wide as him (perhaps keeping 25mm as my widest vs his 20mm etc), I haven't done close comparisons, but perhaps this is also a good thing and keeps the portrait stuff a little more acceptable. Some distortion examples of the K-1+20-40 (ff mode of course);

mm unknown, pretty wide though I think, about 25mm

forehead a little too long but still acceptable for the purpose of the shot


23mm, as long as the subject is fairly central distortion should be fine;


I think it's something you need to be worried more about in portrait mode than landscape shooting.

Last edited by BruceBanner; 02-27-2020 at 01:10 PM.
02-27-2020, 01:27 PM - 2 Likes   #820
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I don't consider the DA 20-40 a "walk around" lens. It lives up to it's Limited name. IMO You can see a slight vignette here at 28mm on the K-1, and if memory serves me, there was no crop.
Attached Images
 
02-27-2020, 01:39 PM   #821
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Nice photo twilhem, glad you agree with me :-)

I love vignettes, only the brick wall corner sharpness pixel peep DXO Lenstip analysts don't understand them.

OK they aren't wanted for panos but when doing landscape panos one is usually at f8-f11 etc. anyway and the vignette is gone or corrected in software before stitching.

I even add vignettes to panos as well as burned edges etc.

BTW I have a Hoya Fusion CPL attached at all times to my 20-40, a fantastic marriage for the 20-40, it doesn't add flare, colour cast or deteriorate the 20-40 in any way. Even the transmission is amazing, unlike the old CPLs it was esay to see when it is polarised but with the Hoya Fusion it is difficult to see unless you have something reflective like a car window or a puddle. The Fusion doesn't give you that deep blue sky either like the older polarisers, it is more subtle.
02-28-2020, 01:42 PM - 5 Likes   #822
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I had a chance to test some HD DA 20-40 shots in FF mode on the K-1 with the intention of seeing how well I could remove vignette in LR for a landscape shot where perhaps it was not welcome. I took two shots with a 55-77mm step up ring and 77mm cpl attached, the images are also pixelshifted. All shots were taken RAW with Landscape as the profile (which I selected in LR under Camera Profile). On the edits various gradient filters and adjustments were made to give a more 'finalised' look as well of course things like tweaking the lens profile correction vignette amount etc.

First shot is taken at f11 and at 28mm (ISO 100);

Before



After



Notes; It's over done, overprocessed and not to my taste, but I think it does show just how much vignette removal can be done in LR alone. Also, please bare in mind this is the 'Blue Mountains' and as such there is a haze in the valley, don't confuse that haze with vignette tackling etc. Taking a second look I think I have even overdone the vignette removal and the far left and right corner could be dialled back a bit. What's probably most important however is just the edge sharpness for f11, it's not that great. I think the take away message is that the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1 in FF mode is not really a landscape lens. You'd arguably have a better sharper image across the frame with less vignette tackling bs to deal with if you just shot it at 20mm on the KP If choosing to use the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1 in FF mode then you probably want to use it for non landscape stuff, things at wider apertures where subject isolation is more important and vignette and edge softness is even welcome and not something that needs tackled in PP.

Next up is a shot at 23mm, again f11 and ISO 100;

Before



After



Notes; 23mm is just too much for it to cope with for complete vignette removal in LR. I would be confident to tackle the bottom right corner in PS with content aware fill, but the other corners a little more problematic. It's doable for sure, there just comes a time when you have to factor in time spent tackling the vignette vs just shooting a different lens.

Here's a crop of the shot above, it gets a FoV similar to the 28mm shot at lesser mega pixels (28.1 to be precise);



This illustrates what I have been doing thus far (when vignette removal is absolutely a must), dialling back the zoom slightly at the time of the shot and anticipating cropping in for the desired FoV wanted at the time, for a loss of 8-6mp on average.
Other options are to choose a different aspect ratio such as 4:3 (32mp) instead of 3:2;



I've always said that the HD DA 20-40 on FF is not really great for landscape, but that doesn't mean it is not very usable for different scenarios in FF mode on the K-1. I would never recommend this lens for someone who does serious landscape or architecture. My motivation for owning the 20-40 was to have a backup WR lens for event/wedding photography, something I could use for solo portrait work at different focal lengths (environmental portrait, wet bride and groom in the rain etc) as well as perhaps some group shots. It's small, compact, has WR whereas none of my other wedding lenses do (FA43/77).

The purpose of this post was to just show the cleaning up possible of vignette in LR I guess, just how far a few sliders can go and if yer willing to crop a little then things get even easier. How I wish the K-1 would have a 4:3 crop mode in addition to ASP-C and 1:1
02-28-2020, 02:13 PM   #823
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Brilliant post Bruce and great images! The IQ is superb and that is the main thing

You could always crop them to 4:3 or 1:1 or 6:7 or whatever like I regularly do anyhow for landscapes and there is a tonne of megapixels to do it with

My cousin is a pro photographer and does nothing but 1:1 with his Hasselblad 500
02-29-2020, 12:25 AM   #824
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I had a chance to test some HD DA 20-40 shots in FF mode on the K-1 with the intention of seeing how well I could remove vignette in LR for a landscape shot where perhaps it was not welcome. I took two shots with a 55-77mm step up ring and 77mm cpl attached, the images are also pixelshifted. All shots were taken RAW with Landscape as the profile (which I selected in LR under Camera Profile). On the edits various gradient filters and adjustments were made to give a more 'finalised' look as well of course things like tweaking the lens profile correction vignette amount etc.

First shot is taken at f11 and at 28mm (ISO 100);

Before



After



Notes; It's over done, overprocessed and not to my taste, but I think it does show just how much vignette removal can be done in LR alone. Also, please bare in mind this is the 'Blue Mountains' and as such there is a haze in the valley, don't confuse that haze with vignette tackling etc. Taking a second look I think I have even overdone the vignette removal and the far left and right corner could be dialled back a bit. What's probably most important however is just the edge sharpness for f11, it's not that great. I think the take away message is that the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1 in FF mode is not really a landscape lens. You'd arguably have a better sharper image across the frame with less vignette tackling bs to deal with if you just shot it at 20mm on the KP If choosing to use the HD DA 20-40 on the K-1 in FF mode then you probably want to use it for non landscape stuff, things at wider apertures where subject isolation is more important and vignette and edge softness is even welcome and not something that needs tackled in PP.

Next up is a shot at 23mm, again f11 and ISO 100;

Before



After



Notes; 23mm is just too much for it to cope with for complete vignette removal in LR. I would be confident to tackle the bottom right corner in PS with content aware fill, but the other corners a little more problematic. It's doable for sure, there just comes a time when you have to factor in time spent tackling the vignette vs just shooting a different lens.

Here's a crop of the shot above, it gets a FoV similar to the 28mm shot at lesser mega pixels (28.1 to be precise);



This illustrates what I have been doing thus far (when vignette removal is absolutely a must), dialling back the zoom slightly at the time of the shot and anticipating cropping in for the desired FoV wanted at the time, for a loss of 8-6mp on average.
Other options are to choose a different aspect ratio such as 4:3 (32mp) instead of 3:2;



I've always said that the HD DA 20-40 on FF is not really great for landscape, but that doesn't mean it is not very usable for different scenarios in FF mode on the K-1. I would never recommend this lens for someone who does serious landscape or architecture. My motivation for owning the 20-40 was to have a backup WR lens for event/wedding photography, something I could use for solo portrait work at different focal lengths (environmental portrait, wet bride and groom in the rain etc) as well as perhaps some group shots. It's small, compact, has WR whereas none of my other wedding lenses do (FA43/77).

The purpose of this post was to just show the cleaning up possible of vignette in LR I guess, just how far a few sliders can go and if yer willing to crop a little then things get even easier. How I wish the K-1 would have a 4:3 crop mode in addition to ASP-C and 1:1
Thanks you very much, Bruce. Nice report about an issue I‘m really interested in!
03-02-2020, 08:28 AM   #825
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QuoteOriginally posted by nocturnal Quote
BTW I hate anyone who calls it a 'walkaround' lens , this to me smacks of a poor photographer taking snaps of rubbish
I know the feeling. Most people will tell you that some kind of super-zoom (18-135, 18-200 etc) are the best "walk-around" lenses but I can't think of a lens I'd less like to have on my camera if just going for a walk to photograph whatever I come across.
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