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03-27-2020, 02:57 PM - 1 Like   #826
Des
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Moonrise over Corner Inlet and Wilson's Promontory (on the right). Yanakie, South Gippsland, Victoria, Australia. KP + DA 20-40 Ltd.









The foreground shows the seagrass beds (visible at low tide) that are crucial to the diversity of marine life in this Ramsar site.
The ghost-like figures in the second shot are Black Swans.

I wonder with hindsight whether I should have tried a different exposure mode for a less "glowy" and more defined moon. Maybe a short exposure, low ISO, f8 with Multi-exposure additive?

The ambient light was quite low in the second and third shots - e.g. for the second one, even with a 2 sec exposure, I had to use f5 and 1600 ISO. So f8 400 ISO would have required about 3 stops slower exposure - 16 seconds? Does that mean that to get the same exposure in additive mode, with f8 400 ISO I would have needed 32 shots at 0.5 seconds (or 16 shots at 800 ISO)? By that time perhaps the moon would have been blurry through movement anyway?

Any thoughts?


Last edited by Des; 10-30-2020 at 04:08 PM.
03-28-2020, 12:50 AM - 1 Like   #827
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Moonrise over Corner Inlet and Wilson's Promontory (on the right). Yanakie, South Gippsland, Victoria, Australia. KP + DA 20-40 Ltd.





The foreground shows the seagrass beds (visible at low tide) that are crucial to the diversity of marine life in this Ramsar site.
The ghost-like figures in the second shot are Black Swans.

I wonder with hindsight whether I should have tried a different exposure mode for a less "glowy" and more defined moon. Maybe a short exposure, low ISO, f8 with Multi-exposure additive?

The ambient light was quite low in the second and third shots - e.g. for the second one, even with a 2 sec exposure, I had to use f5 and 1600 ISO. So f8 400 ISO would have required about 3 stops slower exposure - 16 seconds? Does that mean that to get the same exposure in additive mode, with f8 400 ISO I would have needed 32 shots at 0.5 seconds (or 16 shots at 800 ISO)? By that time perhaps the moon would have been blurry through movement anyway?

Any thoughts?
My thoughts ... I like the scenery ... and I would have tried to use a GND filter or maybe a combo of two because strong light is mirrored. A GND 0.9 plus a reversed GND maybe. Didn‘t do it until now but I would experiment with such. On the forum for sure are some experts who are using 100mm filter technique. I‘m still a beginner in this area.
03-28-2020, 03:07 PM   #828
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
My thoughts ... I like the scenery ... and I would have tried to use a GND filter or maybe a combo of two because strong light is mirrored. A GND 0.9 plus a reversed GND maybe. Didn‘t do it until now but I would experiment with such. On the forum for sure are some experts who are using 100mm filter technique. I‘m still a beginner in this area.
I have ND filters but not GNDs. I guess the idea is to reduce the dynamic range of light in the scene by cutting the brightness of the light from the moon (including the reflection) but not reducing the brightness elsewhere.

I suppose the other answer to that would be to bracket the exposure (by a lot - like 5 stops or more, maybe with the assistance of an ND filter) and use layers. But I don't have PS or another program to do that (I mostly just use DxO PL).

I do have the old Google version of the Nix collection. Maybe I could have used HDR Efex Pro 2. But I've never been happy with my HDR attempts and they have involved much more modest bracketing.

Hmmm ...
03-28-2020, 03:47 PM - 1 Like   #829
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
I suppose the other answer to that would be to bracket the exposure (by a lot - like 5 stops or more, maybe with the assistance of an ND filter) and use layers. But I don't have PS or another program to do that (I mostly just use DxO PL)..
You could use hugin for bracketed shots, quite a capable package if you don't mind free open source software...on second thoughts I think that is actually done by enfuse, which is used by hugin.
I haven't done any of that sort of stuff for ages.
Probably best to do a little bit of research if it is of any interest.

Cheers,
Terry

03-28-2020, 04:47 PM   #830
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
You could use hugin for bracketed shots, quite a capable package if you don't mind free open source software...on second thoughts I think that is actually done by enfuse, which is used by hugin.
Thanks for the tip Terry. I notice that you have authored some of the Hugin tutorials.

I use MS ICE for stitching but looking at Hugin it has a lot more functionality than just that (even focus stacking). I'll give it a try.
03-29-2020, 05:32 AM - 2 Likes   #831
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
I have ND filters but not GNDs. I guess the idea is to reduce the dynamic range of light in the scene by cutting the brightness of the light from the moon (including the reflection) but not reducing the brightness elsewhere.

I suppose the other answer to that would be to bracket the exposure (by a lot - like 5 stops or more, maybe with the assistance of an ND filter) and use layers. But I don't have PS or another program to do that (I mostly just use DxO PL).

I do have the old Google version of the Nix collection. Maybe I could have used HDR Efex Pro 2. But I've never been happy with my HDR attempts and they have involved much more modest bracketing.

Hmmm ...
Yes it's about reducing / compressing DR so that nearly all tones fit into the histograms range. ND's are not the right tool for such.

In fact there are a lot of possible ways to deal with HDR situations. Which one you choose depends on your own preferences - how do you like to work - using the camera, additional hardware and software tools and how much time and budget you like to spend.

IMO we shouldn't focus too much on special software but look at our photographic visions and the whole photography process from making decisions in the field up to creating our vision using post processing - which of course also could be in camera.

There are a lot Individual decisions to make. The most important thing IMO is that we enjoy our process - however this process will look like. I experiment to get there and know from that, that I enjoy working slow in the field with tripod. Recently invested some money in a 100mm filter system. I now know it's a complete different experience to use GND filters and see the basic results of such captures on the screen in post processing.

Here an example similar yours. Shot directly into the sun. No sensational image and story and there is some round shaped rainbow flair in the lower right corner. But I think it's a good exmaple cause you had similar conditions and I would appreciate if the sea weed in your photographs would be shown with more detail.

My image without application of a GND filter would have been highlight clipped or half of the image would have been very dark and detail nealy not visible. But I used a 100mm Mid GND 0.9 (3 stops). The basic result already shows a lot detail.


K-1 • FF mode • DA*11-18 @ 18 • ISO100 • f/11 • 1/80s • exposure compensation -1/3


In post mostly applied dust spot removal, a litte bit work on vignette, brightness and a bit contast / micro contrast adjustment.



For special situations you often need specialized software. DXO may be a very good software but some functions like GND seem to be missing. So you could think about something additional. Affinity Photo brings a lot of specialized modules like HDR, Focus stacking and Panaorama and digital layers and GND filters are also on board. At the moment you get the whole package for half of the standard price (27.99€). IMO a no brainer if you use a Windows or MacOS system. I already have it in addition to Capture One Pro. It offers a lot to experiment ...


Last edited by acoufap; 03-29-2020 at 05:37 AM.
03-29-2020, 04:30 PM   #832
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
In fact there are a lot of possible ways to deal with HDR situations.
Thanks for your thoughtful and helpful post Uwe.

I can see how useful a (physical rather than digital) GND would be for strong sunlight and moonlight. Your bicycle in the field shot is a very good example.

I did actually darken the top half of the image and raised the exposure in the bottom half using the simulated GND filter in DxO PhotoLab and some tone mapping. The GND filter was one of the tools introduced with local adjustments in PL. It works OK for modest exposure adjustment, but a physical filter would be much more effective for 3 or more stops.

The 2 second exposure with the second image did give me some blown highlights both in the centre of the moon's orb and in the reflection on the water. Other shots that I took at 1 second or faster didn't have this, but I liked this image better to work with. (Particularly the sky, the swans, the reflection in the damp seagrass and the patterns in the sand.) I was able to bring up the shadows quite a lot and retain detail I wanted - like the nice ripple on the sand on the left foreground. I'd prefer not to have had the blown highlights in the water, but I don't think they spoil the image.

I think the problem here was a little different to the conventional one with a bright light source. What I would have liked was a much shorter exposure to get some detail of the moon, rather than just a glowy circle and corona. It would have needed to be a LOT shorter. The shortest exposure of any image that I took after the sun had set completely was 1/13th second, and even that didn't give any detail. To get the effect I would have liked, I'm thinking perhaps in the order of 1/125th or 1/250th - that is, 8 or 9 stops faster. Seamlessly blending images with such big differences in exposure would seem quite a challenge.

03-29-2020, 05:17 PM - 1 Like   #833
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Yeah Affinity see's a lot of value currently at its price point. I'll stick with LR/PS for now.

The most important thing I think you need to consider is when you're actually TAKING the shot, how are you wanting the image to look in your mind? Are you going for a Chiaroscuro look or HDR? That is what matters the most because your camera settings will change depending upon your decision.

Pentax already has great dynamic range, the problem I feel with HDR is it applies it globally and the shot comes out looking like an 'HDR' shot. A little tip I have is to use the same file twice, push it in one direction (protect highlights) and the other file the opposite (recover shadow), then some brush work to blend the two together. Here's two (non HD DA 20-40) portrait examples where the image is comprised of having a clone of it (virtual copy) to push one version of the file in a different direction to the other, in essence I have made a blended 'hdr' photo from the exact same file;



This shot was taken -1.3EV bias and supported with flash fill. However, the original still shows washed out sky, yet I knew there was cloud details and texture in their somewhere as the blinkies were not firing too badly at the time of the shot. The solution was to duplicate the shot and recover the highlights for one shot and then with the other shot get the look of the fella to how I liked it and then blend together.



Same sort of thing again, -1EV bias and flash fill, but again the sky was nothing like that even with -1 EV. I duplicated the file (virtual copy) and pushed the sky to how I wanted it (which globally of course made him too dark, even with shadow recovery high), and then with the other file ignored the sky and pushed the edit to how I wanted for the subject, then its a case of blending and masking it together.

My point is, with one file, pushing the highlights and shadows to the extreme renders a shot that is a little... weird or 'off'. But within that same single file there does exist a lot of room for pushing around, but sometimes duplicating the file and pushing each file the way you like and then blending together can result in something better than trying to push that solo file.

HDR is not so easy for portrait use which is how I came to discover this trick, but the same should apply to landscape. Sometimes I may bracket the shot where I can, but often not let a program do a hdr merge, instead choosing each part of the files I like and work on those spectrums and do my own blending, they then tend to look less 'HDR' like.
03-30-2020, 02:50 AM - 1 Like   #834
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I think we are going a bit off topic ... and we should stop somewhere. But before I'd like to comment on Bruce's and Des' posts and write down my latest thoughts.

@BruceBanner
The idea of your technique I know from Pseudo HDR technique. The strength is that you only use one shot. So no problem with movement in the scenery and you can opitmize the use of all sensor data. It helps. But I think, unfortunately, that this doesn't suffice the scenery Des describes.

@Des
I'd say in your scenery the already very good sensor DR is exceeded by a significant amount. So much that you can't create the shot you'd like to geet. So single shot even using Bruce's / Pseudo HDR won't help. I also did moon shots in the past. One learning was ... it is done best in daytime / nighttime transition phase. Then you can get details of the moon and environment much easier cause the contrast isn't that huge. But what could we do in your special the scenery?

My thoughts apart from what I said about using GND filters lead to the conclusion that you might use multiple exposure to cover a very wide dynamic range in a special way. I'll describe my thoughts and results from simple experiments in more detail step by step. Camera used: Pentax KP.

Basic Settings
Since M program is best for nighttime photography we choose this program plus live view showing the histogram. Since we are longing for best image quality and need do some post processing we work with raw files.

The moon moves much faster than we might think. So multiple exposures have to be done quick. Let me recommend HDR mode for this. Later you'll understand why. To fix some basic parameters we set an appropriate aperture, maybe f/8 or f/11, and ISO to a value that's appropriate for the lighting of the scenery and targeted exposure time.

HDR mode gives us three exposures. One baseline "0" exposure and two using plus and minus exposure offset. To get the broadest EV spread, set +/-3EV bracketing in the corresponding HDR Capture menue of your camera. The three exposures are stored in one raw container file, pef or dng. I always choose dng.

The cameras special HDR mode isn't that important since we will do our own HDR processing or blending based on raw files. The camera generatet jpg file isn't important to us. So we can simply set HDR automatic.

What's the next step?

Determining HDR "baseline exposure"
Now we have to determine the baseline exposure time "0" for the HDR capture. It's the one when we subtract 3 ev-stops the moon shows the detail you wish to get. In this exposure nealy everything else will drown in dark tones. How can we determine this exposure time?

Remember? We use M program and liveview. Using the front dial we reduce exposure time exposure time step by step. This doesn't work with manual lenses. So please use an "automatic" lens. With every step (shorter exposure time chosen) live view gets darker. At some point you'll realize detail in the moon. Reduce exposure time further until you see the details you'd like to see in your picture. That should be near ETTR (exposure to the right) in the histogram. Now something unexpected ...

M program - something unexpected in HDR mode
While experimenting today, I discovered something really convenient. Usually M mode doesn't work with ev compensation settings. But, hey - in HDR mode it does! Amazing, really cool! So we now simply can go into compensation adjustment and dial in a compensation of +3ev. That's easy because we are supported by the ev compensaion scale to do it. The baseline exposure time now is set. Exposures will be 0, -3, +3.

Dynamic Range covered
Now we trigger the shot and get the raw file containing three raw images bracketed. They cover an extreme wide dynamic range using ETTR (exposure to the right) technique. Example: if we say the sensor is able to cover a DR of 13ev we theoretically get 13ev + 6 ev = 19ev! That's our playground in post processing. Cool, isn't it?

PDCU HDR split (also see https://www.pentaxforums.com/articles/photo-articles/pentax-dcu5-hdr-merging.html)
What to do next? In PDCU (Pentax Digital Camera Utility) we split the original raw container into three raw files. The filenames show postfixes _1, _2 and _3. I can't imagine to get better base data to work out my image vision. To get there we now can use specialized HDR software or layering and blending techniques. Another opportunity to experiment a lot ...

Last edited by acoufap; 03-30-2020 at 03:16 AM.
04-01-2020, 04:01 PM   #835
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Some great tips @Acoufap. Many thanks. You might want to post the KP tip in the KP forum.
04-02-2020, 01:43 AM - 1 Like   #836
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
I think we are going a bit off topic ... and we should stop somewhere. But before I'd like to comment on Bruce's and Des' posts and write down my latest thoughts.

@BruceBanner
The idea of your technique I know from Pseudo HDR technique. The strength is that you only use one shot. So no problem with movement in the scenery and you can opitmize the use of all sensor data. It helps. But I think, unfortunately, that this doesn't suffice the scenery Des describes.

@Des
I'd say in your scenery the already very good sensor DR is exceeded by a significant amount. So much that you can't create the shot you'd like to geet. So single shot even using Bruce's / Pseudo HDR won't help. I also did moon shots in the past. One learning was ... it is done best in daytime / nighttime transition phase. Then you can get details of the moon and environment much easier cause the contrast isn't that huge. But what could we do in your special the scenery?

My thoughts apart from what I said about using GND filters lead to the conclusion that you might use multiple exposure to cover a very wide dynamic range in a special way. I'll describe my thoughts and results from simple experiments in more detail step by step. Camera used: Pentax KP.

Basic Settings
Since M program is best for nighttime photography we choose this program plus live view showing the histogram. Since we are longing for best image quality and need do some post processing we work with raw files.

The moon moves much faster than we might think. So multiple exposures have to be done quick. Let me recommend HDR mode for this. Later you'll understand why. To fix some basic parameters we set an appropriate aperture, maybe f/8 or f/11, and ISO to a value that's appropriate for the lighting of the scenery and targeted exposure time.

HDR mode gives us three exposures. One baseline "0" exposure and two using plus and minus exposure offset. To get the broadest EV spread, set +/-3EV bracketing in the corresponding HDR Capture menue of your camera. The three exposures are stored in one raw container file, pef or dng. I always choose dng.

The cameras special HDR mode isn't that important since we will do our own HDR processing or blending based on raw files. The camera generatet jpg file isn't important to us. So we can simply set HDR automatic.

What's the next step?

Determining HDR "baseline exposure"
Now we have to determine the baseline exposure time "0" for the HDR capture. It's the one when we subtract 3 ev-stops the moon shows the detail you wish to get. In this exposure nealy everything else will drown in dark tones. How can we determine this exposure time?

Remember? We use M program and liveview. Using the front dial we reduce exposure time exposure time step by step. This doesn't work with manual lenses. So please use an "automatic" lens. With every step (shorter exposure time chosen) live view gets darker. At some point you'll realize detail in the moon. Reduce exposure time further until you see the details you'd like to see in your picture. That should be near ETTR (exposure to the right) in the histogram. Now something unexpected ...

M program - something unexpected in HDR mode
While experimenting today, I discovered something really convenient. Usually M mode doesn't work with ev compensation settings. But, hey - in HDR mode it does! Amazing, really cool! So we now simply can go into compensation adjustment and dial in a compensation of +3ev. That's easy because we are supported by the ev compensaion scale to do it. The baseline exposure time now is set. Exposures will be 0, -3, +3.

Dynamic Range covered
Now we trigger the shot and get the raw file containing three raw images bracketed. They cover an extreme wide dynamic range using ETTR (exposure to the right) technique. Example: if we say the sensor is able to cover a DR of 13ev we theoretically get 13ev + 6 ev = 19ev! That's our playground in post processing. Cool, isn't it?

PDCU HDR split (also see DCU5 and HDR Photography Workflow - Articles and Tips | PentaxForums.com)
What to do next? In PDCU (Pentax Digital Camera Utility) we split the original raw container into three raw files. The filenames show postfixes _1, _2 and _3. I can't imagine to get better base data to work out my image vision. To get there we now can use specialized HDR software or layering and blending techniques. Another opportunity to experiment a lot ...
Ah, I didn't know what I had discovered and used had a name 'Pseudo HDR', cool.


I had a play around with the HDR feature of the camera the other day (after reading some of this, skim reading, basically realising you could actually separate the RAW files). I used HDR 1 for the shot below with default menu settings.
Now... ignoring the moon issue that Des has, I see the Jpg preview of the HDR mode being potentially quite important. It might give the user some feedback as to what the final HDR might look like (if too lazy for masking and manual blending approaches). I didn't realise in the menu system of the camera we could also change the EV bias amount for each HDR mode, cool! HDR 1 seems to be to being the gentlest, and I haven't worked out yet if a EV bias less than the default 2 will provide a gentler hdr, nor if Highlight Correction and Shadow Correction are applied in this mode (and is showing in the Jpg Preview at the very least, I'm aware Shadow Correction is not carried across to the RAW but Highlight Correction is). I also wonder if we can save one User Mode to having HDR 1 to having a 1 ev bias, and a different User Mode to having HDR 1 to having a different ev bias such as 2 or 3. will have to check on that. Also I'm wondering if the shot is processed quicker with Auto Align ticked off? (should you of course have a tripod with you).
All in all it's quite exciting as an option to think about using, to even squeeze a little more out of the camera. I do use bracketing quite a lot, but it feels like something I seldom use, and a brain fart to work it all out, how many bracketed shots, how much ev bias etc. I quite like this idea of using HDR mode and splitting the files up afterwards, getting a Jpg preview at the time to help you gauge how far off you are etc. Could be simpler when you just want that teeny bit more dynamic range.

I tend to use Av mode a lot, and manually override the Auto ISO when needed. I also like the idea of using Manual and getting that Live View feedback for exposing correctly, it could mean you get a better ETTL shot etc or whatever technique you like to use for landscape.

Good stuff Acoufap!

Oh and this is the HDR 1 shot with the HD DA 20-40

04-02-2020, 06:12 AM - 2 Likes   #837
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Realised this was in the wrong thread.

Last edited by Jonathan Mac; 05-25-2020 at 06:51 AM.
04-03-2020, 09:07 PM   #838
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QuoteOriginally posted by acoufap Quote
..
Hey if you have a second we'd appreciate your pearls of wisdom over here

HDR Mode - PentaxForums.com
04-04-2020, 02:19 AM - 1 Like   #839
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Some great tips @Acoufap. Many thanks. You might want to post the KP tip in the KP forum.
Hi Des, you referenced the KP Full Review. I think my thoughts are more of general nature concerning HDR photography that fits at least KP and K-1. So I included the posts into the thread that @BruceBanner opened ... HDR Mode.
05-14-2020, 04:46 AM - 2 Likes   #840
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Walkies


I have been known to occasionally take the family pet out for a walk... and by pet I mean daughter.

K-1 in FF Mode.
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