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rustynail925 · 07-27-2010, 09:46 AM

Whats the typical flash for a beginner?
Im thinking of getting a Metz58 but someone suggested that ill buy a cheap one first like vivitar 285 hv
If i bought the vivitar what features will i be missing?
or should i get the cheaper metz48 instead?
any advice?

GerryL · 07-27-2010, 10:10 AM

The 285HV is not P-TTL but it is a huge *ss flash!
You have to use it manually reading off the calculations on the guide on the flashe's side.
I don't know anything about the Metz but I am happy with the Tumax brand flashes such as Bower SFD926P, Rokinon, Vivitar DF383, Digital Concepts..all are power zoom and just have different re-brands but all are made by Tumax.
These are P-TTL with optical slave built-in too!
They also have a bulit-in pull-out diffuser and card bouncer.
All it lacks is the wireless capability of the OEM Pentax flashes.
These brands that I mentioned also offer models that have a manual zoom head instead of the power zoom feature or a much lower model with just a bounce (minus the swivel) feature.
With the power zoom feature with bounce and swivel they would cost around $90+ to $120+.
With the manual zoom feature with bounce and swivel they would cost only $80+.
For just the bounce featured models, they are about $50 (mostly Rokinons).
I use this more (Bower SFD926P) than the Vivitar 285HV.
P-TTL is the way to go!

ChooseAName · 07-27-2010, 12:45 PM

I bought the Metz 48 after I'd had my K200D (first SLR, digital or not) for two months. It's a good flash, although I must admit I haven't used any others. For my needs, I could not justify the price of the Metz 58 or the Pentax AF 540. Swivel and tilt were big priorities for me, which is why I didn't go with the Pentax AF 360.

It was a toss-up between the Metz 48 and the Sigma EF 530 DG Super, but I decided to go with the Metz for the features, thinking I could bear with a bad user interface if it meant more features. (It's a bit of a hassle to change settings, but almost a year later, I do not regret my purchase.)

SpecialK · 07-27-2010, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by rustynail925

Whats the typical flash for a beginner?
Im thinking of getting a Metz58 but someone suggested that ill buy a cheap one first like vivitar 285 hv
If i bought the vivitar what features will i be missing?
or should i get the cheaper metz48 instead?
any advice?

What do you plan on using it for?

GeneV · 07-27-2010, 01:39 PM

I am assuming since you are on a Pentax board, that you have a Pentax DSLR. For a beginner, I'd suggest sticking with a flash that speaks Pentax. I'd probably go with the AF360 FGZ. It can be had around $200, and has lots of nice features and decent power. It zooms with your camera, though I don't find that feature as helpful as some.

The AF 360 also does not swivel, but I can't say that I use the swivel on my AF540 FGZ enough that it would be a deciding feature. I used Vivitar 283s for many years on film bodies, and also seldom missed the swivel, but YMMV.

MPrince · 07-27-2010, 02:10 PM

My vote goes to the Nikon SB-24. Available used for under $100USD. Works on camera in auto and manual mode and is a great off-camera flash.

future_retro · 07-27-2010, 02:34 PM

I vote for the Bower 926P

I got it a few weeks ago as my first flash and it's been wonderful as on on camera flash. I used it yesterday to take pictures of a house for a realtor and without it I would have not been able to get any of the shots, the tilt and swivel head was the clincher. After having both tilt and swivel together I can't imagine having a flash with only one or neither, because I had to precisely aim the flash with tilt and swivel in every single shot, I didn't use direct flash once all day

it's pretty cheap and is P-TTL*, nice power too

*thanks GerryL for pointing that out

Last edited by future_retro; 07-27-2010 at 02:58 PM.

GerryL · 07-27-2010, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by future_retro

I vote for the Bower 926P

I got it a few weeks ago as my first flash and it's been wonderful as on on camera flash. I used it yesterday to take pictures of a house for a realtor and without it I would have not been able to get any of the shots, the tilt and swivel head was the clincher. After having both tilt and swivel together I can't imagine having a flash with only one or neither, because I had to precisely aim the flash with tilt and swivel in every single shot, I didn't use direct flash once all day

it's pretty cheap and is TTL, nice power too

I assume this is a typho 'coz it is P-TTL not just TTL.

future_retro · 07-27-2010, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by GerryL

I assume this is a typho 'coz it is P-TTL not just TTL.

Thanks for the correction

twitch · 07-27-2010, 03:08 PM

Metz 48 is far better than the Pentax 360 for 2 reasons. 1) It swivels 2) it has more power. I've got one and it's terrific. I use the swivel and tilt feature every single time I use it.

A Metz 58 would be even better if you can afford it. That extra power actually makes a big difference when bouncing as so much light is lost in doing so.

Have a look at this blog, it's the best "how to" on camera flash blog I've ever read.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

SpecialK · 07-27-2010, 05:18 PM

I used to have the Pentax AF540G. Turns out I don't really shoot flash, so I recently sold it. Even though I don't use flash I had a little pang of needing one just in case (of what I don't know*), and thought either the Adorama or Bower unit, with tilt and swivel for under $50, would do in a pinch. Then I discovered I had a little Sunpak digital flash (AKA DF20, I think) that has bounce capability and massive power (GN52, auto f4 :-).... I actually used it recently in a military bunker/museum :-)

*even though I don't shoot flash, I got the smallest Canon one for my SX20 (just in case, as well) and used that for 2 shots while on vacation...

GeneV · 07-27-2010, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by twitch

A Metz 58 would be even better if you can afford it. That extra power actually makes a big difference when bouncing as so much light is lost in doing so.

Of course it is better, but does a "beginner" need to spend $400 for his first flash?

The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price.

If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL.

mattdm · 07-27-2010, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price.

At 85mm, the Metz flash has a GN of 43m, which is still 43% more powerful than the Pentax one.

And keep in mind that the flash zoom numbers are quoted in terms of full frame. When you're using a crop sensor, you need to take this into account in a direction which may seem counterintuitive. When they say "85mm", they really mean "the angle covered by a 85mm lens on a 35mm full-frame camera", which is about 24° horizontally. On a 1.5× crop camera (like any Pentax DSLR), a shorter focal length provides the same "wideness". Specifically, 85mm ÷ 1.5 = (about) 57mm. Which means any time you're zoomed in more than that, you benefit from the tighter reflector Metz provides.

Anyway, here's my visualization of the relative power of the two flash units at all of the different flash zoom settings:

(See more flash burst profiles here.)

Originally posted by GeneV

If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL.

Ditto on the wireless, and on the Metz 36 AF-4. (I've never used the latter, but am very impressed with Metz as a company.)

rustynail925 · 07-27-2010, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by SpecialK

What do you plan on using it for?

For portraits indoor, to practice on studio lighting maybe 2-3 lighting, and its good that you can
use it outdoors too.

rustynail925 · 07-28-2010, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Of course it is better, but does a "beginner" need to spend $400 for his first flash?

The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price.

If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL.

The Metz48 can be used as wireless slave right? you need the built in flash to trigger it am i right?
Im still interested on the metz58, whats the disadvantage of this flash? anyone owns it and regreted after?

07-27-2010, 09:46 AM	#1
rustynail925 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,551	Whats the typical flash for a beginner? Whats the typical flash for a beginner? Im thinking of getting a Metz58 but someone suggested that ill buy a cheap one first like vivitar 285 hv If i bought the vivitar what features will i be missing? or should i get the cheaper metz48 instead? any advice?

07-27-2010, 02:10 PM	#6
MPrince Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: WV Posts: 1,495	My vote goes to the Nikon SB-24. Available used for under $100USD. Works on camera in auto and manual mode and is a great off-camera flash. Last edited by MPrince; 07-27-2010 at 03:07 PM.

07-27-2010, 05:41 PM	#12
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by twitch A Metz 58 would be even better if you can afford it. That extra power actually makes a big difference when bouncing as so much light is lost in doing so. Of course it is better, but does a "beginner" need to spend $400 for his first flash? The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price. If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL. Last edited by GeneV; 07-27-2010 at 05:57 PM.

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07-27-2010, 10:10 AM	#2
GerryL Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: CA Posts: 2,731	The 285HV is not P-TTL but it is a huge *ss flash! You have to use it manually reading off the calculations on the guide on the flashe's side. I don't know anything about the Metz but I am happy with the Tumax brand flashes such as Bower SFD926P, Rokinon, Vivitar DF383, Digital Concepts..all are power zoom and just have different re-brands but all are made by Tumax. These are P-TTL with optical slave built-in too! They also have a bulit-in pull-out diffuser and card bouncer. All it lacks is the wireless capability of the OEM Pentax flashes. These brands that I mentioned also offer models that have a manual zoom head instead of the power zoom feature or a much lower model with just a bounce (minus the swivel) feature. With the power zoom feature with bounce and swivel they would cost around $90+ to $120+. With the manual zoom feature with bounce and swivel they would cost only $80+. For just the bounce featured models, they are about $50 (mostly Rokinons). I use this more (Bower SFD926P) than the Vivitar 285HV. P-TTL is the way to go!

07-27-2010, 12:45 PM	#3
ChooseAName Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southeast USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 390	I bought the Metz 48 after I'd had my K200D (first SLR, digital or not) for two months. It's a good flash, although I must admit I haven't used any others. For my needs, I could not justify the price of the Metz 58 or the Pentax AF 540. Swivel and tilt were big priorities for me, which is why I didn't go with the Pentax AF 360. It was a toss-up between the Metz 48 and the Sigma EF 530 DG Super, but I decided to go with the Metz for the features, thinking I could bear with a bad user interface if it meant more features. (It's a bit of a hassle to change settings, but almost a year later, I do not regret my purchase.)

07-27-2010, 12:59 PM	#4
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,482	Originally posted by rustynail925 Whats the typical flash for a beginner? Im thinking of getting a Metz58 but someone suggested that ill buy a cheap one first like vivitar 285 hv If i bought the vivitar what features will i be missing? or should i get the cheaper metz48 instead? any advice? What do you plan on using it for?

07-27-2010, 01:39 PM	#5
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	I am assuming since you are on a Pentax board, that you have a Pentax DSLR. For a beginner, I'd suggest sticking with a flash that speaks Pentax. I'd probably go with the AF360 FGZ. It can be had around $200, and has lots of nice features and decent power. It zooms with your camera, though I don't find that feature as helpful as some. The AF 360 also does not swivel, but I can't say that I use the swivel on my AF540 FGZ enough that it would be a deciding feature. I used Vivitar 283s for many years on film bodies, and also seldom missed the swivel, but YMMV.

07-27-2010, 02:34 PM	#7
future_retro Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Western Washington Posts: 572	I vote for the Bower 926P I got it a few weeks ago as my first flash and it's been wonderful as on on camera flash. I used it yesterday to take pictures of a house for a realtor and without it I would have not been able to get any of the shots, the tilt and swivel head was the clincher. After having both tilt and swivel together I can't imagine having a flash with only one or neither, because I had to precisely aim the flash with tilt and swivel in every single shot, I didn't use direct flash once all day it's pretty cheap and is P-TTL, nice power too thanks GerryL for pointing that out Last edited by future_retro; 07-27-2010 at 02:58 PM.

07-27-2010, 02:54 PM	#8
GerryL Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: CA Posts: 2,731	Originally posted by future_retro I vote for the Bower 926P I got it a few weeks ago as my first flash and it's been wonderful as on on camera flash. I used it yesterday to take pictures of a house for a realtor and without it I would have not been able to get any of the shots, the tilt and swivel head was the clincher. After having both tilt and swivel together I can't imagine having a flash with only one or neither, because I had to precisely aim the flash with tilt and swivel in every single shot, I didn't use direct flash once all day it's pretty cheap and is TTL, nice power too I assume this is a typho 'coz it is P-TTL not just TTL.

07-27-2010, 02:56 PM	#9
future_retro Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Western Washington Posts: 572	Originally posted by GerryL I assume this is a typho 'coz it is P-TTL not just TTL. Thanks for the correction

07-27-2010, 03:08 PM	#10
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Metz 48 is far better than the Pentax 360 for 2 reasons. 1) It swivels 2) it has more power. I've got one and it's terrific. I use the swivel and tilt feature every single time I use it. A Metz 58 would be even better if you can afford it. That extra power actually makes a big difference when bouncing as so much light is lost in doing so. Have a look at this blog, it's the best "how to" on camera flash blog I've ever read. http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

07-27-2010, 05:18 PM	#11
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,482	I used to have the Pentax AF540G. Turns out I don't really shoot flash, so I recently sold it. Even though I don't use flash I had a little pang of needing one just in case (of what I don't know), and thought either the Adorama or Bower unit, with tilt and swivel for under $50, would do in a pinch. Then I discovered I had a little Sunpak digital flash (AKA DF20, I think) that has bounce capability and massive power (GN52, auto f4 :-).... I actually used it recently in a military bunker/museum :-) even though I don't shoot flash, I got the smallest Canon one for my SX20 (just in case, as well) and used that for 2 shots while on vacation...

07-27-2010, 08:24 PM	#13
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by GeneV The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price. At 85mm, the Metz flash has a GN of 43m, which is still 43% more powerful than the Pentax one. And keep in mind that the flash zoom numbers are quoted in terms of full frame. When you're using a crop sensor, you need to take this into account in a direction which may seem counterintuitive. When they say "85mm", they really mean "the angle covered by a 85mm lens on a 35mm full-frame camera", which is about 24° horizontally. On a 1.5× crop camera (like any Pentax DSLR), a shorter focal length provides the same "wideness". Specifically, 85mm ÷ 1.5 = (about) 57mm. Which means any time you're zoomed in more than that, you benefit from the tighter reflector Metz provides. Anyway, here's my visualization of the relative power of the two flash units at all of the different flash zoom settings: (See more flash burst profiles here.) Originally posted by GeneV If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL. Ditto on the wireless, and on the Metz 36 AF-4. (I've never used the latter, but am very impressed with Metz as a company.)

07-27-2010, 09:30 PM	#14
rustynail925 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,551 Original Poster	Originally posted by SpecialK What do you plan on using it for? For portraits indoor, to practice on studio lighting maybe 2-3 lighting, and its good that you can use it outdoors too.

07-28-2010, 07:21 AM	#15
rustynail925 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,551 Original Poster	Originally posted by GeneV Of course it is better, but does a "beginner" need to spend $400 for his first flash? The 48 looks very interesting, though, even though it is a tad more expensive than the cheapest price on the AF360. I'm not sure it is as much more powerful as it looks, since Metz rates the guide number at 105mm and Pentax at 85. However, the swivel and a little bit more power look like they would be worth the price. If one were not interested in swivel or wireless, the Metz 36 might be a nice starter flash. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the loss of wireless, because I use that mode all the time, but for about $100, or half the price of the AF360 or Metz 48, you get the power of the AF360, bounce and P-TTL. The Metz48 can be used as wireless slave right? you need the built in flash to trigger it am i right? Im still interested on the metz58, whats the disadvantage of this flash? anyone owns it and regreted after?