studio strobes and hs flashes question

piskota · 08-31-2011, 10:30 PM

studio strobes and hs flashes. do they work together?
how do they sync together? i think here at p-ttl flashes. at higher sync speed (beyond 1/160s) the hs flash can work with the studio strobes? or how to whole process of sync is taking place.
in my case> metz 48 af-1 and elinchrom d-lite2.
thanks. piskota

adpo · 09-01-2011, 12:40 AM

you're stuck at sync speeds if you're going to be using studio strobes, since studio strobes do not support pttl and hss. you trigger em like any other flashes: radio triggers, sync cables, etc

philbaum · 09-01-2011, 01:23 AM

You can use up to 1/180s depending on which exposure steps you select, 1/2 or 1/3s.

**Digitalis** · 09-01-2011, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by piskota

studio strobes and hs flashes. do they work together? how do they sync together? i think here at p-ttl flashes. at higher sync speed (beyond 1/160s) the hs flash can work with the studio strobes? or how to whole process of sync is taking place. in my case> metz 48 af-1 and elinchrom d-lite2.

sorry to tell you this but nonobloc flash heads cannot do HSS due to the fact that HSS requires the flash to strobe producing a relatively continuous light for the narrow slit that the shutter uses to obtain faster effective shutter speeds. The true synch speed is the fastest you can use (1/180th) for pentax cameras because that is the fastest speed where the shutter can fully open and leave the entirety of the sensor exposed - any faster shutter speeds than that, and the shutter curtains get in the way of the flash.

The Elinchrom D-Lites are not P-TTL compatible. Though the metz flash is.

amoringello · 09-01-2011, 01:52 AM

Other brand cameras may allow this to work ... but with the limitation that shortly after the sync speed the shutter curtains will cut off the frame before the flash has fired enough to expose that area of the sensor. This can be used for effect in some cases for small pushes beyond the sync speed. Although you really won't be able to go too far before too much of the frame is affected. Depends how slowly your flash fires. Slow burning flashes could illuminate the area long enough to cover a good portion of the frame past the sync time.

Sadly, PENTAX has crippled the camera and disables the simple hotshot (for non-PTTL flashes) and the PC-Sync port when your shutter speed is faster than 1/180.
So even if you know what is going on, PENTAX has decided you are not allowed to push your equipment to do extra-ordinary things.

If you're not familiar with how the shutter curtain affects flash at high speeds, use google or search here for detailed explanations.
You'll find this subject comes up every once in a while.

tuco · 09-01-2011, 07:55 AM

If you are in a studio environment with these strobes, your effective shutter speed is the speed of the flash burst and not the camera if the ambient light does not contribute to the exposure. And that is usually easy to control indoors.

piskota · 09-01-2011, 11:26 AM

thanks. for me the question was if i should go for p-ttl flashes for studio work (with monohead blocks) to speed up a bit the sync speed and what are the possibilities. if there are serious technical restrictions regarding this issue (in case of non-hss compatible studio strobes) the sync speed remains below 1/200

in my case.... and i will buy ttl flashes to complement the existing strobes.

philbaum.... You can use up to 1/180s depending on which exposure steps you select, 1/2 or 1/3s. -thanks. i changed from 1/160 to 1/180.

but...
tuco says : If you are in a studio environment with these strobes, your effective shutter speed is the speed of the flash burst and not the camera if the ambient light does not contribute to the exposure.

-> i just wonder if is it worth it to experience with this limitations? the flash burst duration and the shutter speed. to do that i should be able to communicate with the studio strobes beyond 1/180s speed and in this case i need a p-ttl flash unit. well?
thanks a lot. piskota

tuco · 09-01-2011, 12:32 PM

Here is one method. Usually studio strobes can be set to be triggered by another flash. Setup your strobes and connect one flash to the camera by, say, a sync cord or on the hot. You'll need to balance the flash ratios for the key, fill, hair and background, for example.

Set your camera to its x-sync. Make sure the ambient light in the room is low enough. Try a test shot at your sync speed and selected aperture with no flash(es). If it's grossly under exposed or black then the only light to record the exposure is coming from the flashes. You'll typically get 1/600 to 1/10,000+ "shutter speed" depending on the strobe, strobe design and power level.

You can usually look up what the T.1 and/or T.5 flash duration times for various power levels for your strobe units if they are a from a reputable brand. Some strobes have digital circuit designs that cut the flash burst off instantly as apposed to a typical RC circuit decay where T.1 and T.5 times tell you how much of the flash strength has diminished in a time period.

Here is an example: The Alien Bee B400 strobe has a T.1 flash duration of 1/2000 second (at full power) 1/1000 second (at 1/32 power) where T.1 means 10% of the duration above maximum remains (in other words, it's about gone). Your hs flash unit, on the other hand, gets shorter durations with lower power settings and probably is around 1/10,000 easily at its lower power settings.

The Paul Buff Einstein studio strobe has between 1/588 to 1/13,500 depending on power level.

amoringello · 09-01-2011, 01:09 PM

An important question is what type of subject are your trying to photograph?

- If it is a subject outdoors, and you are looking to decrease ambient light... then you need PTTL flashes in order to support the higher shutter speeds. Just note that flash power decreases greatly in this mode, so you need to be very close to the subject or use multiple flashes.
(or as some will certainly point out, you could use ND filters to reduce ambient light for the "slow" sync speed, and super-power your studio strobes to overcome both the ambient and the NDs).

- If the subject is fast moving like a water droplet, popping balloon, etc... then your shutter speed does not matter. Darken the room, put the camera in bulb mode, and time the flash to catch the action you want. Fast shutter speed will not be fast enough nor its timing reliable enough to catch these types of subjects. You need to rely on fast acting flashes. (in which case, speed light style lights are often MUCH faster than studio strobes)

adpo · 09-01-2011, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by piskota

to do that i should be able to communicate with the studio strobes beyond 1/180s speed and in this case i need a p-ttl flash unit. well?

not quite. The reason you need to be at sync speed is so that the entire frame of the sensor is exposed to the flash. If you had used a faster shutter speed, it wouldn't matter how fast the flash duration is, you are going to lose light in your frame since part of the frame will be covered by the shutter curtain. The reason flash acts as your shutter speed in a studio environment is because it is the only light source, since you'll be using a pretty small aperture to negate any existing ambient. Therefore, the duration of the flash exposure determines the length of the exposure itself.
The way HSS works is that instead of flashing once, it flashes continuously over a brief period of time so that it acts in similar fashion to a regular continuous light.

08-31-2011, 10:30 PM	#1
piskota Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Sfantu Gheorghe Posts: 48	studio strobes and hs flashes question studio strobes and hs flashes. do they work together? how do they sync together? i think here at p-ttl flashes. at higher sync speed (beyond 1/160s) the hs flash can work with the studio strobes? or how to whole process of sync is taking place. in my case> metz 48 af-1 and elinchrom d-lite2. thanks. piskota

09-01-2011, 07:55 AM	#6
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	If you are in a studio environment with these strobes, your effective shutter speed is the speed of the flash burst and not the camera if the ambient light does not contribute to the exposure. And that is usually easy to control indoors. Last edited by tuco; 09-01-2011 at 09:26 AM.

09-01-2011, 11:26 AM	#7
piskota Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Sfantu Gheorghe Posts: 48 Original Poster	re:thanks thanks. for me the question was if i should go for p-ttl flashes for studio work (with monohead blocks) to speed up a bit the sync speed and what are the possibilities. if there are serious technical restrictions regarding this issue (in case of non-hss compatible studio strobes) the sync speed remains below 1/200 in my case.... and i will buy ttl flashes to complement the existing strobes. philbaum.... You can use up to 1/180s depending on which exposure steps you select, 1/2 or 1/3s. -thanks. i changed from 1/160 to 1/180. but... tuco says : If you are in a studio environment with these strobes, your effective shutter speed is the speed of the flash burst and not the camera if the ambient light does not contribute to the exposure. -> i just wonder if is it worth it to experience with this limitations? the flash burst duration and the shutter speed. to do that i should be able to communicate with the studio strobes beyond 1/180s speed and in this case i need a p-ttl flash unit. well? thanks a lot. piskota

09-01-2011, 12:32 PM	#8
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Here is one method. Usually studio strobes can be set to be triggered by another flash. Setup your strobes and connect one flash to the camera by, say, a sync cord or on the hot. You'll need to balance the flash ratios for the key, fill, hair and background, for example. Set your camera to its x-sync. Make sure the ambient light in the room is low enough. Try a test shot at your sync speed and selected aperture with no flash(es). If it's grossly under exposed or black then the only light to record the exposure is coming from the flashes. You'll typically get 1/600 to 1/10,000+ "shutter speed" depending on the strobe, strobe design and power level. You can usually look up what the T.1 and/or T.5 flash duration times for various power levels for your strobe units if they are a from a reputable brand. Some strobes have digital circuit designs that cut the flash burst off instantly as apposed to a typical RC circuit decay where T.1 and T.5 times tell you how much of the flash strength has diminished in a time period. Here is an example: The Alien Bee B400 strobe has a T.1 flash duration of 1/2000 second (at full power) 1/1000 second (at 1/32 power) where T.1 means 10% of the duration above maximum remains (in other words, it's about gone). Your hs flash unit, on the other hand, gets shorter durations with lower power settings and probably is around 1/10,000 easily at its lower power settings. The Paul Buff Einstein studio strobe has between 1/588 to 1/13,500 depending on power level. Last edited by tuco; 09-01-2011 at 01:27 PM.

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09-01-2011, 12:40 AM	#2
adpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery Posts: 888	you're stuck at sync speeds if you're going to be using studio strobes, since studio strobes do not support pttl and hss. you trigger em like any other flashes: radio triggers, sync cables, etc

09-01-2011, 01:23 AM	#3
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	You can use up to 1/180s depending on which exposure steps you select, 1/2 or 1/3s.

09-01-2011, 01:32 AM	#4
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by piskota studio strobes and hs flashes. do they work together? how do they sync together? i think here at p-ttl flashes. at higher sync speed (beyond 1/160s) the hs flash can work with the studio strobes? or how to whole process of sync is taking place. in my case> metz 48 af-1 and elinchrom d-lite2. sorry to tell you this but nonobloc flash heads cannot do HSS due to the fact that HSS requires the flash to strobe producing a relatively continuous light for the narrow slit that the shutter uses to obtain faster effective shutter speeds. The true synch speed is the fastest you can use (1/180th) for pentax cameras because that is the fastest speed where the shutter can fully open and leave the entirety of the sensor exposed - any faster shutter speeds than that, and the shutter curtains get in the way of the flash. The Elinchrom D-Lites are not P-TTL compatible. Though the metz flash is.

09-01-2011, 01:52 AM	#5
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	Other brand cameras may allow this to work ... but with the limitation that shortly after the sync speed the shutter curtains will cut off the frame before the flash has fired enough to expose that area of the sensor. This can be used for effect in some cases for small pushes beyond the sync speed. Although you really won't be able to go too far before too much of the frame is affected. Depends how slowly your flash fires. Slow burning flashes could illuminate the area long enough to cover a good portion of the frame past the sync time. Sadly, PENTAX has crippled the camera and disables the simple hotshot (for non-PTTL flashes) and the PC-Sync port when your shutter speed is faster than 1/180. So even if you know what is going on, PENTAX has decided you are not allowed to push your equipment to do extra-ordinary things. If you're not familiar with how the shutter curtain affects flash at high speeds, use google or search here for detailed explanations. You'll find this subject comes up every once in a while.

09-01-2011, 01:09 PM	#9
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	An important question is what type of subject are your trying to photograph? - If it is a subject outdoors, and you are looking to decrease ambient light... then you need PTTL flashes in order to support the higher shutter speeds. Just note that flash power decreases greatly in this mode, so you need to be very close to the subject or use multiple flashes. (or as some will certainly point out, you could use ND filters to reduce ambient light for the "slow" sync speed, and super-power your studio strobes to overcome both the ambient and the NDs). - If the subject is fast moving like a water droplet, popping balloon, etc... then your shutter speed does not matter. Darken the room, put the camera in bulb mode, and time the flash to catch the action you want. Fast shutter speed will not be fast enough nor its timing reliable enough to catch these types of subjects. You need to rely on fast acting flashes. (in which case, speed light style lights are often MUCH faster than studio strobes)

09-01-2011, 01:30 PM	#10
adpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery Posts: 888	Originally posted by piskota to do that i should be able to communicate with the studio strobes beyond 1/180s speed and in this case i need a p-ttl flash unit. well? not quite. The reason you need to be at sync speed is so that the entire frame of the sensor is exposed to the flash. If you had used a faster shutter speed, it wouldn't matter how fast the flash duration is, you are going to lose light in your frame since part of the frame will be covered by the shutter curtain. The reason flash acts as your shutter speed in a studio environment is because it is the only light source, since you'll be using a pretty small aperture to negate any existing ambient. Therefore, the duration of the flash exposure determines the length of the exposure itself. The way HSS works is that instead of flashing once, it flashes continuously over a brief period of time so that it acts in similar fashion to a regular continuous light.