Flash Modeling/Torch Light

Deiberson · 03-15-2011, 11:48 AM

Dave,
I'm going to jump in here too because I think I was looking for the same option. My English is probably just a little bit better than the OP so hopefully I can clarify this.

I always see pictures of flashes in the scene when they are just " turned on". Joe McNally's Hot shoe Diaries comes to mind

I wondered how they did this and if my flashes could do this too. I know my Sig 530 Super and AF360 have model modes that fire a "flickr" for a second or 2. Is this what I'm seeing in the image or does the AF360 and Sig 530 Super have a short continuous mode or a "model" mode equivalent to one that I might find on an Alien Bee?

mattdm · 03-15-2011, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Deiberson

I wondered how they did this and if my flashes could do this too. I know my Sig 530 Super and AF360 have model modes that fire a "flickr" for a second or 2. Is this what I'm seeing in the image or does the AF360 and Sig 530 Super have a short continuous mode or a "model" mode equivalent to one that I might find on an Alien Bee?

Nope — it's like alohadave said. The flash is "frozen on" because it's in the picture.

Imagine a regular flash not in the picture. When you take the shot and examine the result, the light is on, right? Even though it was only a very quick burst, that's what's recorded.

This is the same thing, except you see the flash.

Your Pentax AF360FGZ and Sigma EF530DG Super can definitely do that too. They do it all the time.

v3t0 · 03-16-2011, 07:36 AM

i dont think it frozen because it was in picture..

look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached..

who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec..

mattdm · 03-16-2011, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by v3t0

i dont think it frozen because it was in picture..

look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached..

who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec..

These pictures are not using the test button or a modeling light feature. The flash is simply triggered as a remote, wireless slave. No buttons required.

alohadave · 03-16-2011, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by v3t0

i dont think it frozen because it was in picture..

look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached..

who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec..

There are two ways of triggering flashes without wires. Radio frequency and optical triggering.

To repeat, there is no modeling light in these flashes.

Deiberson · 03-16-2011, 10:10 AM

I get it. Thanks.. Basically...turn your flash on, take a picture of it and that's what you get. Once the flash in the picture was fired....it is no longer (and never has been )on.

Thanks guys

mtansley · 03-16-2011, 12:16 PM

To sum it all up, basically what you're seeing in the photos is the very fast duration of the flash itself (1/5000sec to 1/10000sec or something like that?) being captured on your camera with a shutter speed of 1/60-1/180.

You're capturing a photo of a split second. Rather interesting when you think about it.

Michael

mattdm · 03-16-2011, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by mtansley

To sum it all up, basically what you're seeing in the photos is the very fast duration of the flash itself (1/5000sec to 1/10000sec or something like that?) being captured on your camera with a shutter speed of 1/60-1/180.

You're capturing a photo of a split second. Rather interesting when you think about it.

That's true if the flash isn't firing at full power. If it is, the total light impulse duration is quite close to a typical shutter speed.

mtansley · 03-16-2011, 05:14 PM

So the flash at full power is actually close to 125 or 180 shutter speed? That I didn't know. I do admit to finding the whole idea of flashes as being interesting.

mattdm · 03-16-2011, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by mtansley

So the flash at full power is actually close to 125 or 180 shutter speed? That I didn't know. I do admit to finding the whole idea of flashes as being interesting.

Yeah. Check this out: Flash Duration - Pentax P-TTL Flash Comparison

Basically, the numbers typically given by manufacturers for flash duration are easy to measure and sound good, but only tell part of the story. There's another measurement, called the T.1 duration, which gives a better picture of the amount of time the flash impulse actually contributes to the exposure.

At low powers on high-powered flashes, this really can be down to the ¹⁄₃₃,₀₀₀ of a second numbers we're familiar with — but at full power, a flash like the Metz 58 AF-1 takes ¹⁄₁₂₅ of a second. (Longer than the flash sync speed for Pentax, even. So be careful with that!)

hoanpham · 03-17-2011, 04:51 AM

the sigma 530 super does have modelling light.
It produces relatively low power short pulses in longer duration to mimic modelling light.

Personally, I never use this function. I take a test shoot then adjust thereafter.

mtansley · 03-17-2011, 04:53 AM

Thanks for that info, Matt.

I have reviewed your guide several times (saving for my Metz 58 AF-2 as we speak) but some of the more technical aspects I admit I glossed over. Due to our discussion here I'm going to go back and study some of those things in more detail. I'm used to using flashes but haven't delved really deeply into them.

Further addition: I just read your guide regarding the T.1 & T.5 speeds. Very interesting. I certainly wouldn't hold the low speed against Metz. As long as they provide the info, you can work around the limits. I've also found their tech support in Germany to be superb, I was looking for a cable for one of my 25 year old flashes & emailed them, they replied within an hour with the name & address of my local distributor in Canada. Very impressive.

Michael

alohadave · 03-17-2011, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by mtansley

Thanks for that info, Matt.

I have reviewed your guide several times (saving for my Metz 58 AF-2 as we speak) but some of the more technical aspects I admit I glossed over. Due to our discussion here I'm going to go back and study some of those things in more detail. I'm used to using flashes but haven't delved really deeply into them.

Further addition: I just read your guide regarding the T.1 & T.5 speeds. Very interesting. I certainly wouldn't hold the low speed against Metz. As long as they provide the info, you can work around the limits. I've also found their tech support in Germany to be superb, I was looking for a cable for one of my 25 year old flashes & emailed them, they replied within an hour with the name & address of my local distributor in Canada. Very impressive.

Michael

You should be aware that the t.5 and t.1 times only really apply at full power. At less than full power the flash cuts the flash output and the decay curve is non-existent (which is what t.5 and t.1 are measuring).

It's really not that much of a problem unless you need to freeze action at full power.

In studio strobes (that are not IGBT based), the t.5 and t.1 times are important, and they actually get slower as you power down the flash. So you really need know what type of flash you are using.

Strobist: Rise (and Fall) of The Machines: Understanding t.5/t.1 Times

mattdm · 03-17-2011, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by alohadave

You should be aware that the t.5 and t.1 times only really apply at full power. At less than full power the flash cuts the flash output and the decay curve is non-existent (which is what t.5 and t.1 are measuring).

Good point. I should update my pttl guide page to better reflect that. There's some nice actual graphs (from a canon speedlite) here: Discharge Curves of Electronic Flash at Different Power Settings
where one can see that even at half power the abrupt cutoff is a big deal.

03-17-2011, 04:53 AM	#27
mtansley Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,139	Thanks for that info, Matt. I have reviewed your guide several times (saving for my Metz 58 AF-2 as we speak) but some of the more technical aspects I admit I glossed over. Due to our discussion here I'm going to go back and study some of those things in more detail. I'm used to using flashes but haven't delved really deeply into them. Further addition: I just read your guide regarding the T.1 & T.5 speeds. Very interesting. I certainly wouldn't hold the low speed against Metz. As long as they provide the info, you can work around the limits. I've also found their tech support in Germany to be superb, I was looking for a cable for one of my 25 year old flashes & emailed them, they replied within an hour with the name & address of my local distributor in Canada. Very impressive. Michael Last edited by mtansley; 03-17-2011 at 05:02 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
AF 540 flash modeling lamp	ceojr	Flashes, Lighting, and Studio	7	09-28-2010 07:33 AM
Sports Olympic Torch Relay	bikecoboss	Post Your Photos!	2	02-08-2010 03:49 PM
The Torch is Passed	little laker	General Talk	12	06-30-2009 12:40 AM
Can't get test flash/modeling flash to work on af360	ffuller22	Flashes, Lighting, and Studio	0	10-31-2007 05:11 PM

03-15-2011, 11:48 AM	#16
Deiberson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 734	Dave, I'm going to jump in here too because I think I was looking for the same option. My English is probably just a little bit better than the OP so hopefully I can clarify this. I always see pictures of flashes in the scene when they are just " turned on". Joe McNally's Hot shoe Diaries comes to mind I wondered how they did this and if my flashes could do this too. I know my Sig 530 Super and AF360 have model modes that fire a "flickr" for a second or 2. Is this what I'm seeing in the image or does the AF360 and Sig 530 Super have a short continuous mode or a "model" mode equivalent to one that I might find on an Alien Bee?

03-15-2011, 03:57 PM	#17
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by Deiberson I wondered how they did this and if my flashes could do this too. I know my Sig 530 Super and AF360 have model modes that fire a "flickr" for a second or 2. Is this what I'm seeing in the image or does the AF360 and Sig 530 Super have a short continuous mode or a "model" mode equivalent to one that I might find on an Alien Bee? Nope — it's like alohadave said. The flash is "frozen on" because it's in the picture. Imagine a regular flash not in the picture. When you take the shot and examine the result, the light is on, right? Even though it was only a very quick burst, that's what's recorded. This is the same thing, except you see the flash. Your Pentax AF360FGZ and Sigma EF530DG Super can definitely do that too. They do it all the time.

03-16-2011, 07:36 AM	#18
v3t0 Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 54 Original Poster	i dont think it frozen because it was in picture.. look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached.. who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec..

03-16-2011, 08:06 AM	#19
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by v3t0 i dont think it frozen because it was in picture.. look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached.. who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec.. These pictures are not using the test button or a modeling light feature. The flash is simply triggered as a remote, wireless slave. No buttons required.

03-16-2011, 09:34 AM	#20
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by v3t0 i dont think it frozen because it was in picture.. look at the picture i attached and the picture deiberson attached.. who push the test/model button..in tha deiberson pic, who push the button inside that chicken? i believe the modeling light will last less than a sec.. There are two ways of triggering flashes without wires. Radio frequency and optical triggering. To repeat, there is no modeling light in these flashes.

03-16-2011, 10:10 AM	#21
Deiberson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 734	I get it. Thanks.. Basically...turn your flash on, take a picture of it and that's what you get. Once the flash in the picture was fired....it is no longer (and never has been )on. Thanks guys

03-16-2011, 12:16 PM	#22
mtansley Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,139	To sum it all up, basically what you're seeing in the photos is the very fast duration of the flash itself (1/5000sec to 1/10000sec or something like that?) being captured on your camera with a shutter speed of 1/60-1/180. You're capturing a photo of a split second. Rather interesting when you think about it. Michael

03-16-2011, 03:05 PM	#23
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by mtansley To sum it all up, basically what you're seeing in the photos is the very fast duration of the flash itself (1/5000sec to 1/10000sec or something like that?) being captured on your camera with a shutter speed of 1/60-1/180. You're capturing a photo of a split second. Rather interesting when you think about it. That's true if the flash isn't firing at full power. If it is, the total light impulse duration is quite close to a typical shutter speed.

03-16-2011, 05:14 PM	#24
mtansley Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ajax, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,139	So the flash at full power is actually close to 125 or 180 shutter speed? That I didn't know. I do admit to finding the whole idea of flashes as being interesting.

03-16-2011, 06:20 PM	#25
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by mtansley So the flash at full power is actually close to 125 or 180 shutter speed? That I didn't know. I do admit to finding the whole idea of flashes as being interesting. Yeah. Check this out: Flash Duration - Pentax P-TTL Flash Comparison Basically, the numbers typically given by manufacturers for flash duration are easy to measure and sound good, but only tell part of the story. There's another measurement, called the T.1 duration, which gives a better picture of the amount of time the flash impulse actually contributes to the exposure. At low powers on high-powered flashes, this really can be down to the ¹⁄₃₃,₀₀₀ of a second numbers we're familiar with — but at full power, a flash like the Metz 58 AF-1 takes ¹⁄₁₂₅ of a second. (Longer than the flash sync speed for Pentax, even. So be careful with that!)

03-17-2011, 04:51 AM	#26
hoanpham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Strand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,366	the sigma 530 super does have modelling light. It produces relatively low power short pulses in longer duration to mimic modelling light. Personally, I never use this function. I take a test shoot then adjust thereafter.

03-17-2011, 05:11 AM	#28
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by mtansley Thanks for that info, Matt. I have reviewed your guide several times (saving for my Metz 58 AF-2 as we speak) but some of the more technical aspects I admit I glossed over. Due to our discussion here I'm going to go back and study some of those things in more detail. I'm used to using flashes but haven't delved really deeply into them. Further addition: I just read your guide regarding the T.1 & T.5 speeds. Very interesting. I certainly wouldn't hold the low speed against Metz. As long as they provide the info, you can work around the limits. I've also found their tech support in Germany to be superb, I was looking for a cable for one of my 25 year old flashes & emailed them, they replied within an hour with the name & address of my local distributor in Canada. Very impressive. Michael You should be aware that the t.5 and t.1 times only really apply at full power. At less than full power the flash cuts the flash output and the decay curve is non-existent (which is what t.5 and t.1 are measuring). It's really not that much of a problem unless you need to freeze action at full power. In studio strobes (that are not IGBT based), the t.5 and t.1 times are important, and they actually get slower as you power down the flash. So you really need know what type of flash you are using. Strobist: Rise (and Fall) of The Machines: Understanding t.5/t.1 Times

03-17-2011, 10:29 AM	#29
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by alohadave You should be aware that the t.5 and t.1 times only really apply at full power. At less than full power the flash cuts the flash output and the decay curve is non-existent (which is what t.5 and t.1 are measuring). Good point. I should update my pttl guide page to better reflect that. There's some nice actual graphs (from a canon speedlite) here: Discharge Curves of Electronic Flash at Different Power Settings where one can see that even at half power the abrupt cutoff is a big deal.