[intjonmiller]

Okay, so first some backstory. I have a tendency to overanalyze and overexplain everything, and this post is no exception. It is all relevant, but obviously it isn't all necessary to get to the point. I suppose this also serves as my new member introduction. Skip to the bottom if you just want to get to the question at hand. I've put the key points in bold.

I started with my father's Spotmatic in junior high. Later an EOS 1000 that my dad picked up in Hong Kong on a business trip. In high school I shot for the yearbook with all Pentax gear (don't remember specifics now, other than the ZX-10 when it first came out). When I went out and bought my own slr shortly after high school I got a Minolta. Again, don't remember the model. Went looking for my beloved Pentax and I was talked into some nondescript Minolta. Looking back it feels like it happened in a flash and I put money down without paying attention. I mean it didn't even have manual controls for crying out loud! It was embarrassing. I'm sure the salesman made a good $100 on that sale. I was just excited to have the cash and finally be able to buy my own SLR. Anyway...

I bought a few lenses for it. Later upgraded to a Minolta Maxxum 5 which I loved. Bought it for the best bang-for-the-buck in terms of small size but still quick. Shot my first wedding with that one; it was the daughter of a family friend. (Well, not counting my grandfather's 3rd (?) wedding, when I was 8. My mother handed me the camera and said to have fun. First photos I ever took. Found them in an album a year or so ago. Not too bad, actually. Faces in all of the photos... Anyway, I shot that wedding as a favor and handed them the film at the end of the night and I've never seen the shots.

A few years later I was ready to go digital, but neither Pentax nor Minolta had any digital SLRs and I was not going to buy a glorified point-and-shoot to stick with the brand. That wedding I mentioned before ended up getting me some attention. I got calls from people I'd never met asking me to shoot their weddings. But by this point (2003-2004) we were into 6 megapixel digital SLRs. It was time to go digital. But without P & M helping me, I had to look at N, C, F, and K.

Kodak didn't have anything affordable. Fuji had some interesting options, but painfully, almost uselessly slow.

I didn't like the feel of the Canons. The interface just didn't match how I expected the camera to operate.

Nikon fit in my hand. The D70 fit in my (tax return) budget. I bought it with the kit lens, an SB-800, and some P.O.S. silver 70-300 and proceeded to shoot numerous weddings. (My brother and sister each also bought a D70 the same month I did. We hadn't discussed the purchase. But we all showed up at the same family function with them. They let me borrow theirs as backups for weddings.)


Fast forward 7 years. I still have that D70 and another I picked up along the way. Had a D200 and some decent lenses, but sold them to help fund a move across the country. That move resulted in a divorce and $50,000+ custody battle (still going on). So I've been begging and borrowing gear for a while to shoot until I can afford new gear. As a result I've used Canon gear for a number of events (to great success, but I still don't like the interface), but I've mostly been using Nikons: D300/s, D700, D3.

I go to trial for my kids next month. Things are looking VERY good there, and I'm once again able to entertain serious wedding inquiries (the career type, not just the "I really need some cash this month so I'll do one for $1000 to make ends meet" kind). My cash flow will finally clear up enough to once again have my own full set of gear. I desperately need new gear.

Since I sold off most of my stuff (still have the D70, SB-800, kit lens, and 50/1.8) I'm not tied into the system. And Pentax has caught up in most regards to say the least. And I can get the kind of idyllic setup I dream about for HALF the cost by going with Pentax rather than Nikon again. And to get that kind of image quality from a small, lightweight, high speed package? Sign me up!


But I LOVE the Nikon Creative Lighting System! I shoot "Strobist-style" for the most part, with film-era flashes set on manual power. ButI have looked forward to being able to afford a few more SB-X00s and shoot and adjust quickly with full CLS control. (I mount my flashes before the event in locations that are inconspicuous, but entirely inaccessible during the event.) I get by with the full manual control, but I have long dreamt of passing myself off as Joe McNally with a suitcase full of Nikon guns.

But that dream is entirely at odds with my dream of shooting the dreamy K-5 with a 12-24, a couple of good 2.8s and key Limiteds. See those things don't work with the Nikon Creative Lighting System.


MY QUESTION:

Having read so many recommendations that people go with Nikon if they need wireless flash with remote control of the settings of the individual lights/groups, I find myself wondering if there isn't SOMEONE out there doing just fine with Pentax' contrast control wireless flash at weddings and such? By "doing just fine" I mean "producing gorgeous work with demonstrated mastery of location lighting and making respectable income from the same". Something like that.

Anyone? Anyone?

So far all I've been able to find are reviews and recommendations (I've read hundreds) by "professionals" who say go with Nikon, and by everyone from rank amateurs (as I clearly was a few years back) and photo enthusiasts (who, as far as I can tell, aren't dependent on their photos turning out to put food on the table and prevent a malpractice lawsuit) who say that the Pentax system works great and all you have to do is put it on the camera and fire away. I haven't yet read anything from working professionals who shoot Pentax and are pleased with the wireless flash system.

The CLS controls and the faster sync speeds are basically all that are keeping me from switching back to Pentax. And I can get by on the sync speed issue with neutral density filters (but I'm not happy about that in this day and age; come on Pentax!!).


Someone give me some hope? I need to see actual samples of real-world events to be convinced. And I want to be convinced!

THANK YOU!!!


- Jon

[AOShep]

LIghting is the one glaring weakness with Pentax. But, it sounds like you had lots of experience working stuff out manually. With the money you would save outfitting yourself with Pentax I think you would be able to work out a viable solution with flash guns available for Pentax.

[steve1307]

TLDR

Do you want us to talk you into it or talk you out of it.

I have a K-7 and an AF540FGZ and little experience of lighting. i am finding it difficult to get my head around it but learnng.

I am a little disappointed how filmsy the AF540 is.
The battery door feels like it will fall of when you open it. (It OK if you are very careful with it)
The locking mechanism has pin which reportedly gets stuck in the hotshoe easily. (Again, its OK if you are very careful with it)
The plastic foot for wireless doesn't have 1/4" thread on it. WTF not? (buy 1 for a few $ on ebay)
I does have plenty of power and is realatively easy to use (even for my tiny brain)
Had I been more educated i might have bought a Metz 58 instead.

Apparently there have been a few issues with inconsistent expousure in P-TTL with the K-5. I dont know if t his would affect you in Manual mode.
With multiple strobes i assume you would use radio triggers (I know nothing about them) so any issues with optical wireless might not bother you. I have had no issue with my simple use.

1/180 sync speed is the biggie for your use. If you're OK with that......

Note: the little Pentax-baby-Q has a sync speed of 1/250 so maybe there is some light coming soon on this issue for Pentax DSLR. We can only hope.... and wait... and wait..


I am sure some of the more knowledgable folk here would be able to add plenty of more useful info than my incoherent rambling.

[Slowpoke Rodriguez]

I often see people say that they can adapt to the slower max sync speed of Pentax with neutral density filters. I shoot flash very frequently. I don't see how a neutral density filter helps this issue.

Lets say that at 1/250th and F=5.6 you could balance your flash and sunlight, but that at 1/180th you need to set your aperture to F=6.5 to get the sunlight correct, and at that aperture your flash doesn't have enough output to balance with the sunlight. Or maybe it's not a max output issue, maybe it is a battery recycle time issue. Either way, for our example F=5.6 will work for your flash but F=6.5 is too much to ask. Moving on. Putting a half-stop neutral density filter on your lens will allow you to shoot the sunlight portion correctly exposed at F=5.6 and 1/180th, but it doesn't help you with the portion of the picture that is exposed by flash. Consider that the neutral density filter is cutting all the light that reaches the sensor in half. It doesn't discriminate between sunlight and flash light. If the light ratio between what was sun exposed and what was flash exposed is off before you put the neutral density filter on, it will be off by the same amount after you put the neutral density filter on.

[Slowpoke Rodriguez]

Phooey. In the message above, everywhere that I say F=6.5, I should have said F=6.7. My F-stops were F'd.

[calsan]

I'm not clear what the goal is?
Is it that you want a small aperture for depth of field, but keeping a high shutter speed then use the flash for fill?
Does high speed sync mode help here?
I have my flash set to this by default and can set any shutter speed I wish.

[elho_cid]

I did some strobist attempts with Pentax, using radio, wireless P-TTL and also 5P extension cord. The limit of 1/180 xsync speed is annoying, but I have opportunity to use Canon as well with 1/250 x-sync and the difference is not THAT big. If I had the EOS 1D with 1/500 sync speed that would be another world.
I'm by no means pro, but I lke to play with lights:
http://i.nyx.cz/files/00/00/06/10/610893_f0bc11ef289dacbee680.jpg

A true professional fashion photographer with Pentax (that is active here on the forms) is Ben Kanarek. There are professionals using the 645D, but with that money, they do not need to use old manual flashed on chinese radio switch.

Anyway I advise you not to switch completely. Using two systems in parallel is fun, and gadgets like pocketwizard will work on both Pentax and Nikon. You can have the best of the two worlds actually.

[psychdoc]

Sorry! Your goose is cooked.:ugh:

If you stay with Nikon, you will always wonder whether you should have changed to Pentax for the things you seem to see in it.

If you switch to Pentax, you will likely get to know the limitations of its lighting. I am sure there are people who work around it. But the thing is this: its far easier to 'work around' something when you were never familiar with something more easier/efficient. In your case the work arounds maybe too frustrating.

P.S: The above is just a general statement. I am not a professional photographer. The statements are based on somewhat similar situations in non-photographic fields/equipment.

[kenyee]

"producing gorgeous work with demonstrated mastery of location lighting and making respectable income from the same"

Mastery of location lighting != TTL IMHO.
Look up David Ziser. He does wedding lighting decently well (it's an event, so you have limited time...he uses an assistant to do mostly flattering loop lighting). He runs full manual because TTL flakes out sometimes.
You can also do it PlanetNeil style using A mode (I've done that before)...again, no real need for TTL, though I think Neil uses TTL.

So the bigger question for you is: do you want TTL as a crutch or are you jealous of McNally's infinite set of flashes or is there another reason you've found that you really need TTL?

The only thing I can think of that I'd really want is HSS so you can control ambient a bit better w/o needing to use ND filters and an AB/VML studio setup...

[intjonmiller]

Neutral density filters do cut out both ambient and flash exposure. So you need to have sufficient flash power to overcome that. Yes, particularly for weddings I prefer shallow DoF so closing down the aperture to do the same for the exposure as an NDF spoils that look. I've never been to a wedding where I wanted everything in focus. Whether it's a matter of too much going on in the background, not enough in the background (like a sparsely or inconsistently decorated venue), or Uncle Bob's combover, I like to isolate the subject from the rest of the scene. And underexposing the ambient and then hitting the subject with flash to compensate is another way to accomplish the same. (Also consider that with my D70's electronic shutter above 1/500 (its mechanical sync speed) I can sync as fast as my remotes can communicate, or practically limitless sync speed when using "dumb" slaves. Obviously I don't have that benefit with newer and more professional Nikons, but there's a good reason I haven't sold my D70.)

Note that I said I love the Creative Lighting System. It's not as much about TTL as it is about the ability to adjust the flash output remotely. So I can still shoot with full manual power and all the consistency that comes along with that. (I should mention I also have my remote flashes on large battery packs so they can recycle quickly and shoot all day.)

I would love to have multiple systems. A Canon 1D-whatever and an 85/1.2 for extremely shallow DoF with candids. A Nikon D3s and the trinity of 1.4s so I can shoot in the dark. And a Pentax K-5 and the 2.8s and Limiteds when I don't want to simultaneously shoot events and lift weights. The image quality is also a great benefit.

Edited to finish the point I started above: I'd love to have multiple systems. But I have too many tens of thousands of debt from my divorce and custody battle to pay off before I can even think about that, and then I'd probably buy a house before multiple sets of lenses. At least for the foreseeable future I need to pick one system. I can rent another for unique situations if necessary.

Anyway, I know I can continue to get by with the manual flashes I have (including a good set of Alien Bees) regardless of the camera system I use. But I'd love to see someone out there using the Pentax wireless system to great effect.


Thanks for the replies so far!


- Jon

[intjonmiller]

How about P-TTL for fill light in bright sun? Any reservations there? That's about the only time I use TTL right now. That's one area where I have zero problems with Nikon, and maybe 20% of the time I get (unusably) overexposed shots with Canon (borrowed 5DMkII, the studio's 30D, and my own G10; all have the same trouble both with Canon 580s and Promasters).

So how about Pentax? I would be much more comfortable with this switch if I knew that there is at least one situation where the Pentax flash system does just fine.

[kenyee]

Note that I said I love the Creative Lighting System. It's not as much about TTL as it is about the ability to adjust the flash output remotely. So I can still shoot with full manual power and all the consistency that comes along with that.

You can use the Radiopopper JrX w/ your ABs for that.

The shooting wide open w/ fill flash scenario is exactly what is best done w/ HSS, so it does sound like you'd need Pentax TTL. No idea how well it works unfortunately...I went the full manual approach w/ RP JrXs, but I shoot wide open w/ a 3 stop ND filter and a strobe outdoors...

You could just keep both systems...treat the Pentax K-5 as your Leica (small prime) system. Try it out at weddings as a 2nd gear w/ your Nikon gear as your primary and see how it does...

[Deiberson]

If I had to start over knowing what I know now....I'd never have gone with Pentax. Lack of Pocket Wizzards, battery packs for flashes, wireless TTL etc......Buy yourself some SB900's, Pocket Wizzards and live life.
And we didn't even cover the auto focusing capabilities between the 2 companies....

[Anvh]

If I had to start over knowing what I know now....I'd never have gone with Pentax. Lack of Pocket Wizzards, battery packs for flashes, wireless TTL etc......Buy yourself some SB900's, Pocket Wizzards and live life.
And we didn't even cover the auto focusing capabilities between the 2 companies....

Every system has his pros and cons.

Most of the strobist shooters i know use their flashes fully manual and in the studio world the flashes are fully manual as well, so i wonder why CLS is such a must?
A light meter that can meter flash light is much better tool i think

[Anvh]

Anyway, I know I can continue to get by with the manual flashes I have (including a good set of Alien Bees) regardless of the camera system I use. But I'd love to see someone out there using the Pentax wireless system to great effect.

I doubt there is someone that does.

I've used it for quick dirty set-up with a single flash but don't like the idea of multiple flashes.
Also while you can change the totality of the flash light from the camera you need to go to the flashes for individual control.
In this regard you're better off with Nikon.