[philbaum]

Okay, i was just trying to be provocative, didn't mean to demean the dedicated TTL users.

i see so many new photographers who are trying to figure out the best PTTL flash for their Pentax camera.

And i did much the same when i bought my first flash, a Metz48. Since them i've been buying Yongnuo YN460II (about $40) and YN-560(about $70) manual flashes. And i've been finding that well designed manual flashes are a delight to work with. The modern manual flashes have 7, 8 or more steps of power between 1/1 full power and 1/128 partial power (or 1/64 power in the YN460 II).

In some shots, I thought my 1/128th power level was not working, only to find out it was such a low power level that it was impossible to detect on my cam. lcd screen. Be careful though on buying older Pentax flashes and even the Vivitars. Some of the older Pentax flashes offer only 2 manual power levels and the Vivitar only goes down to 1/16th power level - a bit less flexibility.

Good manual flashes are easy to adjust for power and zoom levels even in dark situations. For example the Yongnuo LED points which are next to various power and function options, are far faster to adjust than the LCD screen on the back of the more expensive pttl compatible Metz48 (now the Metz50)

I'd also suggest for new folks, that the money you save on flashes is better spent on inexpensive radio triggers. A modern cls Nikon flash, for example, runs for $460 I believe, as a friend told me hers slid off the seat of her car and died when it hit the car floor. The first Yongnuo YN460II flash was being hand carried by me when it hit a table and then fell to the sidewalk where it died. Replacement cost was $40. Genetic Infinity V5's radio transceivers (usable as transmitter or receiver) run at $59 pair, while pocket wizard transcievers run for $600 a pair. There are even more inexpensive radio triggers out there but i have no experience with them.

Recently, I "misplaced" a YN flash on top of a V5 radio receiver, i think in one of my evening forays to a nearby park, i forgot to pick it up at the end of the evening. Gone back twice to search for it and turned my name into the park office to no avail. Total cost of the 2 flashes i dropped or forgot to pick up, including the radio trigger i forgot to pick up (this is all quite embarassing as i try to be really careful about things like this) is a total of $110. If this had been "professional" quality stuff, the cost of these items would have been ($450 x 2 + $300=$1200)

So here is a manual flash on a V5 radio trigger about 20 feet from the camera i did last night: (for use in an upcoming club contest theme)




Here is a picture of a truck in very dark nightime conditions using a handheld manual flash which i triggered about 10-12 times while walking around the truck with a long exposure.:




So my pitch is - one can have a lot of fun with manual flashes in a far more inexpensive way than relying on the latest automatic ttl technology. If you are a professional and doing weddings, portraits - then thats a different animal entirely and i won't presume to advise on that.

Here's an excellent link to a flash site that has infor/reviews on the Yongnuo and other mfr flashes:

Yongnuo YN-560 Speedlite Review (Manual Flash) | Speedlights.net

Best wishes,

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Last edited by philbaum; 08-07-2011 at 02:01 AM.

[ripit]

That might be fine for objects that don't move and don,t mind waiting for you to take another shot but its not so good for a moving object. It also won't allow rank armatures like me to learn backwards. The camera can do everything so I have usable equipment but I can move into manual control as I learn. As I learn, I have been finding that I can do a better job with focus and exposure than my camera can, but there are times when I could never do it fast enough.
Same principal applies to lenses. Great full manual glass can be had much cheaper but sometimes a full auto lens has it place.
flashes will never be an issue for me though. I got a dozen or more flashes ranging from small to big, 3 slave modules, and 3 ttl control modules (works fine on my ds) for about 100. I could get pttl modules for 20-50$ if I ever upgraded my body.

[philbaum]

Ripit, sure, those are limitations.

Whatever works for folks is great - i'm just pointing out that manual flashes can be quite effective - which most people know anyway. Speed isn't a problem unless the light changes are drastic and every photo is critical, e.g. weddings maybe.

[adwb]

Ripit, sure, those are limitations.

Whatever works for folks is great - i'm just pointing out that manual flashes can be quite effective - which most people know anyway. Speed isn't a problem unless the light changes are drastic and every photo is critical, e.g. weddings maybe.

Phil I agree that manual in most circumstances is best for guaranteed results.
I have found that with practise using 1 or 2 W's on stands i don't need to use a flash meter as i can guess the results. It takes practise obviously but surprisingly little and the one thing most folks don't realise is the amount of latitude you actually have in manual. you can be up to two stops out maybe sometimes even more with ambient light included from what our flash meter suggests and still get
good usable well lit images.
PTTL has its place I use a Metz48 and a Metz cl45 hammerhead for weddings i the church and reception but for the signature shots I use the Yongnuos on stands with triggers . Remote lighting is less harsh than direct even bounced light

[adr1an]

It also won't allow rank armatures like me to learn backwards... but there are times when I could never do it fast enough.

I would disagree. I'm a rank amateur. I haven't used p-TTL really other than to go 'gee, so thats how it works' sitting here in my study
p-TTL lets people, especially newbies, get "a" shot, but I would argue it wont get them "the" shot... if that makes sense.

With Manual - yes - it does take maybe an hour of playing initially to 'get it'. After that - its repeatable, controllable and just as quick because Light behaves the same way - every time. Once you understand that - then you are far more in control. And p-TTL then is no longer the crutch that so many people treat it as.. Use it by all means to make "run and gun" situations at say a Wedding 'easier' (as mentioned above) or capturing the "Defendant" coming out of the Court Room at the Trial of the Century - but don't use it because 'its the only way I know'...
The other benefit to Manual:

Every. Shot. Is. The. Same. Guaranteed.
Unlike what can. Occasionally. Happen when using . p-tTL

Subject 10 m's away, shooting ISO400, F8 ? 50mm @ 1/16 should do it... Not enough light ? press one button on the back of the flash to move to 1/8 OR open up to F5.6... fixed.. It comes down to taking that initial hour to learn how to drive your flash. Once. Then you can pretty much pick up *any* flash and *any* camera.. and take the same quality images you always have despite it now being a Canikon ENikkor-1000.... no worry about figuring out Cannons e-TTL or Nikons TTL...

And unlike with Camera Settings - there isn't really a concept of "Working Backwards" with TTL... You either shoot TTL and it does the lot with some minor EV overrides and you are forever at the mercy of p-TTL - or You shoot manual. p-TTL doesn't teach you why it used 1/16... or even why it used 1/16 the first time around and 1/64 the very next frame... Hence why it becomes a "Crutch" if thats all you know... It definitely wont teach you why 24mm Zoom on the flash is different to 105mm - and why you might want a 24mm Beam Spread even though you are shooting at 70mm. Or why you might want to Bounce off a side wall rather than a ceiling. Or why you might want to actually shoot the flash directly over their heads to feather the light.

Much like your example with "Manual" override there is 'fast ways' to work with Manual Flash... BTW you know there is a real quick way you can do what you explained:

In your custom menus, Set the "Green button in M Mode" to be "Tv Shift"... this will give you Manual Mode - but with AV Mode like behaviour - which is what you ideally want when using flash (Since when flash lighting, Aperture controls Flash, Shutter controls Ambient, ISO controls everything). Now in M mode, you can press the "Green Button" to get a "Baseline Exposure" that would be the same as if you where in AV mode.. but now you can happily dial up and down the aperture and shutter speed using the front and rear edials.... all in literally fractions of a second.. Too high a shutter speed ? Press OK and turn the front wheel to change the ISO. Or close up the Aperture with the rear dial. At least on a K20D - I can achieve all of this with my eye pressed to the viewfinder and just my 'fingers doing the walking'.

Don't get me wrong - Auto-Everything-P-Mode-Green-Mode is nice... but I personally feel I may as well just use a P&S if I'm going to do that.... Because I'm just 'recording a moment' based on what the Camera reckons... not 'creating an image' based on what my minds eye sees.... Sometimes P-Mode sees the same thing as my minds eye.. .more often than not.. it doesn't... (however this is probably just proof I have a warped mind...)

Flash isn't scary. Crack open a can of your favorite poison, pull up a chair at strobist.com , and read Strobist: Lighting 101 and then keep reading through the On Assignments and Lighting 102 sections the next week or so. Your Flash Budget Will Thank You. (mmm GN56 Flash, 1/128 Power, Tilt, Zoom, Swivel, Built In Bounce Card + Diffuser, Optical Slave, PC-Sync Port, External Power, Brand New with Warranty, $60... I'll take two thanks! )

I should stress - I really am a rank amateur - I only got my first ever DSLR late last year..... So don't consider any of the above even remotely 'informed'
But I do see so many people 'relying' on p-TTL to accomplish flash use... when they really could instead use p-TTL as a 'tool' or 'aid' rather than a 'crutch'. All of the images you see in http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozadr1an/sets/72157626153947839/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozadr1an/sets/72157627083460285/ are done with Manual Flash. None of them are stellar or breath taking - but considering I controlled every element of light in the shots I'm personally quite impressed with them - and infinitely more 'chuffed' with the idea I made them and not p-TTL..

Nutshell: Don't think for a moment that p-TTL will 'teach you' Manual Flash - it doesn't. It'll just let you 'use a flash' .. as long as it has p-TTL. On a Pentax.

[ripit]

Perhaps my situation of being a newbie would fall more under your run and gun wedding photography example (mostly family photos with fast moving small children that are not going to pose for every shot). I can see the value in doing it manually. I have learned that I can get better pictures with manual exposure and manual focus than when I leave it up to the camera. Yesterday I was shooting at the strong museum of play (no flash this time as it gets people mad when you blind their kids and the walls/ceiling are beyond terrible for bouncing a flash). I was shooting with an auto focus lens (because I got a new lens and wanted to try it out). I then changed to a manual focus lens (left the auto focus in the car). Towards the end they had a mini parade (way of marching kids out the door when they close) and blew almost every shot as I couldn't focus as fast as the action. The same principles would apply to flash. Manual control has its values (and I agree that under some circumstances it yields better results), but if you don't even have auto operation abilities (lens or flash), you can not take advantage of it under circumstances where it might out perform you.
Fyi I am not trying discount manual control. I have learned that it can yield better results as the camera isn't intelligent and doesn't always meter (or focus) on the right object, nor does it do it to perfect levels, but having the ability for auto operation available can be handy in situations where your ability to focus or set exposure or set a flash are not fast enough to get the shot.

I'm just curious how many of the people commenting here have shot much film?

[adwb]

nga camera since i was about 20

[adwb]

I'm just curious how many of the people commenting here have shot much film?

well I'm 61 and been using a camera since I ws 20 which should give a indication!! mostly reversal stuff

[ripit]

The reason that I ask about film is that I started in digital and never shot film. I have no idea how to use a light meter and haven't got a clue how to read and use the scale on a flash. I don't think I have ever used the distance scale on a lens either. I'm used to instant feedback and if I didn't get what I want I can immediately re shoot (If possible). To set exposure (in manual mode) I stop down meter, shoot and then adjust based on what I have.
I would think that those that have shot more film might have learned to do it right (no instant feedback available so you have to get it right based on settings) so there is a lot less of a learning curve. I agree that it would be valuable to learn but I would be starting from scratch. It's not just a matter of learning to do it, but also a matter of getting enough practice to do it right. In the mean time, I'm glad the camera and or flash can do it for me when needed. I can think of many shot I blew shooting manual because I forgot to readjust a setting (I know how to do it but it takes practice to do it well). I should mention that I just started buying manual lenses a few months ago so I'm at the beginning of the learning curve. Unfortunately i'm not sure that my flashes have many manual settings either (3 flash powers if I recall right, maybe the generic thyristor module had more, I can not find it right now to check.

My whole point is that I agree being able to do it all manually is a worth while skill and in some (many) circumstances will yield beter results. I also think that having the ability to do it auto is a very valuable ability.

As far as cost effectiveness, you are talking to a cheap skate here (read poor) so I can agree with your arguments from that perspective. Even when I could afford a few hundred dollars for a flash (when my wife worked to and before kids) I wasn't willing to pay several hundred dollars for one (manual might have been a good option there had I discovered it). In hind site now that I have a shelf full of flashes (scored big around wolf cameras bankruptcy), its probably a good thing as I only occasionally use them (I prefer fast glass over a flash whenever possible and within the limits of what I can afford).
It's just my take on it though. not every ones needs are the same.

[adwb]

you know in reality manual flash is not complicated most old manual flash guns have a ditance / aperture table on the back so:
1 set you camera and flash gun to the same ISO setting
2 set your camera shutter speed to the flash sync speed or lower normally 180th on a Pentax
3 measure or estimate the distance to your subject and read the aperture from the table and set that on the camera.
voilà manual flash image !!
to use as a fill flash :
step1 and and 2 again see what the camera meter tells you to set that aperture to [green button]
on the flash table look for the distance that matches that aperture and measure it from the subject stand at that distance or put the flash at that distance and
voilà manual fill flash image.
beware of high voltages on old manual flash guns if fitted direct to the gun, its safer to use a wire trigger or a wireless trigger with old manual flashes the dozens of thread on that subject look them up if you don't know about remote triggering.

[philbaum]

adr1an - agree about pttl. It either works or one had no idea of why it didn't, nor how to change it particularly.

ripit - the analogy with autofocus works to a degree, but then it doesn't compare directly to flash. Focus has to be either on or its off and generally not usable. Flash is much more forgiving. If you haven't clipped the highlights, pp will generally recover it except if using film. Using blinkies will tell you in the preview if you're using way too much light for a scene to recover.

twitch had a terrific post recently under K5 flash subject, where he explained that in flashwork, the first step was to get the ambient scene within -1 to -3 ev, then use flash to fill it in. initial setup for him was to use iso from 100-400 iso. With manual, you can see exactly how far underexposed the scene is from the meter scale. at nightime where one doesn't have much ambient light to over ride, 1/16th manual flash is usually fine for fill-in, in daylight situations, fill-in may require 1/2 manual flash. Composition is complicated, but flash isn't so much, anymore

What is counter-intuitive with flash, is that shutter speed only affects ambient light, as the flash speed is usually so much faster like from 1/1000 to 1/40,000s. Although on www.speedlights.net, they had a table which showed that full power for many common flashes, that speed was down to about 1/300 sec at full power and didn't reach 1/1000s till 1/2 power.

I only started serious photo work in 2007, so don't tell me about being a rank amateur - i'm as rank as they come :-) Nikon supposedly has the most advanced flash system, in cls i think they can use infrared to adjust power levels of different remote flashes without leaving the camera. But as i said in the original post, the cost of cls-"creative light system" flashes is way high. And the funny thing was, i saw this instructive video by a professsional Nikon guy give this talk about fill-in flash, and he was going around the studio adjusting the remote flashes by hand. Also you still have to adjust direction and height of remote flashes locally anyway, so cls isn't all that work relieving.

For the first time in my short photography life, i feel like i finally understand flash, and can use it creatively - and thats a great feeling. And its all in thanks to the help i've gotten mainly from PF. Go Pentax Forums!!!

[ripit]

Out of curiosity, how do you adapt for the fact that iso 200 is not the same on different digital cameras (or so I have read), and how would you adapt to say for instance bouncing the flash (I assume that the scales are to set the camera with the flash fireing directly at the subject)? Is there a little trial and error (set it, shoot, check the picture and readjust) or is it a matter of learning your equipment? fyi my flashes don't have advanced features if it matters. The biggest has a 130 guide number, bounce, swivel, manual zoom and secondary fill flash but no advanced features (so the reviews say, I don't know whats missing besides power zoom). Its modular and I have ttl modules and slave modules, and a generic single contact thyristor module. the single contact module has a trigger plug but I have no idea about compatibility with my ds. fyi they are promaster 5000 series (5200, 5250, 5500, 5550, 5700, 5750?, 9550 with two modular flash handles/off camera cord). mine are all quantaray rebadges. I also have a quantaray qtb7500a (also part of the modular promasters but no idea on the promaster version) and a broken qdc-800 (haven't tried to fix it yet). So far as I know, none have more than 3 power settings. I hav e few of the 5250 versions (they recycle almost instantly with fresh charged zimh batteries and I got spares if that burns one up).
as far as non modular I have a couple of quantaray qbsz-370 (smaller thyristor flash though it does have swivel, bounce and manual zoom, and trigger port? its low voltage too.

[philbaum]

Out of curiosity, how do you adapt for the fact that iso 200 is not the same on different digital cameras (or so I have read), .

I'm not switching between different camera makes for this type of work. generally only using K5 although i have a Canon PS.

and how would you adapt to say for instance bouncing the flash (I assume that the scales are to set the camera with the flash fireing directly at the
subject)? Is there a little trial and error (set it, shoot, check the picture
and readjust) or is it a matter of learning your equipment?

I generally don't bounce flash for the creative work i do, but if i did i'd move the power up 1 step for the bounce and a coupla steps for the distance depending on the bounce distance and the fact that you only get 1.4xdistance for each doubling of power. Mostly its trial and error mixed in with some general knowledge of how flash reacts differently from parameters than ambient.

fyi my flashes don't have advanced features if it matters.

I have one flash with advance features that i would use with the few people pictures i do. the other 2 flashes have no advanced features and no distance scales on the back - they are the easiest to use when setting zoom and power levels though.

The biggest has a 130 guide number, bounce, swivel, manual zoom and secondary fill flash but no advanced features (so the reviews say, I don't know whats missing besides power zoom). Its modular and I have ttl modules and slave modules, and a generic single contact thyristor module. the single
contact module has a trigger plug but I have no idea about compatibility with my
ds. fyi they are promaster 5000 series (5200, 5250, 5500, 5550, 5700, 5750?,
9550 with two modular flash handles/off camera cord). mine are all quantaray
rebadges. I also have a quantaray qtb7500a (also part of the modular promasters but no idea on the promaster version) and a broken qdc-800 (haven't tried to fix it yet). So far as I know, none have more than 3 power settings. I hav e few of the 5250 versions (they recycle almost instantly with fresh charged zimh
batteries and I got spares if that burns one up). as far as non modular I have a couple of quantaray qbsz-370 (smaller thyristor flash though it does have swivel, bounce and manual zoom, and trigger port? its low voltage too.

Hopefully you can find out if any of these ttl modules are compatible with pttl. If not, your second best hope is to get an auto thyristor setup or two out of the bunch. After that, look into getting an inexpensive radio trigger setup and seeing if the above collection allows you to do some interesting scene work. What i found out is that the 3 older Pentax flashes i had didn't offer much flexibility in manual control compared to today's manual flashes, i.e. maybe 2 power levels compared to the 8 i got with YN-560. My Metz 48 also offers 8 manual power levels. I had all kinds of ideas of using older flashes until i found out that not being able to control power effectively with manual mode (and only 2 power settings) was limiting for their use.

Best wishes and keep working it, you'll get there,

[ripit]

As far as different cameras having different iso, I was referring to the markings on the back of the flash being designed for film iso and iso on digital cameras not matching (all the flashes have the little slider calculator thing on the back and I figured iso must play some part in it). I only have an ist-ds right now.

"Mostly its trial and error mixed in with some general knowledge of how flash reacts differently from parameters than ambient."
That's what I was wondering. I guess you need a little trial and error and the more you learn your equipment, the less trial and error?

"Hopefully you can find out if any of these ttl modules are compatible with pttl. If not, your second best hope is to get an auto thyristor setup or two out of the bunch."
I have the ist-ds which does have a ttl sensor in the body (it can do ttl or pttl). I read that there may be some limitations such as what shooting modes you can use but I haven't ran into any problems. It does meter correctly in ttl. Is there any advantage to p-ttl? I can get an older pttl module for 20$ (it's a discontinued model). It has only been tested with a few cameras but according to promaster will work with any current model camera. There is a new module available for 50$ but the only diffrence is that it can be reprogrammed should pentax decide to change from pttl to something else. The older one is not programmable. The generic module with some sort of a port that I have is an auto thyristor module. It lacks the focus assist light though (my body doesn't have one). They run about 40-50$ as ther are a current model (paid 35$ for mine). I have a couple of slave modules that convert any of the flashes to slave flashes too (they run 4050$ ea).

fyi, I might have implied these are older flashes. half are the older series designed for film, half are the matching newer ones designed for digital and are technically still current models (promaster seems to be phasing them out though). Acording to reports, the flashes are the same (you can cut a plastic tab off a new module and it works fine with an old flash) but the new modules are defiantly different from the old modules (except generic ones like slave). the biggest flash with module runs two and change (I paid about 5 cents on the dollar for new units when wolf camera dumped millions of inventory during bankruptcy). The 2 promaster modules I have cost 10 times as much though (normal price).

[adr1an]

Is there any advantage to p-ttl?

Its rather that new bodies don't support TTL - only p-TTL, and the two are not compatible. Any model K-10+ you are stuck with needing p-TTL specifically for any automation beyond built in Thyristor 'auto' flashes...