Flash rings for macros?

minahasa · 04-24-2013, 10:42 AM

I'm buying Sigma 105 macro and thinking about getting a ring flash. Plenty of LED rings out there, but I thought that the old school bulb will be better. The problem is always the price. Getting the PENTAX AF 160FC is out of the question, unfotunatelly. So me cheap eyes found these things floating like everywhere

The question is, will it work with my Pentax DSLRs? The first one uses sync port, which I'm still trying to comprehend, while the second ones with hot shoe connectors, which I think will be easier for me to understand. What about the sync speed? LED rings only goes to /100 sec. so I hope these one could do better.
Voltage? Am I frying my camera?

kenafein · 04-24-2013, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by minahasa

I'm buying Sigma 105 macro and thinking about getting a ring flash. Plenty of LED rings out there, but I thought that the old school bulb will be better. The problem is always the price. Getting the PENTAX AF 160FC is out of the question, unfotunatelly. So me cheap eyes found these things floating like everywhere

The question is, will it work with my Pentax DSLRs? The first one uses sync port, which I'm still trying to comprehend, while the second ones with hot shoe connectors, which I think will be easier for me to understand. What about the sync speed? LED rings only goes to /100 sec. so I hope these one could do better.
Voltage? Am I frying my camera?

I had a previous version of that, gave it to my mom for her EPL1, it works fine as an Auto-mode flash. Just set the white balance as indicated.

SOldBear · 04-24-2013, 11:58 AM

If the ring flash does not have p-TTL, or if p-TTL does not work well, the best ring flash is one with manual power ratios.

In many cases, auto thyristor does not work very well because

1. The light sensor of the flash measure an "average" field (normally about 25 degrees). In macro photography, the object to be photographed is generally very small compared with the surrounding, you hardly have an "average" scene.

2. The "correct" aperture should be based on the distance from the light source to the image sensor plane. Many ring flash has the light sensor on the flash in front of the lens, not in plane with the image sensor.

3. At macro focusing distance, the actual aperture of the lens is not necessarily the same as the aperture set by the lens or by the camera. At 1:2 magnification ratio, the actual aperture is 1 stop slower than the set value. At 1:1, the actual aperture is about 2 stops slower.

Among old ring flashes, I recommend Sunpak DX-8R or DX-12R. The DX-8R has 3 auto thyristor mode settings and 5 power ratio settings (1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16). The DX-12R has 5 power ratio settings (it has TTL but that doesn't count). The DX-12R is larger (up to lens with 77mm filter thread I think) and has modeling lamps to help with focusing.

bluestringer · 04-24-2013, 12:10 PM

I have the first one, but in the Vivitar version, works ok. It use the sync port on the camera, which as far as I know is only available on the K5 and K7. It can also use a hot shoe adapter that has a sync socket. I also have the Sunpak DX-8R, which as stated is much better because of the power setting. I use it for most all my macros. You can usually find the Sunpak for under 50 dollars. You can use sync speed up to 1/180 with it.

minahasa · 04-24-2013, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by bluestringer

I have the first one, but in the Vivitar version, works ok. It use the sync port on the camera, which as far as I know is only available on the K5 and K7. It can also use a hot shoe adapter that has a sync socket. I also have the Sunpak DX-8R, which as stated is much better because of the power setting. I use it for most all my macros. You can usually find the Sunpak for under 50 dollars. You can use sync speed up to 1/180 with it.

I'll try to find those Sunpaks..but I'm all ears in case anyone here got a spare..

GibbyTheMole · 04-25-2013, 05:04 AM

The Vivitar DR5000 is $50 new & works great. Here 'tis.

bdery · 04-25-2013, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by GibbyTheMole

The Vivitar DR5000 is $50 new & works great. Here 'tis.

It's the most recommended macro ring flash these days. Stay away from LED lamps, they are not powerful enough sadly. For 50$ it's a safe bet.

minahasa · 05-01-2013, 08:13 PM

I'm interested on DR5000, however B&H only provided UPS shipping to me, which is pretty high.. Anyone can help with USPS? Thanks

hangman43 · 05-06-2013, 08:46 PM

Actually I did not like the results I got with ring flash after dozens of light set ups over the past 3 years I have decided the best is to use a regular speed light on a homemade bracket with a soft box to diffuse the light.
This is my set up and it was not expensive
YN560 Flash+ Cowboy Studios wireless triggers 2 cheap umbrella mounts screwed together to give my articulation so I can get flash out to the end of my lens with tubes or without tubes.

You can check my Flikr and the Insect and Spider threads on here for results

SOldBear · 05-06-2013, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by hangman43

I have decided the best is to use a regular speed light on a homemade bracket with a soft box...

Looks similar?

A ring flash does have its place, however.

minahasa · 05-07-2013, 11:58 AM

hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous!

I have no doubt that they'll give awesome results though..
The kind of macro I love to do is insects, so I suppose ring lights will be, say, more 'low profile', don't you think? My 'working zone' is bushes and grass, including river banks and lake shores, so being 'light' what matters the most. I have decided to get the Tamron 90/2.8 (because it's cheaper, yes) and I have raynox 250. Now I'm doing macro with a Yongnuo manual flash and a pringles can, sometimes with build-in flash and pringles can.

bdery · 05-07-2013, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by minahasa

hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous!

You'll be using a tripod, which means one or more hands will be free. You can get a radio or cable trigger and simply hand hold it to one side.

hangman43 · 05-07-2013, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by minahasa

hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous!

I have no doubt that they'll give awesome results though..
The kind of macro I love to do is insects, so I suppose ring lights will be, say, more 'low profile', don't you think? My 'working zone' is bushes and grass, including river banks and lake shores, so being 'light' what matters the most. I have decided to get the Tamron 90/2.8 (because it's cheaper, yes) and I have raynox 250. Now I'm doing macro with a Yongnuo manual flash and a pringles can, sometimes with build-in flash and pringles can.

If you look at my photos most are insects always shot in the wild and never use a tripod all my shots are handheld actually my rig is not hard to handle at all.

minahasa · 05-07-2013, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by bdery

You'll be using a tripod, which means one or more hands will be free. You can get a radio or cable trigger and simply hand hold it to one side.

I understand that tripod is essensial for macros, but from experience with insecs, I have only 2-3 seconds to shot before it's gone, then I have to chase around, again and again on rugged terrain, so I think tripods will slow me, or even endanger me. I rarely shoot under 1/100, mostly at 1/160 -thanks to our Pentax' slow flash sync

..if I could do more than 1/160 I'll be more than happy, but that would mean getting a HSS flash?

Originally posted by hangman43

If you look at my photos most are insects always shot in the wild and never use a tripod all my shots are handheld actually my rig is not hard to handle at all.

I have interest in your setups, I must say, since I almost have all of it. The reason I'm into ring flash is that I imagine that the light will be more even, less shadow. With your 'one directional' setup, how do you manage to get rid of the shadow? I have tried pringles can as a diffuser, it helped, but I still get shadow under.

Added for reference:
These are the kinds of macros I'm doing. I'm into <1:1 macros and yearning to get closer and closer.

Raynox 250 with Sigma 18-200

Raynox 250 + SMC M 100mm f/2.8 + ExTubes

All images uncropped.

hangman43 · 05-07-2013, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by minahasa

I understand that tripod is essensial for macros, but from experience with insecs, I have only 2-3 seconds to shot before it's gone, then I have to chase around, again and again on rugged terrain, so I think tripods will slow me, or even endanger me. I rarely shoot under 1/100, mostly at 1/160 -thanks to our Pentax' slow flash sync

..if I could do more than 1/160 I'll be more than happy, but that would mean getting a HSS flash?

I have interest in your setups, I must say, since I almost have all of it. The reason I'm into ring flash is that I imagine that the light will be more even, less shadow. With your 'one directional' setup, how do you manage to get rid of the shadow? I have tried pringles can as a diffuser, it helped, but I still get shadow under.

Added for reference:
These are the kinds of macros I'm doing. I'm into <1:1 macros and yearning to get closer and closer.

Raynox 250 with Sigma 18-200

Raynox 250 + SMC M 100mm f/2.8 + ExTubes

All images uncropped.

Actually you want some shadow or the subject looks flat here are a few examples taken with my set up all my macro is handheld never used a tripod for my macro takes to long to set up and bugs usually are not that patient

105mm 1:1 with 65mm tubes approximately 2.5:1 subject 3mm long

If you look way back at some of my Flickr stuff you can see how my set up has progressed over the years a lot of my stuff has been homemade and cheap because I do not have the money to buy the fancy gear. Tomorrow if the weather is nice will break out the ring flash and post some comparisons shot for you.

04-24-2013, 10:42 AM	#1
minahasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi) Photos: Albums Posts: 586	Flash rings for macros? I'm buying Sigma 105 macro and thinking about getting a ring flash. Plenty of LED rings out there, but I thought that the old school bulb will be better. The problem is always the price. Getting the PENTAX AF 160FC is out of the question, unfotunatelly. So me cheap eyes found these things floating like everywhere The question is, will it work with my Pentax DSLRs? The first one uses sync port, which I'm still trying to comprehend, while the second ones with hot shoe connectors, which I think will be easier for me to understand. What about the sync speed? LED rings only goes to /100 sec. so I hope these one could do better. Voltage? Am I frying my camera?

04-24-2013, 11:58 AM	#3
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	If the ring flash does not have p-TTL, or if p-TTL does not work well, the best ring flash is one with manual power ratios. In many cases, auto thyristor does not work very well because 1. The light sensor of the flash measure an "average" field (normally about 25 degrees). In macro photography, the object to be photographed is generally very small compared with the surrounding, you hardly have an "average" scene. 2. The "correct" aperture should be based on the distance from the light source to the image sensor plane. Many ring flash has the light sensor on the flash in front of the lens, not in plane with the image sensor. 3. At macro focusing distance, the actual aperture of the lens is not necessarily the same as the aperture set by the lens or by the camera. At 1:2 magnification ratio, the actual aperture is 1 stop slower than the set value. At 1:1, the actual aperture is about 2 stops slower. Among old ring flashes, I recommend Sunpak DX-8R or DX-12R. The DX-8R has 3 auto thyristor mode settings and 5 power ratio settings (1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16). The DX-12R has 5 power ratio settings (it has TTL but that doesn't count). The DX-12R is larger (up to lens with 77mm filter thread I think) and has modeling lamps to help with focusing. Last edited by SOldBear; 04-24-2013 at 12:24 PM.

05-07-2013, 08:03 PM	#14
minahasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi) Photos: Albums Posts: 586 Original Poster	Originally posted by bdery You'll be using a tripod, which means one or more hands will be free. You can get a radio or cable trigger and simply hand hold it to one side. I understand that tripod is essensial for macros, but from experience with insecs, I have only 2-3 seconds to shot before it's gone, then I have to chase around, again and again on rugged terrain, so I think tripods will slow me, or even endanger me. I rarely shoot under 1/100, mostly at 1/160 -thanks to our Pentax' slow flash sync ..if I could do more than 1/160 I'll be more than happy, but that would mean getting a HSS flash? Originally posted by hangman43 If you look at my photos most are insects always shot in the wild and never use a tripod all my shots are handheld actually my rig is not hard to handle at all. I have interest in your setups, I must say, since I almost have all of it. The reason I'm into ring flash is that I imagine that the light will be more even, less shadow. With your 'one directional' setup, how do you manage to get rid of the shadow? I have tried pringles can as a diffuser, it helped, but I still get shadow under. Added for reference: These are the kinds of macros I'm doing. I'm into <1:1 macros and yearning to get closer and closer. Raynox 250 with Sigma 18-200 Raynox 250 + SMC M 100mm f/2.8 + ExTubes All images uncropped. Last edited by minahasa; 05-07-2013 at 08:20 PM.

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04-24-2013, 10:58 AM	#2
kenafein Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Southern California Photos: Albums Posts: 4,082	Originally posted by minahasa I'm buying Sigma 105 macro and thinking about getting a ring flash. Plenty of LED rings out there, but I thought that the old school bulb will be better. The problem is always the price. Getting the PENTAX AF 160FC is out of the question, unfotunatelly. So me cheap eyes found these things floating like everywhere The question is, will it work with my Pentax DSLRs? The first one uses sync port, which I'm still trying to comprehend, while the second ones with hot shoe connectors, which I think will be easier for me to understand. What about the sync speed? LED rings only goes to /100 sec. so I hope these one could do better. Voltage? Am I frying my camera? I had a previous version of that, gave it to my mom for her EPL1, it works fine as an Auto-mode flash. Just set the white balance as indicated.

04-24-2013, 12:10 PM	#4
bluestringer Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Cotton fields of South Georgia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,748	I have the first one, but in the Vivitar version, works ok. It use the sync port on the camera, which as far as I know is only available on the K5 and K7. It can also use a hot shoe adapter that has a sync socket. I also have the Sunpak DX-8R, which as stated is much better because of the power setting. I use it for most all my macros. You can usually find the Sunpak for under 50 dollars. You can use sync speed up to 1/180 with it.

04-24-2013, 08:52 PM	#5
minahasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi) Photos: Albums Posts: 586 Original Poster	Originally posted by bluestringer I have the first one, but in the Vivitar version, works ok. It use the sync port on the camera, which as far as I know is only available on the K5 and K7. It can also use a hot shoe adapter that has a sync socket. I also have the Sunpak DX-8R, which as stated is much better because of the power setting. I use it for most all my macros. You can usually find the Sunpak for under 50 dollars. You can use sync speed up to 1/180 with it. I'll try to find those Sunpaks..but I'm all ears in case anyone here got a spare..

04-25-2013, 05:04 AM	#6
GibbyTheMole Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Iowa Photos: Albums Posts: 2,275	The Vivitar DR5000 is $50 new & works great. Here 'tis.

04-25-2013, 05:22 AM	#7
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by GibbyTheMole The Vivitar DR5000 is $50 new & works great. Here 'tis. It's the most recommended macro ring flash these days. Stay away from LED lamps, they are not powerful enough sadly. For 50$ it's a safe bet.

05-01-2013, 08:13 PM	#8
minahasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi) Photos: Albums Posts: 586 Original Poster	I'm interested on DR5000, however B&H only provided UPS shipping to me, which is pretty high.. Anyone can help with USPS? Thanks

05-06-2013, 08:46 PM	#9
hangman43 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Hueytown, Alabama Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,508	Actually I did not like the results I got with ring flash after dozens of light set ups over the past 3 years I have decided the best is to use a regular speed light on a homemade bracket with a soft box to diffuse the light. This is my set up and it was not expensive YN560 Flash+ Cowboy Studios wireless triggers 2 cheap umbrella mounts screwed together to give my articulation so I can get flash out to the end of my lens with tubes or without tubes. You can check my Flikr and the Insect and Spider threads on here for results

05-06-2013, 09:31 PM	#10
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by hangman43 I have decided the best is to use a regular speed light on a homemade bracket with a soft box... Looks similar? A ring flash does have its place, however.

05-07-2013, 11:58 AM	#11
minahasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi) Photos: Albums Posts: 586 Original Poster	hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous! I have no doubt that they'll give awesome results though.. The kind of macro I love to do is insects, so I suppose ring lights will be, say, more 'low profile', don't you think? My 'working zone' is bushes and grass, including river banks and lake shores, so being 'light' what matters the most. I have decided to get the Tamron 90/2.8 (because it's cheaper, yes) and I have raynox 250. Now I'm doing macro with a Yongnuo manual flash and a pringles can, sometimes with build-in flash and pringles can.

05-07-2013, 12:11 PM	#12
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by minahasa hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous! You'll be using a tripod, which means one or more hands will be free. You can get a radio or cable trigger and simply hand hold it to one side.

05-07-2013, 04:17 PM	#13
hangman43 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Hueytown, Alabama Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,508	Originally posted by minahasa hangman43 & SOldBear, okay those setups are monstrous! I have no doubt that they'll give awesome results though.. The kind of macro I love to do is insects, so I suppose ring lights will be, say, more 'low profile', don't you think? My 'working zone' is bushes and grass, including river banks and lake shores, so being 'light' what matters the most. I have decided to get the Tamron 90/2.8 (because it's cheaper, yes) and I have raynox 250. Now I'm doing macro with a Yongnuo manual flash and a pringles can, sometimes with build-in flash and pringles can. If you look at my photos most are insects always shot in the wild and never use a tripod all my shots are handheld actually my rig is not hard to handle at all.

05-07-2013, 08:36 PM	#15
hangman43 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Hueytown, Alabama Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,508	Originally posted by minahasa I understand that tripod is essensial for macros, but from experience with insecs, I have only 2-3 seconds to shot before it's gone, then I have to chase around, again and again on rugged terrain, so I think tripods will slow me, or even endanger me. I rarely shoot under 1/100, mostly at 1/160 -thanks to our Pentax' slow flash sync ..if I could do more than 1/160 I'll be more than happy, but that would mean getting a HSS flash? I have interest in your setups, I must say, since I almost have all of it. The reason I'm into ring flash is that I imagine that the light will be more even, less shadow. With your 'one directional' setup, how do you manage to get rid of the shadow? I have tried pringles can as a diffuser, it helped, but I still get shadow under. Added for reference: These are the kinds of macros I'm doing. I'm into <1:1 macros and yearning to get closer and closer. Raynox 250 with Sigma 18-200 Raynox 250 + SMC M 100mm f/2.8 + ExTubes All images uncropped. Actually you want some shadow or the subject looks flat here are a few examples taken with my set up all my macro is handheld never used a tripod for my macro takes to long to set up and bugs usually are not that patient 105mm 1:1 with 65mm tubes approximately 2.5:1 subject 3mm long If you look way back at some of my Flickr stuff you can see how my set up has progressed over the years a lot of my stuff has been homemade and cheap because I do not have the money to buy the fancy gear. Tomorrow if the weather is nice will break out the ring flash and post some comparisons shot for you.