Flash and shutter speed

lightbulb · 10-15-2013, 09:30 AM

Hi all

I am about to pull the trigger on the new wr Flash for extreme macro. But I know that the onboard could only do up to 1/180. Is that the same with external Flash? Also could I use Tv mode with external Flash and all will be compensated? Thanks.

Action Jackson · 10-15-2013, 02:02 PM

For my 2 flashes, TAv and Tv mode only go up to 1/180 sec. I do macro and if I can ask, what are you taking pictures of in macro to need something above 1/180sec?

**Lowell Goudge** · 10-15-2013, 02:21 PM

Depending on what DSLR you have pentax is either 1/150 or 1/180 for maximum flash sync. The camera (for modern flashes) detects the flash presence and if shutter is set above 1/180 will step it down to 1/180.

The maximum of any DSLR is 1/250 for canon and Nikon . If you have something like a Q it can do 1/2000 with the built in iris shutter in the lenses

yakky · 10-15-2013, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

The maximum of any DSLR is 1/250 for canon and Nikon . If you have something like a Q it can do 1/2000 with the built in iris shutter in the lenses

Actually the D40 and D70 went to 1/500, which is fantastic for daytime fill.

lightbulb · 10-15-2013, 04:52 PM

Oh that's a bummer. I am going beyond 1:1 macro with 100mm and dcr 250 handheld. In this case it is like using long telephoto lenses handheld. I just can't believe max 180 only. 150mm x 1.5 is already 225 of a second needed. What on earth is pentax thinking? And I love shooting jumping spider.

lightbulb · 10-15-2013, 05:34 PM

Seriously? ;

'With the Pentax K10D you have to switch your flash to HS (high speed) mode and set the camera to M (manual mode) and you can punch in any combination of aperture and shutter speed (yes 1/4000) and it works like a charm. Go Pentax!Reply'

**JimJohnson** · 10-15-2013, 06:21 PM

There are primarily two types of mechanical camera shutters - focal plane and leaf shutters. SLRs with interchangeable lenses, with rare exceptions, use focal plane shutters. Focal plane shutters are the size of the sensor and therefore have much more mass than leaf shutters which are typically mounted inside the lens itself.

Focal plane shutters also have two shutters (leading and trailing) each of which move at a constant speed no matter what the shutter speed is for the exposure. Variable shutter speed is achieved by changing the timing between the two shutters. For shutter speeds higher than the fixed curtain speed, exposure is achieved via a moving slit. Since the Pentax shutter takes 1/180th of a second to cross the sensor, that is the highest speed at which the entire sensor is exposed to light at the same instant.

High speed sync (HSS) flash strobes the flash at shutter speeds higher than 1/180th second as the slit moves across the sensor - but because the actual duration of the total exposure is always 1/180th second, HSS is typically a poor choice for capturing motion. Usually it is better at balancing flash lighting with very bright ambient lighting.

BrianR · 10-15-2013, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by lightbulb

Oh that's a bummer. I am going beyond 1:1 macro with 100mm and dcr 250 handheld. In this case it is like using long telephoto lenses handheld. I just can't believe max 180 only. 150mm x 1.5 is already 225 of a second needed. What on earth is pentax thinking? And I love shooting jumping spider.

If you aren't planning on allowing the ambient to contribute to the exposure, it's not usually an issue. The short flash duration will make hand holding no problem. At high magnifications you tend to lose light and want to use higher f-stops to counter the razor thin DoF, so killing the ambient doesn't usually require major sacrifices at 1/180th. It's at lower magnifications that 1/180th starts to become an issue for me, or if I had hoped to include the ambient as fill and a stable tripod isn't practical.

lightbulb · 10-15-2013, 08:05 PM

Just found that OMD EM1 could do 1/250.... hmm.... time to look around.....

Well truth be told I could even use 1/50s for extreme macro on moving objects with Pentax 100mm WR, the problem is KEEP RATE. The Canikon have better keep rates with 1/250s and it is even better with wider macro lenses (60mm). Life is too short for compromise.

**Miguel** · 10-15-2013, 10:00 PM

Consider a flash with a modeling light.

M

**JimJohnson** · 10-16-2013, 03:35 AM

Or give continuous lighting a try via either video lights or LED panels.

lightbulb · 10-16-2013, 04:59 AM

Looking forward to new toy yeah!

BrianR · 10-16-2013, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by lightbulb

Just found that OMD EM1 could do 1/250.... hmm.... time to look around.....

Well truth be told I could even use 1/50s for extreme macro on moving objects with Pentax 100mm WR, the problem is KEEP RATE. The Canikon have better keep rates with 1/250s and it is even better with wider macro lenses (60mm). Life is too short for compromise.

So you are planning to incorporate the ambient light into your photos? I'm trying to understand how a shutter speed from 1/180 to 1/250 will help at the extreme magnifications you're talking about.

derekkite · 10-16-2013, 06:46 PM

To get a jumping spider in the air you would need something seriously quick. My metz 50Af has a chart in the back where it says that at 1/16 power the flash is 1/6000 long. If I underexpose the scene 3 or 4 stops, shutter at 180, wouldn't the flash freeze movement? Usually macro is pretty close so the powerful flashes we use for light at a distance would have plenty of light for a close up like that. I know that with birds I can't freeze movement at 1/500.

lightbulb · 10-16-2013, 09:30 PM

dudes, go out and shot some 5 to 10mm bugs with 250s and 180s with DCR 250 and 70 to 100mm FL, it helps to understand where I am coming from if my explanation couldn't make any sense to you. If one word could sum it up, it is keeper rate. Have a good day all.

10-15-2013, 09:30 AM	#1
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691	Flash and shutter speed Hi all I am about to pull the trigger on the new wr Flash for extreme macro. But I know that the onboard could only do up to 1/180. Is that the same with external Flash? Also could I use Tv mode with external Flash and all will be compensated? Thanks.

10-15-2013, 06:21 PM	#7
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772	You might be a candidate for HSS flash There are primarily two types of mechanical camera shutters - focal plane and leaf shutters. SLRs with interchangeable lenses, with rare exceptions, use focal plane shutters. Focal plane shutters are the size of the sensor and therefore have much more mass than leaf shutters which are typically mounted inside the lens itself. Focal plane shutters also have two shutters (leading and trailing) each of which move at a constant speed no matter what the shutter speed is for the exposure. Variable shutter speed is achieved by changing the timing between the two shutters. For shutter speeds higher than the fixed curtain speed, exposure is achieved via a moving slit. Since the Pentax shutter takes 1/180th of a second to cross the sensor, that is the highest speed at which the entire sensor is exposed to light at the same instant. High speed sync (HSS) flash strobes the flash at shutter speeds higher than 1/180th second as the slit moves across the sensor - but because the actual duration of the total exposure is always 1/180th second, HSS is typically a poor choice for capturing motion. Usually it is better at balancing flash lighting with very bright ambient lighting.

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10-15-2013, 02:02 PM	#2
Action Jackson Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Markham, Ontario, CANADA Posts: 243	For my 2 flashes, TAv and Tv mode only go up to 1/180 sec. I do macro and if I can ask, what are you taking pictures of in macro to need something above 1/180sec?

10-15-2013, 02:21 PM	#3
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,888	Depending on what DSLR you have pentax is either 1/150 or 1/180 for maximum flash sync. The camera (for modern flashes) detects the flash presence and if shutter is set above 1/180 will step it down to 1/180. The maximum of any DSLR is 1/250 for canon and Nikon . If you have something like a Q it can do 1/2000 with the built in iris shutter in the lenses

10-15-2013, 02:28 PM	#4
yakky New Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 17	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge The maximum of any DSLR is 1/250 for canon and Nikon . If you have something like a Q it can do 1/2000 with the built in iris shutter in the lenses Actually the D40 and D70 went to 1/500, which is fantastic for daytime fill.

10-15-2013, 04:52 PM	#5
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691 Original Poster	Oh that's a bummer. I am going beyond 1:1 macro with 100mm and dcr 250 handheld. In this case it is like using long telephoto lenses handheld. I just can't believe max 180 only. 150mm x 1.5 is already 225 of a second needed. What on earth is pentax thinking? And I love shooting jumping spider.

10-15-2013, 05:34 PM	#6
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691 Original Poster	Seriously? ; 'With the Pentax K10D you have to switch your flash to HS (high speed) mode and set the camera to M (manual mode) and you can punch in any combination of aperture and shutter speed (yes 1/4000) and it works like a charm. Go Pentax!Reply'

10-15-2013, 07:30 PM	#8
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by lightbulb Oh that's a bummer. I am going beyond 1:1 macro with 100mm and dcr 250 handheld. In this case it is like using long telephoto lenses handheld. I just can't believe max 180 only. 150mm x 1.5 is already 225 of a second needed. What on earth is pentax thinking? And I love shooting jumping spider. If you aren't planning on allowing the ambient to contribute to the exposure, it's not usually an issue. The short flash duration will make hand holding no problem. At high magnifications you tend to lose light and want to use higher f-stops to counter the razor thin DoF, so killing the ambient doesn't usually require major sacrifices at 1/180th. It's at lower magnifications that 1/180th starts to become an issue for me, or if I had hoped to include the ambient as fill and a stable tripod isn't practical.

10-15-2013, 08:05 PM	#9
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691 Original Poster	Just found that OMD EM1 could do 1/250.... hmm.... time to look around..... Well truth be told I could even use 1/50s for extreme macro on moving objects with Pentax 100mm WR, the problem is KEEP RATE. The Canikon have better keep rates with 1/250s and it is even better with wider macro lenses (60mm). Life is too short for compromise.

10-15-2013, 10:00 PM	#10
Miguel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Near Seattle Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,743	Consider a flash with a modeling light. M

10-16-2013, 03:35 AM	#11
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772	Or give continuous lighting a try via either video lights or LED panels.

10-16-2013, 04:59 AM	#12
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691 Original Poster	Looking forward to new toy yeah!

10-16-2013, 06:07 AM	#13
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by lightbulb Just found that OMD EM1 could do 1/250.... hmm.... time to look around..... Well truth be told I could even use 1/50s for extreme macro on moving objects with Pentax 100mm WR, the problem is KEEP RATE. The Canikon have better keep rates with 1/250s and it is even better with wider macro lenses (60mm). Life is too short for compromise. So you are planning to incorporate the ambient light into your photos? I'm trying to understand how a shutter speed from 1/180 to 1/250 will help at the extreme magnifications you're talking about.

10-16-2013, 06:46 PM	#14
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	To get a jumping spider in the air you would need something seriously quick. My metz 50Af has a chart in the back where it says that at 1/16 power the flash is 1/6000 long. If I underexpose the scene 3 or 4 stops, shutter at 180, wouldn't the flash freeze movement? Usually macro is pretty close so the powerful flashes we use for light at a distance would have plenty of light for a close up like that. I know that with birds I can't freeze movement at 1/500.

10-16-2013, 09:30 PM	#15
lightbulb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 691 Original Poster	dudes, go out and shot some 5 to 10mm bugs with 250s and 180s with DCR 250 and 70 to 100mm FL, it helps to understand where I am coming from if my explanation couldn't make any sense to you. If one word could sum it up, it is keeper rate. Have a good day all.