total newbie -1st flash purchase

sogden · 11-10-2011, 03:22 PM

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i'm wanting to get my 1st flash
the 2 areas i'd use this would be for portraits and macro with a Raynox DCR 150
i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc..
any advice on what to get and general flash info would be appreciated
(budget approx £70/$100)
thanks

kenafein · 11-10-2011, 03:29 PM

Your budget is too small for a p-TTL flash, but just right for a manual flash. You will just have to input your settings into the flash manually instead of letting the camera feed the information to your camera. Look for something like a Yongnuo YN-560. You can add a soft box or diffuser for not much more.

SOldBear · 11-10-2011, 04:14 PM - **2 Likes**

In my not-so-humble opinion:

- High-speed sync is waayyy over-rated.

- Wireless flash (controlled optically using camera maker's protocol) is waayyy over-rated. I prefer RF, something inexpensive like the Yongnuo.

If you don't need any of the above, you don't need p-TTL. A flash with auto mode (using the light sensor on the flash) can do the job nicely. In fact, one of the reasons I don't use my Pentax AF540FGZ units (I have 2) very often is that they force p-TTL mode whenever there is a chance. I'd rather use auto mode.

Nice things about auto mode:

- No annoying pre-flash strobe: some people and animals react to the pre-flash strobe. They tend to blink during actual exposure. For this reason, I don't use p-TTL for group photos.

- Can be used with different camera brands/models: less likely to become obsolete.

None of the flash units recommended below can do p-TTL (except for the Metz 54MZ-4 with appropriate module). They all have low trigger voltage, tilt & swivel head, auto mode, and manual mode with some power ratio settings. Prices are current for used units in operating condition.

- Less than $50: Sunpak 422D, 433D, 444D, 36DX, 30DX, B3600D, 383 Super; Vivitar 5600, 5200, 3700; Pentax AF280T.

- $50 - $100: Nikon SB24, SB25; Metz 40MZ-1i, 40MZ-2, 40MZ-3i.

- About $100: Nikon SB26, SB28, SB28DX.

- $100 - $150: Metz 54MZ-3, 54MZ-4, 54MZ-4i, Sunpak 120j.

Notes:

- For Sunpak 422D, 433D, 444D, 36DX, 30DX, B3600D, Vivitar 5600, 5200, 3700, Metz 40MZ and Metz 54MZ: a module dedicated to Pentax is nice; then if you leave the camera in Av mode, when the flash is ready, it sets the shutter speed of the camera to somewhere between 1/30 and 1/180, depending on the focal length of the lens. Any module will work with Pentax, but you'll have to set the shutter speed on the camera.

- For Metz 40MZ: with SCA 3701 module, you'll have trailing-curtain sync and "smart auto" mode: the flash will set itself using the camera's settings: ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Some people prefer smart auto mode to dumb auto mode.

- For Metz 54MZ: with SCA 3702 module, you'll have trailing-curtain sync and "smart auto" mode as above. If the SCA 3702 is version M3 (version M2 can be updated by Metz rep. at no charge), you'll have p-TTL (no high-speed sync nor wireless, however).

- For Metz 40MZ with SCA 3080 and Metz 54MZ with SCA3083: you'll have "Metz wireless" mode. Let save this for a different post.

bigdavephoto · 11-10-2011, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by SOldBear

In fact, one of the reasons I don't use my Pentax AF540FGZ units (I have 2) very often

SOldBear, You can always give one to me.

J/K J/K.

I'm Kinda in the same bote as sogden. For me, it's not that I need to get my first flash but more of a case of, do I want to get a new flash versis updating the firmware in the flash I have.

To update, that means I need to send it to promaster and have them do it. If I do that, while it is gone, I won't have a flash I can use on my *st DL or K7.

If I go ahead and buy a new one, which one do I buy? I have looked but I have yet to find a list or database that has flash to camera compatibalty. Also, who do you beleve? After talking to a salesman at a local camera store and he started talking about flash voltage that, if it is to high, you take the chance of destroying your camera.

In other words, I'm a bit confused as to which flash would work with my K7 and *st DL.

SpecialK · 11-10-2011, 08:34 PM

Turns out I'm not much of a flash user, so I sold my AF540 which has really nice specs, and got a $39.99 Bower (also marketed under other names). It swivels, tilts, (manually) zooms, has 2 auto modes and full-power manual. I've mainly used it for off-camera painting with light during long exposures, but it works well enough for normal occasional use. I would not classify it as a day-in day-out unit.

sogden · 11-11-2011, 12:44 AM

I've seen a Polaroid flash(pl126pz) on Amazon for £70..has ttp ..tilt+swivel ..sounds good..anyone heard of this?

mattdm · 11-13-2011, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by sogden

I've seen a Polaroid flash(pl126pz) on Amazon for £70..has ttp ..tilt+swivel ..sounds good..anyone heard of this?

Based on the images, I'd say it's a Tumax DSL88 series model, or close relative.

It's important to realize that the original Polaroid corporation is completely defunct. There's a shell holding company that came out of the bankruptcy, and they've licensed the name to the Summit Global Group. At least in the US; this particular flash seems to be a U.K. thing, and I'm not sure how exactly the rights work out there — the only thing certain is that it's not the nostalgic brand, although wow, they've done a good job with the packaging. I can't find this flash in the Summit Global Group's lineup of "Polaroid" products so it must be some other licensee. I don't know who you'd call if there were a problem!

Metz sells a very similar-looking and specified flash as the Metz mecablitz 36 AF-5, which Amazon UK has for about £90 for the Pentax version (you may find it cheaper elsewhere).

Metz coyly tells me that although this unit (unlike the Metz 44 AF-1 and up) is made in China, the startling similarity to the Tumax flash is coincidence, and that their flashes are "equipped with a special electronic technology which has been developed by Metz in Germany". As much as I like Metz, this is a bit less categorical than I'd like, and I think it's reasonable to believe that these are, at least, very close cousins. However, with Metz, you have a good (real — not just a licensed name!) company standing behind the product, with a real (and easy to contact) UK service department.

All that said, these cheap P-TTL flashes are really designed for brainless operation — they're more powerful and more flexible than the built-in flash, but don't offer you much in way of control. If you want control on a budget, manual as suggested by SOldBear is the way to go.

rob_k20d · 11-16-2011, 06:16 PM

For your budget, I would recommend the Metz 24, which is about $90 new.

Coincidentally, I have just added a review of this flash in the reviews section.

rob_k20d · 11-16-2011, 06:36 PM

SOldbear, when you recommend flashes like Nikon SB26 am I right in thinking that you would only be using these off camera, using remote triggers - and because you are using them on remotes it doesn't matter if they are not pentax flashes. Is that right? I am assuming therefore that you wouldn't put the Nikon flash on the Pentax camera.

Is this the sort of thing you would use for a flash trigger, or would you suggest paying more than that?
JJC Remote Flash Trigger System for Pentax AF-200FG: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

Thanks

Rob

SOldBear · 11-16-2011, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by rob_k20d

SOldbear, when you recommend flashes like Nikon SB26 am I right in thinking that you would only be using these off camera, using remote triggers ....

No. All of the flashes listed in my post above can be used attached to the camera's hotshoe. That's how I use them most of the time.

Of course they can also be used remotely.

Here's the latest addition to my collection: a Nikon SB-24.

(Photo was taken by a Ricoh GX200 + Metz 54MZ-3 in auto mode at +1EV. If the flash were p-TTL only (which Ricoh doesn't support), it would have taken me much longer to mess around with the exposure).

Originally posted by rob_k20d

Is this the sort of thing you would use for a flash trigger, or would you suggest paying more than that?
JJC Remote Flash Trigger System for Pentax AF-200FG: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

I don't know anything about that set. I have a few sets of Yongnuo RF-602 and there is no reason for me to update. The reason I choose the Yongnuo RF-602 is that I use it more as a camera remote trigger than as a flash trigger.

DaveHolmes · 11-17-2011, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by sogden

(budget approx £70/$100)

For that price bracket you're looking at a manual flash as opposed to soomething that supports p-ttl... YN560 will do the job just great... Or if you want to go secondhand see Soldbear's list above...
Shooting manual flash is not difficult at all... I just requires practice... These days I can pretty much guess exposure correctly first shot, 80% of the time using my YN560 on the K-x...

Originally posted by sogden

i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc..

Look on youtube for 'Zack Arias OneLight' he explains how flash exposure (in manual mode) works in easy to understand terms...
But put as simply as I can: Aperture controls your flash exposure - If you're at f4 more flash light will be in the shot than at f8 - or - If overexposed at f4 and underexposed at f8 use f5.6
Shutterspeed controls how much ambient light you allow in the shot - At sync (1/180 on pentax) you are allowing very little ambient light into the shot and relying on flash - To allow more ambient light in you need to slow your shutter...
OneLight explains it better than me... Hope it helps
Dave

rob_k20d · 11-18-2011, 07:31 AM

In response to DaveHolmes, the Metz 24 is p-ttl, and is only £55, and is a great flash. It has limitations though. It is either p-ttl, or it is manual, full power (off camera).

So more accurately, the choice is either:
No p-ttl
Or nothing but p-ttl (or full powered manual)

Which would be better will depend entirely on what you plan to do with it.

DaveHolmes · 11-18-2011, 05:55 PM

Don't know that model (Metz 24)... When you say 'manual, full power' do you mean that in manual mode (and off camera) it only fires at full power?

If this is the case, it's a deal breaker for me... Too many limitations in use... A manual flash such as the YN560 is of more use.

rob_k20d · 11-19-2011, 01:52 AM

Yes, that is right. It doesn't really have manual mode, in the sense of there being a switch between modes (it literally has no controls apart from an on-off button - although different settings can be chosen through the camera, as if using the built in flash). But if not connected to the camera then it can't use p-ttl, so just reverts to manual, and only shoots with full power.

So yes, it is very limited, and not for everyone, but for anyone wanting a p-ttl flash at a cheap price, it is a great flash.

DaveHolmes · 11-20-2011, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by sogden

i'm wanting to get my 1st flash
the 2 areas i'd use this would be for portraits and macro with a Raynox DCR 150

If this is the case a manual flash would certainly be less limiting than the Metz-24... Yongnuo, Lumopro, Vivitar or Cactus manual flashes should be considered...

Originally posted by sogden

i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc..

A couple hours playing around and you'll learn quick...

11-10-2011, 03:22 PM	#1
sogden Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 9	total newbie -1st flash purchase Staff note: This post may contain affiliate links, which means Pentax Forums may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. If you would like to support the forum directly, you may also make a donation here. i'm wanting to get my 1st flash the 2 areas i'd use this would be for portraits and macro with a Raynox DCR 150 i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc.. any advice on what to get and general flash info would be appreciated (budget approx £70/$100) thanks

11-10-2011, 04:14 PM - 2 Likes	#3
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	In my not-so-humble opinion: - High-speed sync is waayyy over-rated. - Wireless flash (controlled optically using camera maker's protocol) is waayyy over-rated. I prefer RF, something inexpensive like the Yongnuo. If you don't need any of the above, you don't need p-TTL. A flash with auto mode (using the light sensor on the flash) can do the job nicely. In fact, one of the reasons I don't use my Pentax AF540FGZ units (I have 2) very often is that they force p-TTL mode whenever there is a chance. I'd rather use auto mode. Nice things about auto mode: - No annoying pre-flash strobe: some people and animals react to the pre-flash strobe. They tend to blink during actual exposure. For this reason, I don't use p-TTL for group photos. - Can be used with different camera brands/models: less likely to become obsolete. None of the flash units recommended below can do p-TTL (except for the Metz 54MZ-4 with appropriate module). They all have low trigger voltage, tilt & swivel head, auto mode, and manual mode with some power ratio settings. Prices are current for used units in operating condition. - Less than $50: Sunpak 422D, 433D, 444D, 36DX, 30DX, B3600D, 383 Super; Vivitar 5600, 5200, 3700; Pentax AF280T. - $50 - $100: Nikon SB24, SB25; Metz 40MZ-1i, 40MZ-2, 40MZ-3i. - About $100: Nikon SB26, SB28, SB28DX. - $100 - $150: Metz 54MZ-3, 54MZ-4, 54MZ-4i, Sunpak 120j. Notes: - For Sunpak 422D, 433D, 444D, 36DX, 30DX, B3600D, Vivitar 5600, 5200, 3700, Metz 40MZ and Metz 54MZ: a module dedicated to Pentax is nice; then if you leave the camera in Av mode, when the flash is ready, it sets the shutter speed of the camera to somewhere between 1/30 and 1/180, depending on the focal length of the lens. Any module will work with Pentax, but you'll have to set the shutter speed on the camera. - For Metz 40MZ: with SCA 3701 module, you'll have trailing-curtain sync and "smart auto" mode: the flash will set itself using the camera's settings: ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Some people prefer smart auto mode to dumb auto mode. - For Metz 54MZ: with SCA 3702 module, you'll have trailing-curtain sync and "smart auto" mode as above. If the SCA 3702 is version M3 (version M2 can be updated by Metz rep. at no charge), you'll have p-TTL (no high-speed sync nor wireless, however). - For Metz 40MZ with SCA 3080 and Metz 54MZ with SCA3083: you'll have "Metz wireless" mode. Let save this for a different post. Last edited by SOldBear; 02-05-2013 at 02:49 PM.

11-16-2011, 06:16 PM	#8
rob_k20d Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Leeds Posts: 152	Metz 24 For your budget, I would recommend the Metz 24, which is about $90 new. Coincidentally, I have just added a review of this flash in the reviews section.

11-16-2011, 07:19 PM	#10
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by rob_k20d SOldbear, when you recommend flashes like Nikon SB26 am I right in thinking that you would only be using these off camera, using remote triggers .... No. All of the flashes listed in my post above can be used attached to the camera's hotshoe. That's how I use them most of the time. Of course they can also be used remotely. Here's the latest addition to my collection: a Nikon SB-24. (Photo was taken by a Ricoh GX200 + Metz 54MZ-3 in auto mode at +1EV. If the flash were p-TTL only (which Ricoh doesn't support), it would have taken me much longer to mess around with the exposure). Originally posted by rob_k20d Is this the sort of thing you would use for a flash trigger, or would you suggest paying more than that? JJC Remote Flash Trigger System for Pentax AF-200FG: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics I don't know anything about that set. I have a few sets of Yongnuo RF-602 and there is no reason for me to update. The reason I choose the Yongnuo RF-602 is that I use it more as a camera remote trigger than as a flash trigger. Last edited by SOldBear; 11-17-2011 at 12:44 AM.

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11-10-2011, 03:29 PM	#2
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Your budget is too small for a p-TTL flash, but just right for a manual flash. You will just have to input your settings into the flash manually instead of letting the camera feed the information to your camera. Look for something like a Yongnuo YN-560. You can add a soft box or diffuser for not much more.

11-10-2011, 08:17 PM	#4
bigdavephoto Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: East central Indiana Photos: Gallery Posts: 893	Originally posted by SOldBear In fact, one of the reasons I don't use my Pentax AF540FGZ units (I have 2) very often SOldBear, You can always give one to me. J/K J/K. I'm Kinda in the same bote as sogden. For me, it's not that I need to get my first flash but more of a case of, do I want to get a new flash versis updating the firmware in the flash I have. To update, that means I need to send it to promaster and have them do it. If I do that, while it is gone, I won't have a flash I can use on my st DL or K7. If I go ahead and buy a new one, which one do I buy? I have looked but I have yet to find a list or database that has flash to camera compatibalty. Also, who do you beleve? After talking to a salesman at a local camera store and he started talking about flash voltage that, if it is to high, you take the chance of destroying your camera. In other words, I'm a bit confused as to which flash would work with my K7 and st DL.

11-10-2011, 08:34 PM	#5
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,481	Turns out I'm not much of a flash user, so I sold my AF540 which has really nice specs, and got a $39.99 Bower (also marketed under other names). It swivels, tilts, (manually) zooms, has 2 auto modes and full-power manual. I've mainly used it for off-camera painting with light during long exposures, but it works well enough for normal occasional use. I would not classify it as a day-in day-out unit.

11-11-2011, 12:44 AM	#6
sogden Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 9 Original Poster	I've seen a Polaroid flash(pl126pz) on Amazon for £70..has ttp ..tilt+swivel ..sounds good..anyone heard of this?

11-13-2011, 07:46 PM	#7
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by sogden I've seen a Polaroid flash(pl126pz) on Amazon for £70..has ttp ..tilt+swivel ..sounds good..anyone heard of this? Based on the images, I'd say it's a Tumax DSL88 series model, or close relative. It's important to realize that the original Polaroid corporation is completely defunct. There's a shell holding company that came out of the bankruptcy, and they've licensed the name to the Summit Global Group. At least in the US; this particular flash seems to be a U.K. thing, and I'm not sure how exactly the rights work out there — the only thing certain is that it's not the nostalgic brand, although wow, they've done a good job with the packaging. I can't find this flash in the Summit Global Group's lineup of "Polaroid" products so it must be some other licensee. I don't know who you'd call if there were a problem! Metz sells a very similar-looking and specified flash as the Metz mecablitz 36 AF-5, which Amazon UK has for about £90 for the Pentax version (you may find it cheaper elsewhere). Metz coyly tells me that although this unit (unlike the Metz 44 AF-1 and up) is made in China, the startling similarity to the Tumax flash is coincidence, and that their flashes are "equipped with a special electronic technology which has been developed by Metz in Germany". As much as I like Metz, this is a bit less categorical than I'd like, and I think it's reasonable to believe that these are, at least, very close cousins. However, with Metz, you have a good (real — not just a licensed name!) company standing behind the product, with a real (and easy to contact) UK service department. All that said, these cheap P-TTL flashes are really designed for brainless operation — they're more powerful and more flexible than the built-in flash, but don't offer you much in way of control. If you want control on a budget, manual as suggested by SOldBear is the way to go.

11-16-2011, 06:36 PM	#9
rob_k20d Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Leeds Posts: 152	SOldbear, when you recommend flashes like Nikon SB26 am I right in thinking that you would only be using these off camera, using remote triggers - and because you are using them on remotes it doesn't matter if they are not pentax flashes. Is that right? I am assuming therefore that you wouldn't put the Nikon flash on the Pentax camera. Is this the sort of thing you would use for a flash trigger, or would you suggest paying more than that? JJC Remote Flash Trigger System for Pentax AF-200FG: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics Thanks Rob

11-17-2011, 09:40 PM	#11
DaveHolmes Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 1,501	Originally posted by sogden (budget approx £70/$100) For that price bracket you're looking at a manual flash as opposed to soomething that supports p-ttl... YN560 will do the job just great... Or if you want to go secondhand see Soldbear's list above... Shooting manual flash is not difficult at all... I just requires practice... These days I can pretty much guess exposure correctly first shot, 80% of the time using my YN560 on the K-x... Originally posted by sogden i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc.. Look on youtube for 'Zack Arias OneLight' he explains how flash exposure (in manual mode) works in easy to understand terms... But put as simply as I can: Aperture controls your flash exposure - If you're at f4 more flash light will be in the shot than at f8 - or - If overexposed at f4 and underexposed at f8 use f5.6 Shutterspeed controls how much ambient light you allow in the shot - At sync (1/180 on pentax) you are allowing very little ambient light into the shot and relying on flash - To allow more ambient light in you need to slow your shutter... OneLight explains it better than me... Hope it helps Dave

11-18-2011, 07:31 AM	#12
rob_k20d Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Leeds Posts: 152	In response to DaveHolmes, the Metz 24 is p-ttl, and is only £55, and is a great flash. It has limitations though. It is either p-ttl, or it is manual, full power (off camera). So more accurately, the choice is either: No p-ttl Or nothing but p-ttl (or full powered manual) Which would be better will depend entirely on what you plan to do with it.

11-18-2011, 05:55 PM	#13
DaveHolmes Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 1,501	Don't know that model (Metz 24)... When you say 'manual, full power' do you mean that in manual mode (and off camera) it only fires at full power? If this is the case, it's a deal breaker for me... Too many limitations in use... A manual flash such as the YN560 is of more use.

11-19-2011, 01:52 AM	#14
rob_k20d Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Leeds Posts: 152	Yes, that is right. It doesn't really have manual mode, in the sense of there being a switch between modes (it literally has no controls apart from an on-off button - although different settings can be chosen through the camera, as if using the built in flash). But if not connected to the camera then it can't use p-ttl, so just reverts to manual, and only shoots with full power. So yes, it is very limited, and not for everyone, but for anyone wanting a p-ttl flash at a cheap price, it is a great flash.

11-20-2011, 01:07 PM	#15
DaveHolmes Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 1,501	Originally posted by sogden i'm wanting to get my 1st flash the 2 areas i'd use this would be for portraits and macro with a Raynox DCR 150 If this is the case a manual flash would certainly be less limiting than the Metz-24... Yongnuo, Lumopro, Vivitar or Cactus manual flashes should be considered... Originally posted by sogden i have never used a flash before(except for the inbuilt camera one) and don't really understand the differences between the settings/ttl etc.. A couple hours playing around and you'll learn quick...