[liukaitc]

I feel annoying, unable to got satisfied shot in these kind of photo.
can always see white reflection on the celiing.

is bounce to celiing not a good option here? sure if i crop the celiing part, it will be fine...but anway that inculde celiing still got consistant light exposure??? what about flash staight to the person??? would be better?

I just feel frustrated shooting flash indoor.

[Frogfish]

Oh yes. I've had exactly the same frustration with a Metz 50 on my K5 at events similar to the one you were shooting at.
I think the answer is an on-camera softbox, I bought one and it works beautifully in testing - I've not had a chance to try it at an event yet though.

Another option which works surprisingly well is to diffuse your on-camera pop-up - it is surprisingly powerful (but not powerful enough to light up the ceiling) and with a little cloth diffuser on it gives a lovely soft and wide light.

Here's a shot taken with pop-up and cloth diffuser. Notice particularly the lack of flash reflections on the ceiling and in their faces (except for a minute amount on the lady directly in front of the camera).

[clockwork247]

I feel annoying, unable to got satisfied shot in these kind of photo.
can always see white reflection on the celiing.

is bounce to celiing not a good option here? sure if i crop the celiing part, it will be fine...but anway that inculde celiing still got consistant light exposure??? what about flash staight to the person??? would be better?

I just feel frustrated shooting flash indoor.

well, the 1st pic you're experiencing light drop off, generally speaking you do not want to shoot things in a line where people are lining up vertically, light drop off is huge especially when you're close to the subject (2X the distance = 1/4 the light), so if the front person is properly exposed, the back is not (like way not properly exposed lol). the 2nd picture feels to me like the flash was hitting those people straight into the face. but I could be wrong, it looks like the light is a little harsh to me.

Generally speaking it's hard, at weddings they have a frontal setup where they have the lightning setup and ready for that 1 spot to take pictures... if you walk around generally it's not ideal, you can bring along reflecting panels and stuff but that's not also ideal lol. I'm actually not sure, best I've come up with is making a huge ass difuser on your flash and hope for the best.

[jstevewhite]

First thing's first, get the flash off the shoe. Get a cable and a bracket. If you do this sort of work a lot, it's a lifesaver. Then, a softbox/diffuser; Lumiquest makes a 10x10" that works extremely well for this sort of event. It can even work out very well, when you know you're shooting in a venue like this, if you put a gel on your flash to make it ~3500K; makes the lighting look ever-so-much more natural, rather than the blue foreground and yellow background. The softbox and bracket will take care of your burnt out areas on the forehead and cheeks; the gel will make the color match better.

But yeah, the second image is problematic because of the distance. I see it was shot at 18mm, so you were fairly close to them; if you can back off, the fade will be less obvious (because, like clockwork said, the inverse square law is a bitch). It's like, if your front subject is 4ft away, and the second subject is 6ft away, the second will get half the light (about; it's more like 45%). But if your front subject is 10 ft away, and the second is 12 feet, they'll get ~70% of the light, or within a half-stop (50% is one stop).

[adpo]

is it just me or is the flash much more frontal than bounce? i'm confused as to how you're getting so many hotspots from a bounced flash.

anywho, for the first shot, i see you're at 18mm, so you're probably pretty close. For that, angle your flash straight up and point the camera more towards the subject. This ensures that the light from the bounce is aimed right at them. Set flash power pretty high, since bouncing straight up isnt as efficient as bouncing from an angle. (sounds silly, but trust me, it makes sense)
set the zoom to a fairly wide setting, about 28-35mm.
and now the explanation: when bouncing flash, try imagining all the rays of light originating from the flash. When bouncing, this means it should go out, hit the surface 1/2 of the distance to the subject, then travel the last half and hit the subject. Since you're really close, this means that the best you're going to get is to bounce straight up.
flash efficiency is really low in this because all the power is going up and down, with very little directed towards your subject. this is because of several reasons:
a. you're shooting in portrait, so a bounce card wont do much
b. there is very light towards the edge of the flash's spread to hit the subject to act as a fill light.
c. physics. The bouncing off ceilings eats up light, and since all your light is bounced when shooting that close, you're losing a lot of light.
d. you're shooting really wide. shooting at a wider zoom setting means you lose more power since it is more spread out.
had they been farther off, you might've had the chance to tilt the flash more forward, resulting in some fill light directly from the flash as well as light from the bounce. In those cases, its okay to turn flash power down in order to avoid hotspots and overexposure (too much fill is not a good thing)

as for setting zoom wide, its for spill control. Since there are several subjects with a moderate amount of depth, you want quite a lot of spill. This means a wider beam of light is needed to light more subjects.

hope this helps

I have never found why you would need all these fancy flash modifiers mentioned. From what i've experienced, a bounce card and clear understanding of how to use your flash is enough for 90% of situations. The last 10 are when im shooting large groups and wishing i had lightsphere

[adpo]

on camera flash doesnt have to look bad, it just takes a bit of practice
here's a shot with a slightly different situation, but shows that it works with practice
flash had much tighter spread in this shot, about 50-85mm, bounced off a fairly low ceiling, using about 1/8th power. Shot in portrait, so no bounce card

[adpo]

one last thing, if you see the reflection of the flash in the ceiling and it's behind your subject, your flash is pointing in the wrong direction

[steve1307]

one last thing, if you see the reflection of the flash in the ceiling and it's behind your subject, your flash is pointing in the wrong direction

Yes, when looking saw the shot it thought looks like the flash is angled up at 30-45degrees just over the head of the first subject. Vertical bounce with a diffuser would work better to spread the light to a all 3 girls. The light hitting the ceiling directly will be out of your frame so no bright spot on the ceiling.

If you are using P-TTL, Av, Tv, X or P whatever, your shot including the bright spot means the rest of the frame is darker to average out the metering. Getting the bright white spot out of the frame will alter your metering so more natural light from the scene you want to photograph.

Cant tell what ISO you are using but 800 or (maybe 1600) with a K-5 gives more ambient light and make more use of the flash that is spread everywhere (not weakened) from bouncing off the ceiling). In P-TTL it uses less power too.


BTW adpo WTF is going on in that photo, hope that wasnt taken at a wedding.

[jstevewhite]

I have never found why you would need all these fancy flash modifiers mentioned. From what i've experienced, a bounce card and clear understanding of how to use your flash is enough for 90% of situations. The last 10 are when im shooting large groups and wishing i had lightsphere

Because one frequently is not provided a handy white surface to bounce flash off of. Try *any* bounce flash tricks in, say, an auditorium, church, or gymnasium with high, dark, or high AND dark ceilings (places where many events, including weddings, are held). The off-camera softbox works in every situation, not just the ones that are 'easy'.

If you're shooting really big groups, get a couple of flashes and umbrellas and stands and use those instead of a camera mounted unit. Of course, the on-camera softbox ( or other diffuser if you have a low enough white ceiling )

Besides, you're talking $29 for the diffuser and $75 for the bracket, and you can shoot either portrait or landscape with it. Sure, if you're not making a living with it, it's not necessary, but if you are, it pays for itself quickly.

[liukaitc]

actually there were like total 5-7 photographers there. but they all bascially use bare flash, no any accsessory on it.(well a few use Stofen Omni Bounce kind thing). They are all professonal from different press.

I think in these kind of event, photographer do not have time to use any off camera set up, and it is like surgical, if u not fast, u miss. so many photographer there. u can not see hey wait for me, and the event keep going.

I actually the only one have flash accessory on, i use a bendable bounce card. and it happened that some other photographers came to tell me this thing is too long and block their view behind.................

[liukaitc]

thanks for input...the flash skill is like doing math....so hard to comprehend....
so bascially when point like 30 to 45 degree when point straight up?
is that as simply as if subject is a bit far away point 45 degree, if it is close to me point straight up????

[liukaitc]

I did buy some flash accessory, but none of them that I know what exactly situation to use of..........I do not grasp their functionality so far.........

I have these...well, I just feel they are not used for potrait or indoor event like this one, feel like they are for macro

LumiQuest Photographic Accessories | Pocket Bouncer

Speedlight Prokit UK Europe

ExpoImaging - Rogue FlashBenders

[jstevewhite]

I did buy some flash accessory, but none of them that I know what exactly situation to use of..........I do not grasp their functionality so far.........

I have these...well, I just feel they are not used for potrait or indoor event like this one, feel like they are for macro

LumiQuest Photographic Accessories | Pocket Bouncer

Speedlight Prokit UK Europe

ExpoImaging - Rogue FlashBenders

Nope, none of those are specifically for macro, although you could use the Lumiquest one that way, and perhaps the bendable one.

Not certain what sort of event you're shooting there; either way, off-camera brackets aren't necessarily slow or large; if it's a public event with many photographers, it's great to make room for them, and nice to share, but it's not like a lumiquest 10x10" softbox is a showstopper.

Of those choices, the Lumiquest is the best bet, but it soaks up a lot more space than the lumiquest softboxes do, and provide less diffusion, IMO. The Lumiquest you have is meant to be used with the flash pointing straight up, reflecting off the big white diffuser, and spreading out from there. This gives a larger "light source" (softening shadows) and moves the "light source" further from the lens axis, reducing red-eye significantly.

[liukaitc]

Nope, none of those are specifically for macro, although you could use the Lumiquest one that way, and perhaps the bendable one.

Not certain what sort of event you're shooting there; either way, off-camera brackets aren't necessarily slow or large; if it's a public event with many photographers, it's great to make room for them, and nice to share, but it's not like a lumiquest 10x10" softbox is a showstopper.

Of those choices, the Lumiquest is the best bet, but it soaks up a lot more space than the lumiquest softboxes do, and provide less diffusion, IMO. The Lumiquest you have is meant to be used with the flash pointing straight up, reflecting off the big white diffuser, and spreading out from there. This gives a larger "light source" (softening shadows) and moves the "light source" further from the lens axis, reducing red-eye significantly.

thanks, but does those softbox better suited for close-up shot?
if i shot wide angle, will it provide consistant light through whole scene?

for example this one i shot...seems fine....by just use flash and bounce card....but anyway the light is good there, i find even without flash the photo looks good too...

[jstevewhite]

thanks, but does those softbox better suited for close-up shot?
if i shot wide angle, will it provide consistant light through whole scene?

for example this one i shot...seems fine....by just use flash and bounce card....but anyway the light is good there, i find even without flash the photo looks good too...

That shot is very good, but I think you put your finger on it when you said it looked good even without flash.

Diffusers increase the size of the light source, making shadows softer; as you get farther away, the edges get sharper again; OTOH, they're still softer than the (essentially point-source) light your un-diffused flash makes pointed at them, and works when you don't have a nice, flat, white ceiling to bounce your light off of.