[Docrwm]

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I apologize if I have missed it listed here, but I did searches of this forum specifically and the entire site under both Fong and YouTube and found nothing this year. The YouTube Tutorial by Gary Fong was published January 17, 2013. I just got a 540 and am trying to learn P-TTL and the quirks of this system.

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[JimJohnson]

The K-5ii used by Fong in this video is of course Pentax's newest body, so I don't know if my statement applies to that body. I can say definitively that in earlier bodies that there are also two wireless modes for the built-in flash - #1, On (Master) or #2, Off (Controller). Now for the bad news, Pentax lied. The built-in flash DOES contribute to the lighting, even in Controller mode. SOldbear proved it. Do a search and you will find those posts. It is a myth that the built-in flash only goes off in the pre-flash, but not during the actual exposure.

Now to be fair, in Controller mode the built-in flash doesn't contribute much light, but there is a world of difference between not much and none. If you want to block the built-in flash from contributing to the exposure, but still have P-TTL wireless control, you will need to purchase one of these:
A N1 IR Panel for on Camera Pop Up Flash for Nikon Canon Pentax Olympus DSLR | eBay

you could also tape a sharp cut IR filter over your flash, but the above gizmo is a lot simpler, and probably less expensive.

[JinDesu]

Well, from his video, looks like the k-5II/s has solved that issue.

[JimJohnson]

Well, from his video, looks like the k-5II/s has solved that issue.

I'd say "perhaps". If one of the readers has a K-5ii (or iis) and a wireless P-TTL flash, would you do the following and report whether or not you see the built-in flash in the picture?

Set up your flash for off-camera wireless P-TTL. Set the built-in flash to off (so-called Controller mode). Now position the camera and the off-camera flash in front of a mirror so that both flashes can be seen in the viewfinder. Take a picture.

How many flashes do you see in the picture? If the built-in flash truly did not contribute to the photo, all you should see is the off-camera flash. However if the built-in flash does fire while the shutter is open, you will see both flashes in your picture.

On my K-r, I can see both flashes in the picture. The built-in flash may not contribute much in Controller mode, but there is a world of difference between a little and none.

[Neo_]

I'd say "perhaps". If one of the readers has a K-5ii (or iis) and a wireless P-TTL flash, would you do the following and report whether or not you see the built-in flash in the picture?

Set up your flash for off-camera wireless P-TTL. Set the built-in flash to off (so-called Controller mode). Now position the camera and the off-camera flash in front of a mirror so that both flashes can be seen in the viewfinder. Take a picture.

How many flashes do you see in the picture? If the built-in flash truly did not contribute to the photo, all you should see is the off-camera flash. However if the built-in flash does fire while the shutter is open, you will see both flashes in your picture.

On my K-r, I can see both flashes in the picture. The built-in flash may not contribute much in Controller mode, but there is a world of difference between a little and none.

on my k5 I solve the issue with a metz ir clamp which is even nicer and clearer than the ebay gizmo

[JimJohnson]

on my k5 I solve the issue with a metz ir clamp which is even nicer and clearer than the ebay gizmo

The issue I am having with your recommendation Neo is that I can't find where this attachment is sold separate from specific Metz flash units. Can you point us to a source?

For others, think of one of those big spring loaded clamshell hair clips. Metz has produced something along those lines that clips over the pop-up flash on your camera. Like the IR panel that mounts in your flash shoe and hangs over the flash tube on your pop-up flash, it blocks most visible light from your pop-up flash but passes the IR signal that controls your wireless P-TTL flash. The difference between the two units is in design, not function.

[Neo_]

The issue I am having with your recommendation Neo is that I can't find where this attachment is sold separate from specific Metz flash units. Can you point us to a source?

For others, think of one of those big spring loaded clamshell hair clips. Metz has produced something along those lines that clips over the pop-up flash on your camera. Like the IR panel that mounts in your flash shoe and hangs over the flash tube on your pop-up flash, it blocks most visible light from your pop-up flash but passes the IR signal that controls your wireless P-TTL flash. The difference between the two units is in design, not function.

if it still works that way, you can get in touch with metz and ask for the spare part (I mean you could have lost the thing...)

Contact Person: Metz

there is a "spare parts service" in that page

[JimJohnson]

Let's see, I go online and buy a part in a minute or two 24X7, versus using contact forms or writing to obtain a "spare part" of unknown cost when I don't own a Metz flash and it is pretty obvious that Metz really doesn't intend this part to be sold separately?

I am not flaming you Neo_, honestly I am not. The Metz IR clamp does look more elegant than the IR shield I pointed to (and by the way, Nikon sells the exact same IR shield for much more under their brand name). My point is I am a fairly practical person so there would also have to be a big price difference to compensate me for the time it would apparently take to obtain this part from Metz. At US$12 for the IR shield, including shipping from eBay, I tend to doubt it would pay to track down a Metz part that offers no functional improvement. That is why I asked if you could point me to a retail source for just Metz's IR clamp.

Getting back to my original question - do we have any K-5ii or K5iis owners with a wireless P-TTL flash willing to confirm whether or not Pentax has corrected the Controller mode so the flash from the built-in unit has NO impact on the image?

[adwb]

HMM,

this nr 1 panel is part of the excellent Aokatec wireless trigger which works in full direct sun unlike the Pentax of camera flash system which gets blown out by bright light.

there is thread or two in this Aokatec product, that are well worth a read.

looking at the demo video the controller flash is not showing in the image compared to the master image

[JimJohnson]

HMM,

this nr 1 panel is part of the excellent Aokatec wireless trigger which works in full direct sun unlike the Pentax of camera flash system which gets blown out by bright light.

there is thread or two in this Aokatec product, that are well worth a read.

looking at the demo video the controller flash is not showing in the image compared to the master image

The Aokatec wireless TTL setup isn't 'cheap' at a suggested price of US$110 for the starter set (another US$60 for each additional receiver), nor is the setup elegant, but if you need full wireless P-TTL functionality bypassing IR based control, you are unlikely to find it at a better price. Oh, and you can find these products from multiple retailers - just do a web search for "AK-TTL".

The images in Gary Fong's demo video look just like my early experiments with wireless P-TTL and my K-r. I too was fooled into thinking that when my camera's pop-up flash was placed into wireless Controller mode that my flash was truly OFF during the exposure. I thought ALL I was seeing was the pre-flashes that happened BEFORE my shutter opened. It was SOldbear who burst my bubble. He has already told me I was welcome when I previously thanked him for running my day.

But in fact, again even if the pop-up flash is contributing only a little light DURING the exposure, it is NOT the same as contributing NO light to the exposure. You really have to use his mirror test to definitively prove this isn't happening. I already know that the cameras produced prior to the K-5ii (s) DO contribute to the exposure in Controller mode. This is why I am asking a K-5ii owner to run the test. Personally, if I had the spare change, I'd buy a K-5iis in a heat beat and run the test myself ... it only takes a couple minutes. But until I win the lottery (is it true you have to buy a ticket for that to happen?), I currently cannot afford a K-5iis body.

Now, let me also proclaim that under most circumstances it really doesn't matter if the pop-up in Controller mode does provide a little extra light during exposure. If there is either sufficient ambient light or enough bounce surfaces, you will never notice it (just like you can't see it in Gary Fong's demo). But it would likely make itself known if you were to do a shot with highly light absorbent surfaces around the subject and a snout on your flash coming from the side. I will stipulate that for most shots we are making the proverbial 'tempest in a teapot'. In short, arguing for the sake of arguing. But I've seen longer threads in this Forum on what I would consider even more trivial topics.

[Neo_]

Let's see, I go online and buy a part in a minute or two 24X7, versus using contact forms or writing to obtain a "spare part" of unknown cost when I don't own a Metz flash and it is pretty obvious that Metz really doesn't intend this part to be sold separately?

I am not flaming you Neo_, honestly I am not. The Metz IR clamp does look more elegant than the IR shield I pointed to (and by the way, Nikon sells the exact same IR shield for much more under their brand name). My point is I am a fairly practical person so there would also have to be a big price difference to compensate me for the time it would apparently take to obtain this part from Metz. At US$12 for the IR shield, including shipping from eBay, I tend to doubt it would pay to track down a Metz part that offers no functional improvement. That is why I asked if you could point me to a retail source for just Metz's IR clamp.

Getting back to my original question - do we have any K-5ii or K5iis owners with a wireless P-TTL flash willing to confirm whether or not Pentax has corrected the Controller mode so the flash from the built-in unit has NO impact on the image?

I understand your point.
Sure you can go on ebay and click "buy" or get in touch with metz and waist more time, I don't know of retail sources for the clamp but I do know of people purchasing it directly by metz as "spare part", and honestly I don't blame metz for not selling the thing separatley since it's intended to be a "part" of one of their flashes and purchased for a very specific and limited use that does not justify distribution on large scale for sale purpose IMHO.
So yes if you don't care about the hassle and time and want a more elegant solution go to the clamp, other turn to ebay, personally I hate gizmos that slide in the hotshoe, like the lumiquest soft screen... but that's just me.

[adwb]

Jim as you say in bright ambient /reflective surroundings the pop up contribution is negligible so it is is in most but not all circumstances not much of a issue.

What for me as a outdoor user of flash is a far greater concern is the failure rate using control mode when the ambient is high even with the head swiveled so the flash receiver is facing the camera .

the flash does not move but I do and that puts the flash receiver out of direct line of sight and in bright light it no longer works , so if you are try to use the flash for fill flash you are out of luck.

the Aokatec does get you round this as it is a electronic signal not infra red.

Before the Aokatec, in bright light the only option was full manual mode , for me not a problem but it is one for lots of photographers however. and also involves some cost for triggers and transmitter.

[IchabodCrane]

The Aokatec wireless TTL setup isn't 'cheap' at a suggested price of US$110 for the starter set (another US$60 for each additional receiver), nor is the setup elegant, but if you need full wireless P-TTL functionality bypassing IR based control, you are unlikely to find it at a better price. Oh, and you can find these products from multiple retailers - just do a web search for "AK-TTL".

The images in Gary Fong's demo video look just like my early experiments with wireless P-TTL and my K-r. I too was fooled into thinking that when my camera's pop-up flash was placed into wireless Controller mode that my flash was truly OFF during the exposure. I thought ALL I was seeing was the pre-flashes that happened BEFORE my shutter opened. It was SOldbear who burst my bubble. He has already told me I was welcome when I previously thanked him for running my day.

But in fact, again even if the pop-up flash is contributing only a little light DURING the exposure, it is NOT the same as contributing NO light to the exposure. You really have to use his mirror test to definitively prove this isn't happening. I already know that the cameras produced prior to the K-5ii (s) DO contribute to the exposure in Controller mode. This is why I am asking a K-5ii owner to run the test. Personally, if I had the spare change, I'd buy a K-5iis in a heat beat and run the test myself ... it only takes a couple minutes. But until I win the lottery (is it true you have to buy a ticket for that to happen?), I currently cannot afford a K-5iis body.

Now, let me also proclaim that under most circumstances it really doesn't matter if the pop-up in Controller mode does provide a little extra light during exposure. If there is either sufficient ambient light or enough bounce surfaces, you will never notice it (just like you can't see it in Gary Fong's demo). But it would likely make itself known if you were to do a shot with highly light absorbent surfaces around the subject and a snout on your flash coming from the side. I will stipulate that for most shots we are making the proverbial 'tempest in a teapot'. In short, arguing for the sake of arguing. But I've seen longer threads in this Forum on what I would consider even more trivial topics.

Isn't that a one-in-a-thousand circumstance that you could easily mitigate with small changes to the setup/surfaces?

Basically and as long as the slave flash isn't set to minimum power itself, Wong's video confirms the pop up flash in controller mode is inconsequential for the exposure .

[JimJohnson]

Still... inquisitive minds want to know....did Pentax fix this (can they fix this?) with their newest body.

Personally, I still have 4 feet of snow in my back yard and a pile over 10 feet high next to my driveway. Sure I could pull out my skies or snowshoes and go shoot more trees that are tall enough to poke above the snow, but I am so DONE with that right now. So until spring finally arrives, it is much more fun to hold semi-pointless discussions on line.

[IchabodCrane]

Still... inquisitive minds want to know....did Pentax fix this (can they fix this?) with their newest body.

Personally, I still have 4 feet of snow in my back yard and a pile over 10 feet high next to my driveway. Sure I could pull out my skies or snowshoes and go shoot more trees that are tall enough to poke above the snow, but I am so DONE with that right now. So until spring finally arrives, it is much more fun to hold semi-pointless discussions on line.

I don't have a K-5ii but it's inconceivable they changed this. I personally wouldn't view it to be a "fix" anyway when you consider it would break how the whole system works. Are you thinking Pentax should make a wholesale change to a radio system and thereby obsolete every wireless-capable flash they've sold?