[Deiberson]

I recommend getting something with ttl. It would be stupid to limit your shots and ideas to just one dimension of flash photography. I shoot both and can't really say that one is better than the other in any regard.(Manual vs TTL)
A few months ago I went to the Lighting in Layers seminar with David Hobby and Joe McNally. First David Hobby gave a few hours on manual flash and walked us through a shoot......immediately the crowd looked at each other and said "Manual is the way to go"

Next McNally came onto the stage and spent a few more hours with us doing a shoot in TTL. Not too many people walked out of there wanting to shoot manual anymore.

My point is....neither one of those guys limit themselves to just one mode. McNally is the first to admit he'll use manual when he needs to. Ditto for the Strobist.

Before you decide...do yourself a favor and check out Neil vanNiekerk's work over on his blog and read his book "On Camera Flash". It will change the way you think about on camera flash, and TTL and also illustrate how easy it is and why it makes so much sense.

FWIW...I usually shoot manual flash. But if your at a dinner...Lets say Thanksgiving you'll want the ability and quick thinking of the ttl. If its a staged shot or in a studio where you have time to play with things...then you'll want manual.

[top-quark]

Problem with TTL is cost. Even something like the Metz AF-44 is still way more than £70 which was the OP's budget. YN560 should fit right in there.

[rob_k20d]

Problem with TTL is cost. Even something like the Metz AF-44 is still way more than £70 which was the OP's budget. YN560 should fit right in there.

The Metz 24 is p-ttl and is only about £55/$90.

And I agree with Deiberson about van Nierkerk's "On Camera Flash". This may be my favourite book on photography. And what's more, you can use the majority of the techniques in that book with a flash as basic as the Metz 24. It just needs to be ttl. (Admittedly, to use the Metz 24 in the ways described in the book, you would also need to combine it with a cheap flash cord, so you are not limited to bouncing the flash off the ceiling.)

As such, it seems that ttl isn't expensive (Metz 24). And a manual flash with lots of power settings isn't expensive (YN460 or YN560). What is expensive is a flash that combines both of these things in a single flash.

If you only have enough money for 1 flash, and only enough money for a cheap one, I would go for the Metz 24 (unless you will only be using it in a studio - or similar setting).

I used to own the Metz 48. I rarely took it with me though because it was big (normal flash size, but that is fairly big). So when it got stolen, I replaced it with the Metz 24, and much prefer it (because of its size), and for photographing social events (which is my main use) and following van Nierkerk's approach it is perfect. (You could say it would be better with swivel, but that would just make it bigger.)

[kaiserz]

rob, how about the metz 36? is that gonna be a much better buy for a newbie like me? or should I get the metz 24 instead? (I have the k-r)

[DaveHolmes]

Both the 24 and 36 are going to leave you wanting more power... If you really want P-ttl you're going to have to pay for it... Metz AF48/50 get great reviews and others swear by the Pentax 540(?)...

Me?
I use manual flashes and get consistant exposures.... I often use the flash off-camera (strobist style) where p-ttl won't work anyway... And for the price of a P-ttl flash gun I got TWO POWERFUL flashguns and triggers and a stand and a brolly and change...

As for the af48 being too big.... Get a bigger bag...

[kaiserz]

I'm just a newbie enthusiast, and I just want to get a decent flash for some parties with friends that I'm gonna go to this up coming x-mas month, do you really think it's advisable for me to get a 48 already? I have a feeling that I might bite more than I can chew here. And sorry for the dumb question but I keep seeing people saying "wanting more power" what does it mean?

Thanks

[Nuff]

If you are going to go to a party, you can do that with manual flash easy. The initial setup might be hard, but once you setup the flash and put the camera into manual mode and get the settings right, you will have constant exposures all the time with very little fiddling (just changing aperture to get the right exposure). The thing about manual flash is that you will have to do a bit of reading and learn a bit about flashes.

As for wanting more power, a small flash will not give you enough power to light a room etc...

[kaiserz]

ahh ok, so If my goal is just for portraits and stuff like that, I'm guessing that I won't be needing a powerful flash? But then again, I guess having a metz 48 is not gonna be bad?

[SOldBear]

If my goal is just for portraits and stuff like that, I'm guessing that I won't be needing a powerful flash?

If you bounce the light, or if you use flash modifiers (softbox, diffuser, ...), in many cases you do need a powerful flash.

It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. This is particularly true for flash power.

Flash manual mode is great. But same as power, if you bounce the light, or use flash modifiers, manual mode requires the luxury of trial and error, which many times you don't have.

A flash with auto mode is a great compromise, especially that there are so many used units reasonably priced.

I have 2 copies of Pentax AF540FGZ that support p-TTL. But 98% of the time I use my Metz 54MZ in auto mode. The other 2% is because I need advanced features (Pentax wireless, high speed sync) that are available only with p-TTL.

[DaveHolmes]

It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. This is particularly true for flash power.

in many cases you do need a powerful flash.

This is what I've been trying to tell the OP!

manual mode requires the luxury of trial and error, which many times you don't have.

At first yes...
However.. the more you use manual flash the less of an issue this becomes... Nailing exposure becomes intuative in social situations when bouncing, and once you have you can pretty much fire away...

[rob_k20d]

Kaiserz, I have to say, I don't know that much about the metz 36 - I don't know what extra features it has etc. However, additional features aside, the main differences I'd consider are that the metz24 is smaller while the metz 36 will be more powerful, and also has a swivel head (24 only has tilt) which will make the 36 much more versatile than the 24 if using it on the camera without a cord. So essentially I'd say it depends how much you value the compactness of the 24.

Perhaps you will find the 24 lacking in power sometimes, and if you want a flash that will do everything, and will never leave you needing to upgrade to a better flash to do more later etc. then the 24 won't be the right flash for you. BUt I have to admit, I really like my metz 24. As I said, I did own a Metz 48, and when it got stolen the insurance pay out was generous enough that I could have replaced it with the metz 50, but I chose the metz 24. Why? Because the size is perfect. And because, for my use (just wanting nice photos at social events without the harsh built in flash) it seemed sufficient.

I did have the worry that it wouldn't be sufficient for everything I need and I would end up getting the metz 50 anyway, and so it would be a false economy, but then I figured that even if I do later buy a more powerful/versatile flash, I doubt this one would become redundant, simply because there would be times when I would want the convenience of this small flash, and so I'm sure I would continue to have a use for it, and it wouldn't be money wasted.

I confess I haven't had it that long, so maybe I haven't had it long enough to discover its limitations, but so far I am pleased with my choice and (at the moment at least) wouldn't swap it for a metz 50 even if money wasn't an issue. (I know other people will think that is madness, but it just fits my needs.)

As for the comment, "get a bigger bag". Another thing that was stolen was my large rucksack style camera bag. It was brilliant. If I wanted I could carry my camera, 3 zoom lenses and 2 small primes, a large flash, and any number of other bits and pieces. The problem was it encouraged me to do just that, and I was lugging around loads of stuff. So I replaced that bag with a much smaller one, and I carry a lot less.

[rob_k20d]

One other thought. Regarding the choice between the metz24 and the metz36 (or indeed the choice between a cheap p-ttl or a manual flash) I would read van Niekerk's On-camera Flash before you buy the flash. Not only will it really help you to make better use of your flash, it will also help you to decide what sort of flash you want to buy. You will understand the value of having a swivel head (as well as tilt) and that might make you choose the metz36.

Incidentally, anything you can do with a swivel head flash, you can also do with the metz24, by having it on a cord, but that would mean holding the camera in one hand and the flash in another, and you might find that a pain. In which case, you accept that you are limited to the tilt flash (the Niekerk book will help you decide whether that is too much of a limitation or not) or you should choose the metz36 to get the swivel flash.

The book will also give you an understanding of how limiting it will be not having a powerful flash. So anything he does where he is bouncing the flash off something nearby, you will be able to do with a less powerful flash. Where he is bouncing the flash off more distant objects, the cheaper p-ttl flashes probably won't be powerful enough.

As I understand it, there are other uses of more powerful flashes, but it doesn't sound to me like they will be so relevant to you.

[rob_k20d]

Sorry - one last thing (and then I will shut up). Remember the flash is for you. So what do you want it for?

Its very easy to be influenced by people saying, to use flash properly you have to have access to manual modes, or you need x amount of power. Some people say you shouldn't buy Pentax because the system may be limiting, so if you turn pro you will have to switch to canon or nikon to get more advanced lenses etc. But are you really going to choose your camera on the basis that you might later become pro.

I bought manual prime lenses because I was swayed by people saying that, for the price, they'd be better lenses than modern zooms. That may be true, but in a sense it was irrelevant because I never used them.

I remember asking for comparisons between different 28-105 lenses and was told to get the Pentax 18-135 because it was better (ignoring the fact that it was £400 more).

Most people here seem to admit that, whatever the value of using manual flash, it takes a bit longer to learn.

So, given that you wrote, "I just want to get a decent flash for some parties with friends that I'm gonna go to this up coming x-mas month", a cheap p-ttl flash seems the way to go.

[kaiserz]

Thanks rod (: That was a very nice read. I'm ordering the book right now.

[mattdm]

Sorry - one last thing (and then I will shut up)

No need to shut up — this is all good stuff!