[Tomm]

Nice, many thanks! It's quite clear to me know! I will go for the Metz 50, or 58 if my piggy bank grows fast enough.

[Nuff]

If you are going to use softbox or umbrella (cheaper) all the auto and ttl functions will be useless. You will end up using manual mode and most likely wireless triggers since the flashes will not have a line of sight if you try to do anything fairly complex. Also optical wireless doesn't work too well outdoors in daylight.

By the way, Pentax (I've owned af360fgz, but sold it) are a pain to use in manual mode and make it harder than it needs to be. I've heard the same about Metz flashes.

In my opinion it's better to invest in a book about flash/strobist photography first. Learn a bit and save money down the track by not buying things you don't need.

Manual mode is fairly easy to use with a flash that is made for it. I own 4x yn560 flashes with battery packs for the price of 1 Pentax flash. Not only they provide more light, but a whole lot of flexibility and they recycle a lot faster. Next on my shopping list is Metz 45/60CT-4, I want more power in a single flash.

I suggest going manual route or even auto one. TTL on Pentax doesn't work too well and I never got a single good photo with it. For the price of TTL flash you can get a stand and umbrella/softbox which will improve the quality of light and improve your photos a lot more than a TTL flash would.



http://jarek.smugmug.com

[IIGQ4U]

The Metz is numbskullingly simple to use in any mode. It seems to be the embedded functionalities that some people dislike.

Another good manual option would be the LumoPro LP160.

I personally wanted one fully featured flash for situations where I may want a snap shot and don't have the opportunity to pop test exposures.

[D4rknezz]

Hey! I am not going to add to the discussion in terms of which one to buy, just something to think about !


I am doing wedding and fashion/model photography.
I am a manual mode shooter. I am very picky with my lighting as well, I dont like TTL or others to mess up my shots . I like to determine what my pictures look like. So I set my camera to manual, and set my flashes to manual. At this point, if the picture is bad, I have no one else to blame.
I have a 540 and a 58. I also have some chinese made strobes QQ (which I regret purchasing because of its loud shrieking noise and difficult expandability for modifiers), elinchrom strobes, and alienBees strobe. So, in terms of lighting, I have 2 speedlights, 7 strobes, in 5 brand names. I also have 2 types of triggers. This is not to show how much lighting power I have...but more of a....I've been there - paid more than I should have - if I had known what I knew now.

My list of problems:

My elinchroms are obviously the most powerful of the bunch, but can't do high speed syncs. They are also amazingly frustrating to the point of not working when trying to trigger them optically, because of K5s pre flash. This means, they dont play nice with my speedlights - which is frustrating when i want more than 3 lights.

My Metz should be the most powerful of the bunch, but the interface is...lets say spartan. There are 4 unmarked buttons (no kidding, totally unmarked), that has different functionality depending on the mode you are in. Unless I memorize the manual for it, I end up tinkering with it for way too long. If it were my only one, and I had it since the beginning, this may not be a problem. At this point when every one of my other lights are on, set exposure, and go, Im becoming very impatient in trying to navigate this system.
My 540 does well by itself - and I wish I had more, because as i said, its a strain to try and make it play nice with the strobes.

So I wish I had 4 or 5 speedlights...of the same brand - because I know they will at least play nice with each other. Or, I wish I had strobes that can do High speed sync.

Also, optical wireless triggering has been an exercise in frustration at best. There has never been a shooting session where the sensor didnt fail to pick up the trigger at some point. Worse, when you are playing with more than 1 flashes. As the other flashes work and flashes your peripheral vision, you end up wondering which flash failed to trigger...if you even noticed. You may just blame your light setup for your picture.
To this end, i can't rely on optical wireless anymore. Can't have a model standing around wasting her time while I go...wait ...errr...wait. Let me figure this out.

So I wish i had 4 or 5 wireless triggers of the same brand , because they have to be connected to 4 or 5 lights of the same brand and has to trigger all at once.

As you can see, if I had 4 or 5 AF540 and 4 or 5 pocketwizards - i'd be out more than several thousand dollars. And at that order of money, i am going to buy myself another set of Elinchrom Quadra instead.


So my conclusion, sometime soon, I will buy 4 or 5 Yongnuo 560 flashes , chinese made manual flashes that are apparently as powerful as the metz, with pretty good amazon reviews (And by pretty good I mean that there are 105 reviews with an average of 4.5 stars - while Pentax AF540 has 14 reviews with an average of 3.5....geez..you guys need to review pentax stuff on amazon, guys), and trigger them with cactus v5 triggers or yongnuo triggers. All of these will probably cost me less than 6 or 700 dollars.

I dont know the build quality of these stuff - but i know for sure I can't afford to buy more 540 or more metz, as I rather buy a compact strobe for the same money. Note that these are all manual - no PTTL.

Finally, i really dislike using flashes for candid shots. I am not much good for candid shots - because nothing is candid for my friends when I point my large DSLR at them. They know what I do, and they will forget about being candid. Worse, if I then also try to set up an off camera flash. First, you gotta get the flash somewhere OFF camera. That is, i gotta get it on its stand. Which means, if there is no table, etc...it will be ground level. So thats out of the question. So now I need to set up either a bungee to tie it somewhere. Unless there is no somewhere to bungee it, or to clamp it. So now, i need to bring a lightstand to put it on. This....is not candid at all. Then again, as I am not and can never be a candid photographer, my opinion may be wrong. No one I have ever pointed my camera to has ever failed to try to pose.

If I really want candid, I think i should at least forget the softbox and off camera flash. Put it on camera, bounce somewhere, and hope for the best.
If I want portrait or model, i will buy a system that will play nice together. For me now, I have decided that its the elinchroms. I am buying strobes and triggers and more strobes for studio shots.


To address your comments :
- While you are new and learning curve may be sharp, looking for a flash tells me you are not planning to stay new for long
- Anything manual will play nice with K5, or any other camera. A 540 or a Metz 58 will play nice with the K5 PTTL. Not everything will play nice with each other.
- As i said, i am not much for candid with flashes, unless its on the camera, and for portrait you will find that you will want another flash soon enough.
- If you get triggers, you wont have any problems with or without softbox. Without triggers, you will encounter the occasional mistrigger with or without softbox.
- To make sure the second flash will work with the first one, stay with in the brand. In a perfect world and lots of money I want 4 AF540...or I want 2 quadra systems that comes with their own lighting assistants to carry them around.
- If you have them off camera, every flash can bounce ceilings and walls. If you have them on camera...not so much.
- PTTL is apparently great. You wont ever get creative shots with them though. There are some rooms for you to dial in adjustments in power - but if you do that, you are just half a step to doing things manually.
- you can use your built in flash as master - again, misfire occurs. Remember, your built in points only one way, and if you have a long lens, it will be covered by the lens barrel.

Food for thought

Hi!

1. I'm new with flashes.
2. It should work well with the K5 of course.
3. I want to start with just one flash mainly used for portrait and candid.
4. I would like to use it wireless, with and without a softbox.
5. After some time I want to buy a second flash that can work with the one I will buy in the first place.
6. It must be able to bounce of at ceilings and walls
7. pTTL (or something like that) would be very welcome.
8. Question: Most flashes can only work as a slave, is a master necessary or can I use my build-in flash for that?

EDIT: Budget is around 300 dollars at max. Prefer lower though

I hope you guys can help me out with this one!


Many thanks!


Tom

[liukaitc]

If you are going to use softbox or umbrella (cheaper) all the auto and ttl functions will be useless. You will end up using manual mode and most likely wireless triggers since the flashes will not have a line of sight if you try to do anything fairly complex. Also optical wireless doesn't work too well outdoors in daylight.

By the way, Pentax (I've owned af360fgz, but sold it) are a pain to use in manual mode and make it harder than it needs to be. I've heard the same about Metz flashes.

In my opinion it's better to invest in a book about flash/strobist photography first. Learn a bit and save money down the track by not buying things you don't need.

Manual mode is fairly easy to use with a flash that is made for it. I own 4x yn560 flashes with battery packs for the price of 1 Pentax flash. Not only they provide more light, but a whole lot of flexibility and they recycle a lot faster. Next on my shopping list is Metz 45/60CT-4, I want more power in a single flash.

I suggest going manual route or even auto one. TTL on Pentax doesn't work too well and I never got a single good photo with it. For the price of TTL flash you can get a stand and umbrella/softbox which will improve the quality of light and improve your photos a lot more than a TTL flash would.



Jarek Miszkinis' Photography | SmugMug

vote for yn-560 too..
compare to pentax af540, much less expensive..faster operation if use as manual mode, faster recycle time..better build quailty.
I sold pentax af540 a while ago..and now I only using my two yn-560 (always want to add third one..but I find two flash can accomplish most mission, usually I only need one yn-560)

here are some flash photography I took with only one yn-560...really...one yn560 good enough for most situation...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/post-your-photos/167968-other-yummy-thai-food.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/post-your-photos/167746-people-beautiful-thai-waitress.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/post-your-photos/167747-people-portrait-my-best-friends.html

[Tomm]

Wauw! What a response Very nice.

@ Nuff: You're maybe right to wait with buying a flash and first read some books about it! Some terms I heard here are totally unknown for me. Do you have a suggestion for a good book/ magazine? The yn560 you are suggesting, it's really looks good reading the reviews! It has all the buttons and is fairly priced. What about the build quality? And is it difficult to use manual flashes indoor & outdoor? And once I get used to it, is it still necessary to shot some test pics first to get the right settings, or does it work the first try most of the time? Thanks again!

@ IIGQ4U: Yeah I'm looking at such a flash as well. Something that does PTTL, auto and manual very well. But if PTTL isn't any good (on a K5) as Nuff said.. Don't know if it's worth the extra money then. Anyway I think the Metz 50 is reasonably priced and has most of the functions?

@ D4rknezz: Thanks for you're small novel! You're also suggesting a good manual flash if I understand right. You're talking about the Metz 58 as well. Do you know if the Metz 50 (new version of the old 48) works good as well? The 58 is really expensive, and in combination with the 'spartan interface'.. I really doubt if the 58 is worth the extra bucks over the Metz 50.. Thanks in advance!

I'm now considering the Metz 50 vs. YN560 (or buy some books first). Man, hard decision!

[liukaitc]

in general..there are two main different kind of flash photography

1. if u shoot potrait ( or even product) in studio or outside with off-camera flash..it need many shot to get the photo done..even professional can not say set up once and then had the perfect photo they want..they need to play with light several times to get the right photo..
so in this case..it does not matter u use pttl flash or manual flash

2. if u use flash for event photography..then speed is important..because if u miss it..then it gone...so usually pttl flash should work better..
however if u have done a lot pratice with manual flash at different event...ur exposure accuracy will increase a lot...u will have sense at what distance use what power..
anyway yn-560 is made as manual flash..so it has faster operation of change power manually than pttl flash...u just press left botton to dial down power and press right botton to dial up power...very fast...but for pttl flash..need several step to change power manually..
so my experience is even the initial exposure is not correct..we can make it right in just 2 seconds

---

Last edited by liukaitc; 12-10-2011 at 08:36 AM.

[IIGQ4U]

One of the posters who mentioned that the Metz buttons are not labeled was not entirely correct. Sure, the buttons are not labeled when the unit is off, however, when the unit is powered on the buttons are visible.

Here is a quick snap shot of the menu buttons on the Metz 58 AF-2:



Mode determines the flash mode, PTTL, Manual, Automatic, etc. Para I believe stands for parameters which include ISO, Aperture, Etc. Sel includes various alternate adjustments from remote to flash sync mode.

I agree with Liukaits in regard to the using manual and PTTL modes.

Tomm, you learn by doing. While reading a book may help you understand in theory, true learning is accomplished through application.






I purchased my first flash (Which I returned) prior to Thanksgiving and received my Metz just last week. I am learning by using Manual and will use PTTL when I am not in a position to fire test shots.

PTTL has served me well thus far, though most of your photos will probably be shot in manual. Perhaps powerful manual flashes will be all you want and need to get started?

[D4rknezz]

Hahah...small novel...sorry! I am very passionate about light. I dont understand it perfectly, and everyday I learn more and more and try more and more to understand it. Some things I learned on the way I would like to share - I definitely got lots of help from the forum myself

@IIGQ4U Ya...the Metz 58 buttons will be marked once its turned on, I think the difficulty is that each button has several function depending on which mode you are on, as you pointed out.
As i mentioned, if it was my first, and only flash, i may learn it easier. As it stands, i had to learn AF360, AF540, Chinese QQ, Elinchrom style RX600, Ranger Quadra, .....and errr...the Metz is the one that had me reading a manual once every so often. lol. In fact, I have the manual and the metz out today right now, as I have a model shoot tomorrow that may need it. >_<.

@Tomtom, I havent seen or used the Metz 50. Though a quick glance seems to suggest that the difference between that and the Metz 58 is the guide number. That being, the power it can give out. The relationship of guide number to power distance and aperture is described in the first paragraph of wikipedia link here :

Guide number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I dont think there is much difference..they are both plenty power. If you plan to shoot events one day, like weddings, and plan to use a speedlight to light your cathedral ceilings banquet halls, then yes...you may want higher guide number. It really depends on how far are you bouncing your flash, or how many layers of diffuser do you plan to use....etc.

For your other question in terms of adjusting and checking shots everytime...When you are on P-TTL and it does its work correctly, then you should never need to worry about getting your shot wrong. You should never need to check. Whatever you focus on will be correctly exposed everytime, all the time. The question is whether exposing your target correctly is what you *intend* on doing. Basically - leaving your camera on auto and leaving your flash on P-TTL will give you a picture similar to what a high end point-and-shoot will produce. If you want to create a more "creative" shot, a degree of manual will always come into play.

Similar to what liukaitc said...if you do event photography and you need to get your shots all the time...PTTL will mean a lot for you. But if you are doing portrait, studio work, you will always end up using more manual. If you are doing strobist work, you will do nothing but manual. If you want to take pictures of friends and family - PTTL is valuable. No one likes to stand around while you test your lights...their best smile was always the first one. Hahah!. your case my vary - in my case, my friends and family are ....scared of me and my camera. They wont have their picture taken, or if they do - they usually go running and put their best dresses or makeup on first . There is nothing candid when I point a huge camera and lens at their faces - that means business . Which means, I have almost no use for PTTL.

The use of flash in-door and out-door presents their own challenges, manual or not.
Some of these challenges can't be fixed whether you had them on manual or on P-TTL, and can only be fixed by having , a modifier to the flash such as an umbrella or a softbox, or a gobo or a reflector, or a second flash, or, etcetc.

Personally, as a photographer I feel that I have to see flash as light that I can control. The more power I have in terms of its control, the better my picture will be. I am not happy with how some of my pictures are turning out in-door with random uncontrollable tungsten lighting. I am also unhappy with how my pictures are turning outdoor when the sun is so harsh and in the wrong direction from my model...and I can't control that. Soooo when I get a flash out , I am basically saying I would like to control the light to do my bidding, please. I definitely dont want it uncontrolled - because that means I am not much better off then my original situation!

So in that case, I pick a flash that has the most amount of control option available to me. Will it tilt? will it swivel? Will it trigger optically? Will it work with a radio trigger? Will it work as a master and a slave? Is it powerful, and can i increment and decrement that power by ...1/2, 1/4? or can i do such minute adjustment that I can increment and decrement by...1/20? Is it easy for me to manipulate? How fast does it recycle? I dont want a light that wont turn on when I need it because of recycling time. Can I afford 2? Because you know...once I do studio work, I need 4. Fill light, main light, backlight...hairlight.....ohh..background light. Can i afford it and then afford a modifier? A softbox ? Find out how much a lastolite softbox for speedlight cost, and then how much a lightstand cost. That adds up to your final cost.

I think, at the end...it depends on what your goal is. You have to aim to be an intermediate or advance photographer to work with manual flashes only. If you werent aiming for it...you will find manual flashes frustrating to the point of useless. It will collect dust if you hate using it.
On the other hand, a good P-TTL flash like Metz or 540 can be used manually or auto. Which means, if you never advance your photography, you will always find them useful.
So...if you are aiming high, browse around Strobist to get inspired with some amazing shots...then buy a couple cheap manual flashes or 3 and never look back and dont regret it .

However, if you dont know yet where you may end up, buy a midrange PTTL flash thats affordable, and if you ever decide you need more lights, you can always get a cheap manual flash to complement the PTTL , as long as you also buy triggers. Which is what I am going to do - get several manual flashes to complement my 540 and 58.

[Tomm]

@ Liukaitc: Nice picture you made with that flash. Seems like you can't go wrong buying the YN560. You're right about the different kinds of flash photography. At the moment I haven't got much space and money to buy all equipment needed for studio photography. But I really like what you can do with several flashes. I'm not intending to go the professional way though. Well, not as a source of income any way. But who knows!! First things first

I planning to use P-TTL when I really need to get a shot without having lots of time. I don't think I will use it a lot, but the rare times I do want to use it..

@ D4rknezz: Again, a very complete story! Thanks for both websites, that strobist blogspot is really nice though!! Awesome ideas there. I think my friends & family will share that reaction haha! So in that situation I will use P-TTL or no flash at all. Like I said, I'm not planning to use P-TTL a lot but when I need it, it's nice to have it. So probably going to buy a metz 50 or 58 and extend that with YN560 later on! The Metz 50 does meet most requirements (the ones you mentioned as well). Saw some nice wireless triggers from Yongnuo (RF-602), think they will do the job? Man, I'm excited! Worse thing is: I have to wait for several month before I can buy the kit!!

[IIGQ4U]

Another trigger to look at is the Aputure Trigmaster Plus. All of the units are both transceiver/receivers and can be used to wirelessly focus and trigger your camera shutter, your flashes, or both simultaneously. Since the units are identical, it doesn't matter which one you use for your flash or camera.

[D4rknezz]

Heya!

No clue, never used a yongnuo before! ...Ask around and see if anyone had ever done that combo. I did try putting a Metz 58 and cactus V4 though....I suspect they didnt play well...cuz I ended up having to return my Metz and get a replacement...the metz just kind of stopped working and gave me a powerpack warning. Either that or I got a lemon. The service centre here wasn't sure either what the problem was, but the german head office recommended a replacement. Luckily it was within dealer warranty.

Anyway, good luck with your choices!!

[maxfield_photo]

I've had phenomenal success with my Metz 58 and my Cactus V5s. Under normal shooting conditions, when gross operator incompetence wasn't to blame, I don't think I've ever had the combo fail to fire. I'll say that again, I have had a 100% firing rate. It fires through walls, it fires at great distances. In fact, I had to go outside my apartment building to the sidewalk before I found a spot where it wouldn't fire. I was probably 30 feet away and firing through a floor, two walls, and a sofa and it still worked. I also like the fact that with the Cactus, you can select channels 2 - 5 and meter each independently, then switch to channel 1 and fire them all. Another nice thing is they are transceivers, so if you have 3 and one dies, or gets lost or stolen, then you still have a working trigger system. and if you want to grow in the future, you don't have to buy a kit just to have another receiver.

[Class A]

Before you spent a lot of money on a P-TTL flash:

• Visit the Strobist 101 pages and learn that manual flash settings and manual camera settings are the way to go for many using flash seriously.
• Know that the K-5 has an unfixed P-TTL flash overexposure problem.

You can work around the latter by using negative flash exposure compensation and activating highlight protection mode, but you'll still have inconsistent flash exposure with the K-5. Pentax P-TTL was never as good as other flash systems, but has taken a step back with the K-5 and its inconsistent flash over exposure problem.

I suggest you either get a manual flash and/or one that measure exposure itself. In particular with the K-5, a P-TTL solution is not worth the money you have to spend for it.

P.S.: I can also recommend the Cactus V5. It is a transceiver design, so you can use any unit on camera, for a flash, or a remote camera release.

[bobmaxja]

If you need a lower cost , I have the Sigma EF-530 DG super PTTL. I used it for taking picture at my wife Christmas party last friday. Working 100% . I took more than 200 photos and I can say I was extremely surprise of the good performance of this flash with my K-5. Most photo are taken in AV mode with PTTL mode active. and most of them are not set-up shot but instant moment with a lot of light variation in the room
I also have the Cactus , I have not use it for that events