Yet another question(s) on remote HSS with the K5

**jpzk** · 10-13-2012, 07:58 PM

So, I read that the K5 will not do HSS remotely but will if the flash is mounted on the hotshoe:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5/130406-k-5-sync-limits.html - - - post No. 4

and a few others relating to the same subject:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-technique/53427-high-speed-s...-mode-why.html

This one saying that it is possible: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/140738-...sh-system.html - - - post No. 3: "HSS can be done wirelessly with an HSS compatible flash on the hot shoe.
Flash on the hot shoe set to MASTER (or CONTROL) and the remote flash set to SLAVE."

The set up I am trying to do is this:

1. Bird feeder: install a remote flash (in my case it is a Pentax AF-540 FGZ) near the feeder
2. K5 and DA*300/4 at a distance of approximately 6 to 10 feet; handheld.
3. I need to use a fast shutter speed: 1/1000 s or so (the flash when not HSS would have a maximum of 1/180 s, right?)
4. The aperture .... not sure about that one.
5. Fire the shot when the bird shows up

Is this a possible set up ?

JP

SOldBear · 10-13-2012, 09:27 PM

There must be an HSS-compatible flash attached to the hot shoe to control the remote flash. You didn't mention this flash in your post.

The camera's built-in flash is NOT HSS-compatible.

**maxfield_photo** · 10-13-2012, 09:49 PM

You either need 2 HSS flashes or a long TTL cable. OR get the flash really close but put it at low power and shoot at 1/180th or slower, and use a small aperture, the flash duration will freeze the wings.

**jpzk** · 10-14-2012, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by SOldBear

There must be an HSS-compatible flash attached to the hot shoe to control the remote flash. You didn't mention this flash in your post.

The camera's built-in flash is NOT HSS-compatible.

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

You either need 2 HSS flashes or a long TTL cable. OR get the flash really close but put it at low power and shoot at 1/180th or slower, and use a small aperture, the flash duration will freeze the wings.

Right, I didn't mention anything about a second flash because ... I had no idea this is how it works!

Might as well skip this entire thread then, I can't really spend another few hundred dollars on another flash.
I thought the onboard flash would trigger HSS to the remote the same as it does when "not-in-HSS".

Thanks for the replies folks.

JP

steve1307 · 10-15-2012, 12:34 AM

Disclaimer: I've never even seen a humming bird much less tried to photograph one.

I would think using the flash at low power (shorter flash duration ) would be the way to try it even with the shutter at 1/180 or slower. Let the flash do the work not the shutter.

Also, When the shutter speed is faster than 1/180 the shutter curtains still move at the same speed across the frame just with a slit rather than fully open. (ie the shutter still taken 1/180th sec to move the 16mm or so down across the sensor).
If you've ever tried to freeze some thing moving really fast like a propeller out of the window of an aircraft using a fast shutter speed. You do get a "frozen image" of a bizzarely curved looking propellor blade which you know should be straight.

Hummingbirds can beat there wings at about 80 bps so and I'm guessing here ...the up stroke might take 1/300s change direction (1/300s?) and the down stroke also 1/300s change direction (1/300s?).
You shutter moved downward at only 1/180s so unless to catch them at close the ends of a wingstroke the hummngbird wings are probably moving much faster than your shutter curtains no matter what shutterspeed you have set. Wont they get all distorted like the propellor blade example?

The point I'm waffling around is that to freeze the wings of a hummingbird I think you don't need HSS or a fast shutter. For the best results you need a decent flash and the right postioning of the light & background.

**jpzk** · 10-15-2012, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by steve1307

Disclaimer: I've never even seen a humming bird much less tried to photograph one.

I would think using the flash at low power (shorter flash duration ) would be the way to try it even with the shutter at 1/180 or slower. Let the flash do the work not the shutter.

Also, When the shutter speed is faster than 1/180 the shutter curtains still move at the same speed across the frame just with a slit rather than fully open. (ie the shutter still taken 1/180th sec to move the 16mm or so down across the sensor).
If you've ever tried to freeze some thing moving really fast like a propeller out of the window of an aircraft using a fast shutter speed. You do get a "frozen image" of a bizzarely curved looking propellor blade which you know should be straight.

Hummingbirds can beat there wings at about 80 bps so and I'm guessing here ...the up stroke might take 1/300s change direction (1/300s?) and the down stroke also 1/300s change direction (1/300s?).
You shutter moved downward at only 1/180s so unless to catch them at close the ends of a wingstroke the hummngbird wings are probably moving much faster than your shutter curtains no matter what shutterspeed you have set. Wont they get all distorted like the propellor blade example?

The point I'm waffling around is that to freeze the wings of a hummingbird I think you don't need HSS or a fast shutter. For the best results you need a decent flash and the right postioning of the light & background.

In a nutshell, what you are saying is:

Set up the flash remotely at a decent distance so that the camera on-board flash will trigger it (the slave flash) and just use the "fastest" available shutter speed of 1/180s ?
Simple as that?

I would use the K5 + DA*300/4 + the AF-540 FGZ in my set up.
At which settings would you set the camera, e.g.: Av, TAv, ISO, etc ... ?

Thanks for the response.

JP

**maxfield_photo** · 10-15-2012, 10:56 PM

The key is getting the flash fairly close to the birds, and keeping the flash power very low. Your flash duration is at its fastest when the power is very low, but the proximity will allow you to shoot at maybe f/11 or f/16 and still get a proper exposure of your subject, while the small aperture cuts out a lot of daylight which causes blurring of the wing. You will have a fairly dark background though, that's unavoidable with this technique.

**jpzk** · 10-16-2012, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

The key is getting the flash fairly close to the birds, and keeping the flash power very low. Your flash duration is at its fastest when the power is very low, but the proximity will allow you to shoot at maybe f/11 or f/16 and still get a proper exposure of your subject, while the small aperture cuts out a lot of daylight which causes blurring of the wing. You will have a fairly dark background though, that's unavoidable with this technique.

Thanks for the reply !

OK, so I will give it a go later this week when the weather cooperates ... it has been rainy, windy and cold around here for a few days.
The bird feeder is very busy too

JP

steve1307 · 10-16-2012, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by jpzk

In a nutshell, what you are saying is:

Set up the flash remotely at a decent distance so that the camera on-board flash will trigger it (the slave flash) and just use the "fastest" available shutter speed of 1/180s ?
Simple as that?

I would use the K5 + DA*300/4 + the AF-540 FGZ in my set up.
At which settings would you set the camera, e.g.: Av, TAv, ISO, etc ... ?

Thanks for the response.

JP

I had typed up an answer but my 3G signal just died and I lost it

Anyway, essentially yes a max_photo says and also to add.

I'd set it up with a model first to get the DOF right selecting your lens apeture and postioning your flash and setting the power.

If you're 6metres away then using f5.6 will give you only 3" of DOF. not enough?
Maybe f8, f11 would be OK.

The bigger the aperture you can use(keeping the dof OK) and the closer the flash can be postioned then the lower the power setting.

Since you can set up and test before I'd be inclined to use M-mode on the flash, its just more consistent. Hopefully you can get the right "subject" exposure with 1/64, 1/32 or maybe 1/16.

I always use M-mode in the camera when using flash (even with P-TTL). I can control the background ambient with varying shutterspeed.

Shutterspeed is not important for the lighting of the bird because the flash is going to do all the work.

Somewhere around here is a recent thread about the duration of the flash lighting on the AF540.

stormtech · 10-18-2012, 05:42 AM

JP - I am planning the same exact thing for this upcoming winter with the K-5 and AF540. I've decided to just use flash triggers and learn to do it in manual mode. Since this will be a static setup for me, I can experiment with flash output power and camera settings. I bought a pair of Catcus v5 triggers for this. I have also bought the remote control cable so the triggers can also be used as a wireless remote. The one thing I need to find out is if I can use the triggers to trigger the flash and use it as a wireless remote at the same time, but I doubt it.

So my setup will be AF540 on light stand with either umbrella or soft box to be fired by the Cactus triggers. I will use it both with hand-holding the camera, and also going to try with the camera on a tripod and firing it with a wireless remote. Don't know if the Cactus trigger will both trigger the flash AND be used as a wireless remote at the same time - if not I'll use the Pentax infrared remote.

SOldBear · 10-18-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by stormtech

Don't know if the Cactus trigger will both trigger the flash AND be used as a wireless remote at the same time - if not I'll use the Pentax infrared remote.

I don't know much about the Cactus. I've been using Yongnuo RF-602. But I think they must be similar.

You don't want to trigger the camera's shutter release and the flash with one remote control. There is a good chance that the flash and the camera will be out of sync.

I'd use a set of remote control on one channel to release the camera's shutter. The camera in turn triggers the remote flash using another set of remote control on a different channel. This will guarantee the camera and the flash to be in sync.

Class A · 10-18-2012, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by stormtech

The one thing I need to find out is if I can use the triggers to trigger the flash and use it as a wireless remote at the same time, but I doubt it.

If you only have two transceivers, the flash would have to be triggered by either of them, i.e., close to the camera or close to your remote, which is probably not what you want.

Even with three transceivers it would'nt work because your remote trigger would simultaneously fire both flash and camera and the latter will always be too late to see the flash due to shutter lag.

The V5 do not have a "relay mode" that could put double duty on one transceiver to both trigger the camera and -- upon receiving the subsequent trigger signal from the camera -- trigger the remote flash. Hence, if you want to trigger the camera remotely with a V5 and have a flash triggered off camera, you need four V5 transceivers in total (using different channels for the pairs, as SOldBear described).

stormtech · 10-18-2012, 01:46 PM

Thanks for the explanation folks - makes perfect sense.

I will experiment with using the Pentax infrared remote - not sure it will pass the signal through a glass window or not.

**jpzk** · 10-19-2012, 08:12 PM

What started with a simple explanation ended up again in a mystery.

I called it quits already.

JP

steve1307 · 10-20-2012, 02:12 AM

I'm more stubborn. 1minute of googling "freezing hummingbird wirgs" give lots of hits.

Secrets of Digital Bird Photography - this is 1 page out of a huge e-book on bird photography techniques - I saved it to my favourites.

Hummingbird Photography Guide Part 1 - High Speed Flash - Ralph Paonessa Photography Workshops & Photo Tours

How to Freeze a Hummingbird's Wings

there was even a hit from pentaxforums from last month

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/199323-...ird-wings.html

A lot of forums have the same question as yours . why does flash with HSS still give blurry wings. The answer is always the same, freeze with flash close in, low power. Dont need fast shutter.

10-13-2012, 07:58 PM	#1
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	Yet another question(s) on remote HSS with the K5 So, I read that the K5 will not do HSS remotely but will if the flash is mounted on the hotshoe: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5/130406-k-5-sync-limits.html - - - post No. 4 and a few others relating to the same subject: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-technique/53427-high-speed-s...-mode-why.html This one saying that it is possible: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/140738-...sh-system.html - - - post No. 3: "HSS can be done wirelessly with an HSS compatible flash on the hot shoe. Flash on the hot shoe set to MASTER (or CONTROL) and the remote flash set to SLAVE." The set up I am trying to do is this: 1. Bird feeder: install a remote flash (in my case it is a Pentax AF-540 FGZ) near the feeder 2. K5 and DA*300/4 at a distance of approximately 6 to 10 feet; handheld. 3. I need to use a fast shutter speed: 1/1000 s or so (the flash when not HSS would have a maximum of 1/180 s, right?) 4. The aperture .... not sure about that one. 5. Fire the shot when the bird shows up Is this a possible set up ? JP

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10-13-2012, 09:27 PM	#2
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	There must be an HSS-compatible flash attached to the hot shoe to control the remote flash. You didn't mention this flash in your post. The camera's built-in flash is NOT HSS-compatible.

10-13-2012, 09:49 PM	#3
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	You either need 2 HSS flashes or a long TTL cable. OR get the flash really close but put it at low power and shoot at 1/180th or slower, and use a small aperture, the flash duration will freeze the wings.

10-14-2012, 10:54 AM	#4
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by SOldBear There must be an HSS-compatible flash attached to the hot shoe to control the remote flash. You didn't mention this flash in your post. The camera's built-in flash is NOT HSS-compatible. Originally posted by maxfield_photo You either need 2 HSS flashes or a long TTL cable. OR get the flash really close but put it at low power and shoot at 1/180th or slower, and use a small aperture, the flash duration will freeze the wings. Right, I didn't mention anything about a second flash because ... I had no idea this is how it works! Might as well skip this entire thread then, I can't really spend another few hundred dollars on another flash. I thought the onboard flash would trigger HSS to the remote the same as it does when "not-in-HSS". Thanks for the replies folks. JP

10-15-2012, 12:34 AM	#5
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Disclaimer: I've never even seen a humming bird much less tried to photograph one. I would think using the flash at low power (shorter flash duration ) would be the way to try it even with the shutter at 1/180 or slower. Let the flash do the work not the shutter. Also, When the shutter speed is faster than 1/180 the shutter curtains still move at the same speed across the frame just with a slit rather than fully open. (ie the shutter still taken 1/180th sec to move the 16mm or so down across the sensor). If you've ever tried to freeze some thing moving really fast like a propeller out of the window of an aircraft using a fast shutter speed. You do get a "frozen image" of a bizzarely curved looking propellor blade which you know should be straight. Hummingbirds can beat there wings at about 80 bps so and I'm guessing here ...the up stroke might take 1/300s change direction (1/300s?) and the down stroke also 1/300s change direction (1/300s?). You shutter moved downward at only 1/180s so unless to catch them at close the ends of a wingstroke the hummngbird wings are probably moving much faster than your shutter curtains no matter what shutterspeed you have set. Wont they get all distorted like the propellor blade example? The point I'm waffling around is that to freeze the wings of a hummingbird I think you don't need HSS or a fast shutter. For the best results you need a decent flash and the right postioning of the light & background.

10-15-2012, 01:25 PM	#6
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by steve1307 Disclaimer: I've never even seen a humming bird much less tried to photograph one. I would think using the flash at low power (shorter flash duration ) would be the way to try it even with the shutter at 1/180 or slower. Let the flash do the work not the shutter. Also, When the shutter speed is faster than 1/180 the shutter curtains still move at the same speed across the frame just with a slit rather than fully open. (ie the shutter still taken 1/180th sec to move the 16mm or so down across the sensor). If you've ever tried to freeze some thing moving really fast like a propeller out of the window of an aircraft using a fast shutter speed. You do get a "frozen image" of a bizzarely curved looking propellor blade which you know should be straight. Hummingbirds can beat there wings at about 80 bps so and I'm guessing here ...the up stroke might take 1/300s change direction (1/300s?) and the down stroke also 1/300s change direction (1/300s?). You shutter moved downward at only 1/180s so unless to catch them at close the ends of a wingstroke the hummngbird wings are probably moving much faster than your shutter curtains no matter what shutterspeed you have set. Wont they get all distorted like the propellor blade example? The point I'm waffling around is that to freeze the wings of a hummingbird I think you don't need HSS or a fast shutter. For the best results you need a decent flash and the right postioning of the light & background. In a nutshell, what you are saying is: Set up the flash remotely at a decent distance so that the camera on-board flash will trigger it (the slave flash) and just use the "fastest" available shutter speed of 1/180s ? Simple as that? I would use the K5 + DA*300/4 + the AF-540 FGZ in my set up. At which settings would you set the camera, e.g.: Av, TAv, ISO, etc ... ? Thanks for the response. JP

10-15-2012, 10:56 PM	#7
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	The key is getting the flash fairly close to the birds, and keeping the flash power very low. Your flash duration is at its fastest when the power is very low, but the proximity will allow you to shoot at maybe f/11 or f/16 and still get a proper exposure of your subject, while the small aperture cuts out a lot of daylight which causes blurring of the wing. You will have a fairly dark background though, that's unavoidable with this technique.

10-16-2012, 06:46 AM	#8
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by maxfield_photo The key is getting the flash fairly close to the birds, and keeping the flash power very low. Your flash duration is at its fastest when the power is very low, but the proximity will allow you to shoot at maybe f/11 or f/16 and still get a proper exposure of your subject, while the small aperture cuts out a lot of daylight which causes blurring of the wing. You will have a fairly dark background though, that's unavoidable with this technique. Thanks for the reply ! OK, so I will give it a go later this week when the weather cooperates ... it has been rainy, windy and cold around here for a few days. The bird feeder is very busy too JP

10-16-2012, 09:20 PM	#9
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Originally posted by jpzk In a nutshell, what you are saying is: Set up the flash remotely at a decent distance so that the camera on-board flash will trigger it (the slave flash) and just use the "fastest" available shutter speed of 1/180s ? Simple as that? I would use the K5 + DA*300/4 + the AF-540 FGZ in my set up. At which settings would you set the camera, e.g.: Av, TAv, ISO, etc ... ? Thanks for the response. JP I had typed up an answer but my 3G signal just died and I lost it Anyway, essentially yes a max_photo says and also to add. I'd set it up with a model first to get the DOF right selecting your lens apeture and postioning your flash and setting the power. If you're 6metres away then using f5.6 will give you only 3" of DOF. not enough? Maybe f8, f11 would be OK. The bigger the aperture you can use(keeping the dof OK) and the closer the flash can be postioned then the lower the power setting. Since you can set up and test before I'd be inclined to use M-mode on the flash, its just more consistent. Hopefully you can get the right "subject" exposure with 1/64, 1/32 or maybe 1/16. I always use M-mode in the camera when using flash (even with P-TTL). I can control the background ambient with varying shutterspeed. Shutterspeed is not important for the lighting of the bird because the flash is going to do all the work. Somewhere around here is a recent thread about the duration of the flash lighting on the AF540.

10-18-2012, 05:42 AM	#10
stormtech Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: In the boonies (NW Penna) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,744	JP - I am planning the same exact thing for this upcoming winter with the K-5 and AF540. I've decided to just use flash triggers and learn to do it in manual mode. Since this will be a static setup for me, I can experiment with flash output power and camera settings. I bought a pair of Catcus v5 triggers for this. I have also bought the remote control cable so the triggers can also be used as a wireless remote. The one thing I need to find out is if I can use the triggers to trigger the flash and use it as a wireless remote at the same time, but I doubt it. So my setup will be AF540 on light stand with either umbrella or soft box to be fired by the Cactus triggers. I will use it both with hand-holding the camera, and also going to try with the camera on a tripod and firing it with a wireless remote. Don't know if the Cactus trigger will both trigger the flash AND be used as a wireless remote at the same time - if not I'll use the Pentax infrared remote.

10-18-2012, 11:47 AM	#11
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by stormtech Don't know if the Cactus trigger will both trigger the flash AND be used as a wireless remote at the same time - if not I'll use the Pentax infrared remote. I don't know much about the Cactus. I've been using Yongnuo RF-602. But I think they must be similar. You don't want to trigger the camera's shutter release and the flash with one remote control. There is a good chance that the flash and the camera will be out of sync. I'd use a set of remote control on one channel to release the camera's shutter. The camera in turn triggers the remote flash using another set of remote control on a different channel. This will guarantee the camera and the flash to be in sync.

10-18-2012, 01:39 PM	#12
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by stormtech The one thing I need to find out is if I can use the triggers to trigger the flash and use it as a wireless remote at the same time, but I doubt it. If you only have two transceivers, the flash would have to be triggered by either of them, i.e., close to the camera or close to your remote, which is probably not what you want. Even with three transceivers it would'nt work because your remote trigger would simultaneously fire both flash and camera and the latter will always be too late to see the flash due to shutter lag. The V5 do not have a "relay mode" that could put double duty on one transceiver to both trigger the camera and -- upon receiving the subsequent trigger signal from the camera -- trigger the remote flash. Hence, if you want to trigger the camera remotely with a V5 and have a flash triggered off camera, you need four V5 transceivers in total (using different channels for the pairs, as SOldBear described).

10-18-2012, 01:46 PM	#13
stormtech Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: In the boonies (NW Penna) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,744	Thanks for the explanation folks - makes perfect sense. I will experiment with using the Pentax infrared remote - not sure it will pass the signal through a glass window or not.

10-19-2012, 08:12 PM	#14
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	What started with a simple explanation ended up again in a mystery. I called it quits already. JP

10-20-2012, 02:12 AM	#15
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	I'm more stubborn. 1minute of googling "freezing hummingbird wirgs" give lots of hits. Secrets of Digital Bird Photography - this is 1 page out of a huge e-book on bird photography techniques - I saved it to my favourites. Hummingbird Photography Guide Part 1 - High Speed Flash - Ralph Paonessa Photography Workshops & Photo Tours How to Freeze a Hummingbird's Wings there was even a hit from pentaxforums from last month https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-flashes-lighting-technique/199323-...ird-wings.html A lot of forums have the same question as yours . why does flash with HSS still give blurry wings. The answer is always the same, freeze with flash close in, low power. Dont need fast shutter.