[dmfw]

I have been considering the purchase of a Yonguo 460-II or 560-II to use with my KX. However, I confused on how to shoot the KX with a manual flash. I know that the flashes have power levels, but they do not appear to have a guide that allows me to indicate my ISO, Speed, or F stop.

If I used these flashes, would I need to use a separate meter? If not, how easily can I determine the proper Speed, and F stop for my ISO and distance. (My old film flash had a guide on back to help with this determination)

Thanks

P.S.

I am trying to determine if I can use manual or need TTL/PTTL.

[ihasa]

No you don't necessarily 'need' a meter. If you bounce the flash or use something like a brolly on a stand for portraits, the distance from flash to subject isn't going to change too much from shot to shot. Choose relatively sensible settings, check your shot, and adjust your camera and flash settings as needed. With a bit of experience your initial guess of the correct exposure will get closer and closer.

If you are a pro working with complicated lighting set ups and needing to work fast, a meter makes more sense.

[SOldBear]

What makes you decide on Yonguo 460-II or 560-II?

Would you consider a different model, one with auto mode (thyristor)?

[GeneV]

****

I am trying to determine if I can use manual or need TTL/PTTL.

The OP does not say how the flashes will be used. If it were me, the only reason to get a non-dedicated flash would be if you are using them off the camera on stands, like portable substitutes for studio flashes. If you just want to use on-camera flash (or a single corded flash) I find it much easier to use one which sets the camera info into the flash or uses P-TTL than to use tables and math.

[stormtech]

What makes you decide on Yonguo 460-II or 560-II?

Would you consider a different model, one with auto mode (thyristor)?

I get confused with the different terminology, but when you say auto mode (thyristor) is that the same as being able to fire the flash off camera by the flash sensed from another flash?

If this is the same, the Yongnuo 560 & 560II do have that slave flash capacity - can also ignore the P-TTL pre-flash in S2 mode.

ФTHE HIGH SENSITIVITY WIRELESS TRIGGERING SENSOR
The high sensitivity wireless triggering sensor inherits from YN560, which makes the S1 and S2 mode can be used in outdoor environment and the wireless triggering distance is as long as 15m, as well as 25m indoors.

[glanglois]

No, the auto mode is not the same as being able to fire the flash off camera by the flash sensed from another flash.

Auto (or auto thyristor) mode in one in which the flash unit itself monitors the scene (using an auto thyristor circuit behind a small window at the front of the unit) and cuts off the flash when the correct amount of light is observed. Either the user or the camera (though the hot shoe, if that capability is present) tells the flash of the sensitivity (ISO), aperture, and shutter speed. In this case, the camera is in manual mode and all settings are selected and entered into the camera by the user.

That auto mode has been around for perhaps 30+ years and works fine with my Metz 54 and 58 AF and Nikon SB-24 (or SB-26 - I don't recall) when they were used with K-5, K-7, K-X, and K-10D.

[stormtech]

No, the auto mode is not the same as being able to fire the flash off camera by the flash sensed from another flash.

Auto (or auto thyristor) mode in one in which the flash unit itself monitors the scene (using an auto thyristor circuit behind a small window at the front of the unit) and cuts off the flash when the correct amount of light is observed. Either the user or the camera (though the hot shoe, if that capability is present) tells the flash of the sensitivity (ISO), aperture, and shutter speed. In this case, the camera is in manual mode and all settings are selected and entered into the camera by the user.

That auto mode has been around for perhaps 30+ years and works fine with my Metz 54 and 58 AF and Nikon SB-24 (or SB-26 - I don't recall) when they were used with K-5, K-7, K-X, and K-10D.

Thanks for explaining - I understand the difference now.

So the auto mode as you explain in the last sentence is nothing more than using one of those small flash sensors (slave sensors) that you can get on ebay for $7 but is built in to those units?

[fb_penpho]

Just bought one, the 560ii. The purchase was on the basis this produces a set amount of light upon being triggered. IT is NOT integrated into the camera's metering system. So I will use it on a stand, where I can direct the flash, bounce; direct; umbrella, etc. I can finely tune the amount of light using the flashes controls.

[glanglois]

Thanks for explaining - I understand the difference now.

So the auto mode as you explain in the last sentence is nothing more than using one of those small flash sensors (slave sensors) that you can get on ebay for $7 but is built in to those units?

No, I'm afraid not. The small slave sensors do nothing but trigger the flash, which fires at the settings you've manually entered. The slave sensors do not communicate any exposure info to the flash unit other than ...... "Fire!"

[GeneV]

No, I'm afraid not. The small slave sensors do nothing but trigger the flash, which fires at the settings you've manually entered. The slave sensors do not communicate any exposure info to the flash unit other than ...... "Fire!"

As I have always understand the auto mode (outside of wireless P-TTL), that is all the trigger in the flash is doing. Put the slave sensor on a 30 year old Vivitar 283 and you get the same functionality as, say, an AF540FGZ in SL2 and auto mode . What are we missing?

[stormtech]

No, I'm afraid not. The small slave sensors do nothing but trigger the flash, which fires at the settings you've manually entered. The slave sensors do not communicate any exposure info to the flash unit other than ...... "Fire!"

Bear with me as I am trying to learn - appreciate your help! I will try to put how I think these work:

I have an AF540 flash. When using it off camera, I can use it in "auto" mode with a radio trigger - does the flash control its output for the scene?

I thought the Yongnuo 560II would do the same as above.

This is where I am getting confused with the "auto" as I explain above with "auto thyristor" like is a feature of a Sunpak 422D.

Please help steer me in the right direction as I need to fully comprehend this.

[SOldBear]

We are talking about two different things of a flash. Let me try to make it clear.

1. Flash triggering.

A flash can be triggered by different ways:

- The most common way is with a flash attached to the camera's hot shoe. When the camera opens the shutter, it triggers the flash by shorting the ground terminal (the one on either side of the hotshoe) with the sync terminal (the one in the center of the hotshoe). A variation of this is when there is a cord between the camera's hotshoe and the flash's foot.

- Optical slave: the flash can be triggered by light strobe from another flash. In "smart" optical triggering, the flash and the camera communicate using sophisticated protocols. The communication contains more data than just a simple "fire" command. The "smart" mode requires the flash to be "dedicated" to the camera. Pentax's p-TTL wireless flash (AF540FGZ in SL1 mode) is an example of "smart" triggering. In "dumb" optical triggering, the slave flash can be triggered by any strobe from an source. Some slave sensors can ignore the first strobe and is triggered on the second strobe. The Yonguo is an example of "dumb" optical triggering. The slave sensor (triggering the slave flash) can be built-in or added-on to the slave flash.

- RF triggering: this requires an RF transmitter and an RF receiver. The transmitter is attached to the camera's hotshoe, and is triggered by the camera just as a flash is. When the transmitter is triggered, it sends an RF signal to the receiver, which is attached to the flash's foot. The receiver then produces a sync signal, triggering the flash.

2. Flash metering

Flash exposure can be controlled by different ways:

- The camera measures the light reflected from the scene, and when it determines the exposure is correct, it tells the flash to quench the light output. In TTL-metering (I prefer Olympus's terminology: OTF - Off The Film), the metering is done during actual exposure. In p-TTL (or e-TTL, i-TTL, ....), the metering is determined before actual exposure, using a preflash strobe.

- The flash, with a light sensor of its own, measures the light reflected from the scene and determines when to quench its light output. To ensure the exposure seen by the camera is correct, the flash has to know the ISO and the aperture settings of the camera. Some flash/camera combinations can communicate the settings between the camera and the flash. This feature is commonly referred to as "auto" or "auto thyristor" flash mode.

- In manual flash mode, the user sets the camera's ISO and aperture depending on the light output of the flash. Some flashes can vary the light outputs to a predetermined-setting (full, 1/2, 1/4, ....).

I hope this post reduces the confusion.

[stormtech]

I hope this post reduces the confusion.

Yes it does! Especially this part:

- The flash, with a light sensor of its own, measures the light reflected from the scene and determines when to quench its light output. To ensure the exposure seen by the camera is correct, the flash has to know the ISO and the aperture settings of the camera. Some flash/camera combinations can communicate the settings between the camera and the flash. This feature is commonly referred to as "auto" or "auto thyristor" flash mode.

Now I just need to understand which flashes have this ability. In purchasing my second flash for off camera use, it would be nice to have the "auto" functionality built in although not necessary.

As I understand, when we were talking about the Sunpak 422D etc. flashes in the other thread, these do have that functionality of "auto thyristor". I was also considering the Yongnuo 560II but now see that it does not have that same functionality but does have a "slave" mode that will trigger the flash optically but only in manual mode.

I think I have it now - is what I am saying here right? Sorry - not trying to give anyone a hard time - sometimes I am kind of dense when trying to wrap my head around stuff like this.......

[SOldBear]

Yes it does!

I'm glad it helps.

Now I just need to understand which flashes have this ability. In purchasing my second flash for off camera use, it would be nice to have the "auto" functionality built in although not necessary.

As I understand, when we were talking about the Sunpak 422D etc. flashes in the other thread, these do have that functionality of "auto thyristor". I was also considering the Yongnuo 560II but now see that it does not have that same functionality but does have a "slave" mode that will trigger the flash optically but only in manual mode.

I have a rule for myself: I don't buy a flash if it does not have "auto" mode. There are a few reasons for this:

1. I use cameras of different brands. Whatever-TTL requires "dedication," meaning with a different camera brand (sometimes even with a camera of the same brand, but different model), that whatever-TTL mode becomes useless.

2. Some people/animals blink to the preflash strobe. Their eyes are more likely to close during actual exposure.

Note that you can not add "auto" mode. A flash either has it or doesn't. Optical triggering devices, on the other hand, can be added (I prefer RF anyway),

[stormtech]

I'm glad it helps.

Thanks for your patience - it is all a learning experience for me and I need to fully understand.

With what you said in your last post, I guess I need to get over that semi-bad ebay deal and get on a Sunpak flash again.