[2grahamb]

I bought a Metz 58 AF 2 yesterday and it works fine. As a flash novice I see I have a learning curve in front of me

Could anyone help with the following about using fill flash in automatic mode? According to the Metz website and I quote:

The intensity of fill-in flash can be varied in increments so that the character of the shadows can be retained in the exposure. For this purpose simply select an automatic aperture on the flash unit that is one f-stop smaller than the aperture set on the camera. If a camera aperture of f/8 was established, then the correct aperture for the flash unit would be 5.6.

Fine but in A mode there are no ways to select an aperture unless you turn the camera off first. So is really the way to vary the intensity of fill flash or should you just use EV comp on the flash instead?

I'm sure I'll have many more questions even though I have RTFM

Thank you in advance.

Graham

[SOldBear]

Disclaimer: I don't have the Metz 58AF-2. What I write in this post is based on my familiarity of other Metz models (see my signature).

What you quoted from Metz's website is for "dumb" auto mode. In "dumb" auto mode, you have to match the ISO and the aperture settings on the flash with those on the camera body.

The more "advanced" Metz flash models (40MZ, 54MZ, 58AF, ...) have what is called "smart" auto mode. If the flash is in auto mode, and the camera body is in one of the auto modes (not M or X), the flash (1) gets and sets the ISO and the aperture settings from the camera body and (2) when sufficiently charged, the flash sets the shutter speed on the camera body. There is no way for the flash to have a different aperture value from the one on the camera.

So you have to (1) use the EV comp. on the flash, AND (not OR) (2) use the camera body in M mode.

If the camera is NOT in M mode, you still don't have control of the shutter speed. The exposure setting still based on flash, not on ambient light.

Also, when the camera is in M mode, for the green button to set the correct exposure based on ambient light, the flash needs to be OFF.

This seems to be more trouble than it's worth. So when I use my Metz 54 for fill, I use an SCA module for Nikon to get "dumb" auto mode.

Or you can just use the flash in manual mode and use the power ratio to control the amount of flash light.

[2grahamb]

Thanks for your reply SOldBear.

You wrote: In "dumb" auto mode, you have to match the ISO and the aperture settings on the flash with those on the camera body.

But just how can you do that when there are no aperture settings shown on the flash, unless you turn it and the camera off and then the flash alone back on, then it's possible to access and change the aperture settings.
When you turn the camera back on does the flash just reset to the previous settings, though?

I'll have to check that out.

Looks like M mode is the way to go, but I'd like to have alternatives that give good results when I want to shoot snapshots, for example.

P-TTL seems a bit wayward on the K5 at times, so I thought A mode would be easier. Not so sure now.

On top of all of this is the fact that I'm still learning how to use flash and finding it rather confusing at the moment.

Graham

[SOldBear]

You wrote: In "dumb" auto mode, you have to match the ISO and the aperture settings on the flash with those on the camera body.

But I also wrote: The more "advanced" Metz flash models (40MZ, 54MZ, 58AF, ...) have what is called "smart" auto mode.

When the Metz flash is dedicated to the camera (as in your case), it has only "smart" auto mode. It does not have "dumb" auto mode. I know, that's silly!

In "dumb" auto mode, you can set the aperture value on the flash (as you can see when you the flash is on and the camera is off).

I have several Metz 54MZ-3 and -4, they have the same problem. When I need the "dumb" auto mode, I use a Metz module for Nikon instead of the module for Pentax (the Metz 54MZ can be dedicated to different camera bands, depending on the module in use).

Interestingly, the current Pentax flashes don't have smart auto mode. Maybe this is the reason why Pentax doesn't implement it?

When you turn the camera back on does the flash just reset to the previous settings, though?

No. When the camera is on, it talks to the flash and the flash will set its aperture to that of the camera.

The only way in your case to have dumb auto mode is to block the data pin(s) between the flash and the camera. I think that's too much trouble.

Edited to add:

I think I was still not clear. So in order to use flash auto mode to fill in the shadow, this is what you have to do:

1. Set the camera to manual mode. Set the aperture and the shutter speed to correct exposure based on ambient light (make sure the shutter speed is 1/180 sec or lower). If you want to use the green button on the camera, you have to turn the flash off and back on when you've done with using the green button.

2. Set the flash to auto mode (note that the flash takes the ISO and aperture settings from the camera). Set the EV comp. on the flash to -1.

3. Take the photo.

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Last edited by SOldBear; 09-21-2011 at 11:15 PM.

[2grahamb]

Thanks again for your help SOldBear.

Had I known all this beforehand I might have gone for the Pentax 540 instead, but I'd read so many complaints about it getting stuck on the hot shoe and the flimsy battery door etc that I chose the Metz and, with your help above, I should be able to make it work ok.

Graham

[SOldBear]

Had I known all this beforehand I might have gone for the Pentax 540 instead, ...

I'm not sure which one is worse. I have two copies of the Pentax 540, and many times I wished for a Metz 58 instead (not any more since I got a few copies of Metz 54MZ).

The Pentax is annoying for other things. For example: (1) it does not remember the last setting. When turned on, it defaults to p-TTL. (2) in A mode, it does not take the settings from the camera, thus requires more time to change settings (this is opposite to the problem you have with smart auto mode).

The build of the Pentax is flimsy. I open up the flash several time and am disappointed of the quality of the materials. On the other hand, I twice accidentally dropped a Metz 54MZ (I don't have the Metz 58) about 5 ft to a tile floor and it survived the drops. I'm not sure the Pentax could.

Oh well, life is full of trade-offs....

[maxfield_photo]

I just bought the 58AF-2 as well, so like you, I am still getting used to some of the features. It's a great flash so far, more robust even than the Pentax 540, but it's not without it's quirks. So the first thing I would say is don't give up on it.

My first suggestion is a tough one for some to swallow: learn to love manual flash mode. I know it's not as easy, it takes some calculation and it's probably not the reason you bought your Metz, but for the ultimate in consistency, you can't beat manual mode. Even if your first shot doesn't turn out great, you can dial it up or down from there (assuming you're not at full or 1/256th power) Make manual your go-to mode an you'll always have a fallback. From there you can begin exploring the other features with confidence.

I don't know if it's feasible for you, but if you have the flash off camera you can set the flash's aperture in A mode. That's a feature that I love about my old 45CL-4, you can choose to set the correct aperture, or you can lie to it You can use the camera's pop-up flash to trigger the Metz, or a wireless trigger like the Cactus V5 which is what I use. I still recommend using M mode on your camera for consistency, but I think it should work in any exposure mode.

You might also experiment around with the contrast function. In Contrast mode your on-camera flash acts as the fill while your Metz acts at the off-camera main light providing 2/3rds of the exposure.

[2grahamb]

Thanks Maxfield_Photo for your help. Yes I really want to get into manual flash and am slowly learning it. I also bought the Cactus V5s but haven't yet used them so that sounds good for setting aperture differently on the flash than the camera.

Thanks again SOldBear you're right there are always trade offs, but I'm not giving up on the 58 and will learn it despite its quirks.

Graham

[2grahamb]

I don't know if it's feasible for you, but if you have the flash off camera you can set the flash's aperture in A mode. That's a feature that I love about my old 45CL-4, you can choose to set the correct aperture, or you can lie to it You can use the camera's pop-up flash to trigger the Metz, or a wireless trigger like the Cactus V5 which is what I use. I still recommend using M mode on your camera for consistency, but I think it should work in any exposure mode.

When using the pop up flash as a trigger the Metz must be set to slave but then it can't be set to A ( or any other mode) at the same time, can it? Using the Cactus V5s it works fine though.

[maxfield_photo]

I played around with the Metz 58 this morning with and without my Cacti. From what I can tell, you are correct in your observation. In slave mode the Metz is set to pTTL though it doesn't actually indicate it. The pTTL system requires a preflash to judge the correct amount of flash power and a master(contributing) or control(non-contributing) burst to tell the slave(s) to "fire now". Therefore to use the pTTL system, and thereby slave mode on the Metz, you must either have the pop-up flash engaged, or another pTTL strobe on top of the camera. I should mention here that I am using the K20d, but I believe this holds true for all digital Pentax models. So in slave mode, my wireless triggers would not fire the Metz because there was no preflash even though the sync command was there.

In servo mode however, I can fire Metz either with the radio triggers, or pop-up flash. The one thing I can't do is get it to fire as a true optical slave when it sees a single flash (i.e. no preflash, and no radio trigger). It's not a huge deal, but that means I can't combine it with my studio strobes or my Metz 45 CL-4 (which connects to my PC socket) without the Metz 58 having it's own radio trigger. For me that's an acceptable solution because all my other strobes have optical slaves, but I'm having to depend on line of sight, which I'd prefer not to do. Apparently Metz added preflash suppression to the firmware in ver. 2.0. I wish there were a way to turn it off.

The one mode I can't get to work off camera is pTTL HSS, and from what I can tell, this is a fault of the camera. I can put my Metz on the hotshoe in HSS mode, and set my shutter speed to say 1/500, no problem. If I take a picture, the flash fires and the picture looks great. I can then take the flash off the camera, and it remains in HSS mode, again, no problem. The problem comes when I try to fire it. If I pop the on-camera flash up, the shutter speed automatically drops to 1/180th. The Cactus can't save me either because the hotshoe (and the PC socket) becomes inactive when the shutter speed is set above 1/180th. I think the only way it will work is if you have an off-camera TTL cord, or a second HSS-capable strobe on the hotshoe.

I'm still loving the 58 for it's awesome features, but I'm beginning to see that it is limited by the constraints of the pTTL system. It's one of those things that you really don't understand until you sit down and live with it for a while. Hopefully Ricoh will make some positive changes in the system like raising the max sync speed of future cameras to 1/250th or even 1/500th, and un-crippling the hotshoe and PC socket at speeds above the max sync speed. Even marketing a better off-camera cord would be appreciated. As it is now, a complete off-camera-cord-system will run you $120 US+shipping. There's no reason for that crap, why does it need to be a system, it's just a cord.

[2grahamb]

The Cactus can't save me either because the hotshoe (and the PC socket) becomes inactive when the shutter speed is set above 1/180th. I think the only way it will work is if you have an off-camera TTL cord, or a second HSS-capable strobe on the hotshoe.

But if the hot shoe becomes inactive above 1/180th would using the cord you linked to work or not? It is, after all, connected to the hot shoe so would it not also be inactive?
Thank you for your really useful help on this thread it has helped me gain more insights into the use of flash.

Graham

[maxfield_photo]

High speed sync works a little differently. If you have the Metz on the hotshoe in regular pTTL mode, and you try to dial the camera up above 1/180, it will stop there and like a stubborn mule, it won't budge. But, if you switch the Metz to pTTL HSS, suddenly the camera realizes that the world isn't coming to an end, and it allows you to go all the way up to the camera's max shutter speed. I don't know why Pentax chose this implementation, but the camera won't do flash above 1/180th without a HSS strobe to hold it's hand, and tell it everything will be alright.

With a TTL cord, neither the camera, nor the flash realize they aren't still making contact with each other, so you can think of it as still being on the hotshoe. Or you could also have say an AF540 on the shoe, and the Metz off camera in HSS mode, but it wouldn't work with a Vivitar or a Yongnuo, it has to be a HSS master.

Now, I don't have a TTL cord or a second HSS flash, so perhaps it would be best if someone can confirm this, but I think I'm correct.

[SOldBear]

maxfield_photo is correct here. For HSS wireless, you need a Pentax 540 or a Pentax 360 as a master/controller (the built-in flash does not do HSS at all). Other flashes may be used, but I don't know.

When connected with an appropriate cord, neither the camera nor the flash knows there is some copper in between them. They behave exactly as if the flash were attached to the camera's hotshoe.

You don't have to buy Pentax cord & camera adapter (first photo); a third party cord (second photo) will work:

[2grahamb]

So just to confirm, with a cord you can use the 58AF-2 on P-TTL HSS off camera and shoot faster than 1/180th the same as you can when the flash is on the hot shoe?

Graham

[watchman323]

I just got my Metz 58 AF-2. My question is, when I use M mode on my K5 with Metz set on Auto, why is my K5 still shows under exposed? I set the apature and the speed. My picture does come out properly exposed I guess what I am trying to say is why in the M mode on K5's EV bar still shows under and over as though there is no flash? If I use Apature or shutter priority the EV bar is at the center.
Thanks