[Class A]

However.... I see the Sigma is maxed out at ISO 1600 so I suppose pushing past that on my K5 settings will not work.

What do you mean by "maxed out"?

As the Sigma does not contribute to the exposure, it's settings do not matter. As long as it tells the camera that there is an HSS flash present and generates some (pre-) flash, you should be good.

[Class A]

BTW... 91 ms delay on the RF 60 slave works like a charm!

Note that you can also set the delay on the V6.

Setting the delay on the V6 as opposed to the flash is advantageous if you have multiple flashes as you only need to do it once. It is also easier to change, should the need to adapt it arise.

[howieb101]

Thanks Class A. It's just that the Bayside Graphics photo of his setup doesn't have the flash on top of the Cactus trigger (Have a look).

[Class A]

Thanks Class A. It's just that the Bayside Graphics photo of his setup doesn't have the flash on top of the Cactus trigger (Have a look).

Yes, I've seen the photo. But your suggestion works as well if you use TTL pass-through mode on the V6 and some light guide, e.g., a curved sheet of paper to make sure that the light of the flash reaches the V6 sensor at the front.

[Class A]

I don't think I ever posted this idea of how to use the V6 and a shutter release cable to achieve HyperSync / HSS with a Pentax DSLR without using any P-TTL equipment, here:

One needs

[A]: 1 x V6 (or V5) (in transmitter mode) to act as a trigger for both camera & flash(es)

[B]: 1 x V6 (or V5) (in receiver mode) as a remote trigger to trigger the camera

[C]: 1 x camera triggering cable (connecting [B] to the camera). For Pentax, this is a simple 2.5mm to 3.5mm stereo audio cable. Cactus sell a short version of that (SC-C1).

[D]: N x V6 (in receiver mode) (or RF60) for off-camera flash(es), all using a delay value that matches the shutter lag of the camera. This delay value can be easily be found out by experimentation.

The simple "trick" is to set a delay on all V6 attached to flashes (or on all RF60) [D] that corresponds to the shutter lag of the camera.

With this setup, one needs to take a shot by fully pressing the test button of [A].

This will fire both camera (through [B]&[C]) and remote flash(es) [D] at the same time. If the delay value is chosen correctly, the triggering of the flash(es) [D] will coincide with the exposure of the frame (as it will compensate for the shutter lag of the camera).

On my Pentax K-5 II and an FA 43/1.9 at f/8 and 1/500s shutter speed, I can consistently illuminate the whole frame when I set an off-camera RF60 to a delay of 91ms.

This technique will work with any flash when using 1/1 "full power", i.e., using the "HyperSync" technique, because a full power pulse is long enough to illuminate all of the frame.

With an RF60 set to "HSS" mode, however, even flash powers less than "1/1" are possible, and the frame illumination will be even (rather than graduated as is unavoidable with the above "HyperSync" technique).

P.S.: You may think that there is an alternative solution that eliminates the remote control [A], by just using the unit [B] that is connected to the camera as a trigger in Tx mode. While that should work in principle, it does not neither with my K100D nor with my K-5 II. The latter, after a while, will start to send signals through its remote shutter port to the V6 Tx [B] that will make it fire rapidly. I have no idea why the camera does that, but it does.

[maxfield_photo]

Thanks Class A. I had tried the setup you describe back when just the V5s were available, and the flashes fired, but did not illuminate the frame at all. I could tell that the shutter and the flashes weren't in sync, but it was difficult to tell which was happening first.

A question though: I'm under the impression that with hypersyncing the goal is to avoid the peak of the flash's output and just capture the tail due to the unevenness of illumination that the peak will cause as the shutter curtains traverse the sensor. Can you comment on the evenness of the illumination you're getting, or even post a picture of, oh, maybe a solid colored wall?

I'm wondering which method, Sympathetic HSS or Hypersyncing, provides the most daylight-killing power? And which provides the most useable results?

[Class A]

I had tried the setup you describe back when just the V5s were available, and the flashes fired, but did not illuminate the frame at all.

The setup would work with a V5-only setup if the flashes used were RF60. The latter provide a delay feature just like the V6. With regular flashes, one needs to use V6 receivers to delay their output.

Without a delay of the flash output, the flashes will always fire significantly too early due to the camera's shutter lag.

I'm under the impression that with hypersyncing the goal is to avoid the peak of the flash's output and just capture the tail due to the unevenness of illumination that the peak will cause as the shutter curtains traverse the sensor.

That's correct.

With the setup I described (but also by using optical triggering) you can choose to keep as much or little (including none) of the output peak in.

Note that the shutter curtains move downwards which means -- considering the upside-down image projected by the lens -- that uneven illumination as in the HyperSync technique will cause the bottom of the frame to be more illuminated than the top.

This can be useful outdoors when the top part of the image is featuring sky and does not need any flash illumination anyhow.

Can you comment on the evenness of the illumination you're getting, or even post a picture of, oh, maybe a solid colored wall?

The evenness depends on when you fire the flash. The farther away you get from the peak, the more even it will be, but the weaker overall it will become as well.

The light fall-off after the peak is exponential so you shouldn't expect anything close to even illumination. I'm currently too busy to prepare any demonstration of the effect, but you should be able to produce these images yourself.

I'm wondering which method, Sympathetic HSS or Hypersyncing, provides the most daylight-killing power?

I'm pretty sure it is HSS.

If you avoid the peak when using HyperSync then you lose a lot of the output.

HSS means that the flash produces continuous bursts of light at the appropriate output level.

BTW, for both HyperSync and HSS, the flash's contribution to exposure will be diminished by increasing shutter speed. So if you increase shutter speed to combat daylight then you are also reducing the contribution of the flash. At, or below, the sync-speed, the flash can always illuminate the full frame, independently of the shutter speed. That is no longer true when the sync-speed is exceeded and further reductions in shutter speed are achieved by decreasing the size of the slit defined by the first and the second curtain.

And which provides the most useable results?

I haven't run any respective tests, but I'm pretty sure that HSS is the better technique in general as it provides more even illumination.

See above, though, for when uneven illumination may not pose a problem.

You may also use a graduated filter to compensate for uneven illumination. Unless you confine the effect to elements near the flash, however, you will probably introduce a funny looking gradient for the background, as the flash's contribution will be much stronger on elements close to it (inverse square law effect).

[philbaum]

Thanks to Class A for the excellent review.

I used the V6 and RF60 for a shoot last Tuesday. Couldn't figure out how to adjust zoom from the V6 till today, it just wouldn't show up in the main V6 window. Well, finally found the Swap Control Option in the sub-menu where it gives you the choice between power adjust and zoom. But turns out that when you select zoom, it gives you control over both power and zoom. Cool now to know how to adjust zoom also.

Friday, i did a promo shot for the playhouse. was lacking my usual light stand adapter, so used a plastic desk mount. Did not adequately tighten down the shotshoe connection on the flash. Subsequently the rf60 flash fell 6 feet onto a concrete floor with a loud noise. The battery door popped open and batteries scattered across the floor. Reinstalled the batteries into the flash and it still worked - AWESOME. The flash would not install on a hotshoe, however, because the metal foot plate had bent where it hit the floor and the wheel lock was also binding excessively. Later at home, took the lower hotshoe cap off the flash with 4 screw removal, removed the metal hotshoe plate by 4 more screws. Used a hammer to flatten the hotshoe plate. Rethreaded the locking wheel - it had jumped a thread. And now everything works fine - AWESOME. Conclusion: This flash is built like a Sherman Tank :-) And i will never ever forget to tighten down that wheel.

Because i didn't know if the flash can be repaired, i ordered a replacement. Adorama currently has the RF60 and V6 bundle on sale for $195.

I also have a Nex6 with a standard hotshoe. This equipment also works on that.

I think this is super equipment. Another good aspect is that the V6 takes 2 AA batteries, unlike the V5 which needed 3 AAA batteries. Now i don't need to carry 2 types of spare batteries around - and the 2 AA seem to have longevity over the AAA types. Excellent.

[Class A]

Good to hear that you were able to beat the plate back into shape again.

I had an RF60 take a tumble onto concrete as well when wind blew over one of my softboxes. The RF60 got scratched quite a bit and looks like it survived a battle but is still working just fine. So yes, I concur that they feature quite robust construction.

[QuixoticTonic]

Could I get some clarification on the HSS mode and RF60? I read somewhere else that the basic reason you need to set a delay on the RF60 in HSS Sympathy Mode is to wait for the preflashes to finish. What about not using any preflash or delay?

Is the camera 'seeing' a flash and refusing higher shutter speeds unless the body is in HSS mode, thus requiring preflashes and a delay? Hypothetically, if a particular camera fired an old, dumb manual flash at any shutter speed either at the hot shoe or pc sync port, couldn't you put the RF60 in HSS mode (where you can still control it's power) with a delay of 0 and have the V6 trigger it just like at any other shutter speed? It seems like the only difference between that and any other situation would be the RF60 knowing it needs to make longer flash pulses. But it can do that. So why all the complicated workarounds? Why does the camera need to preflash?

Thanks

[Class A]

I read somewhere else that the basic reason you need to set a delay on the RF60 in HSS Sympathy Mode is to wait for the preflashes to finish.

You don't necessarily need a delay on an RF60.

As long as you are not exceeding a certain shutter speed (1/2000s still worked fine for me), you can simply trigger on the main flash of an on-camera HSS flash with zero delay. You can do that optically using a RF60 directly, or by using a Cactus V6 trigger as a trigger nearby the camera.

What about not using any preflash or delay?

See above.

In general, unfortunately, Pentax decided to disable hot-shoe triggering once the shutter speed exceeds the sync speed. Hence, you can no longer use any non-P-TTL equipment, unless you use the HSS workaround technique I described earlier.

So unless you use the above referenced technique, you need on HSS-capabable flash connected to the camera in order to get a trigger signal at all.

Is the camera 'seeing' a flash and refusing higher shutter speeds unless the body is in HSS mode, thus requiring preflashes and a delay?

Not quite.

The camera is refusing to provide a flash trigger signal once the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed (1/180s).

So why all the complicated workarounds?

I hope it has become clear by now.

The workarounds are necessary to obtain synchronisation between the flashes and the camera once the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed. This is an unnecessary complication with the Pentax approach to hot-shoe triggering (not present with Nikon, for instance), but that's what we have to live with as Pentaxians.

Very recently, PrioLite announced Pentax support for their HSS strobes. This solution obviates the need for workarounds as it simulates the presence of an HSS-capable flash. One can hope that similar triggers for less expensive lighting solutions will be offered by other companies in the future.

[QuixoticTonic]

You don't necessarily need a delay on an RF60.

As long as you are not exceeding a certain shutter speed (1/2000s still worked fine for me), you can simply trigger on the main flash of an on-camera HSS flash with zero delay. You can do that optically using a RF60 directly, or by using a Cactus V6 trigger as a trigger nearby the camera.


See above.

In general, unfortunately, Pentax decided to disable hot-shoe triggering once the shutter speed exceeds the sync speed. Hence, you can no longer use any non-P-TTL equipment, unless you use the HSS workaround technique I described earlier.

So unless you use the above referenced technique, you need on HSS-capabable flash connected to the camera in order to get a trigger signal at all.


Not quite.

The camera is refusing to provide a flash trigger signal once the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed (1/180s).


I hope it has become clear by now.

The workarounds are necessary to obtain synchronisation between the flashes and the camera once the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed. This is an unnecessary complication with the Pentax approach to hot-shoe triggering (not present with Nikon, for instance), but that's what we have to live with as Pentaxians.

Very recently, PrioLite announced Pentax support for their HSS strobes. This solution obviates the need for workarounds as it simulates the presence of an HSS-capable flash. One can hope that similar triggers for less expensive lighting solutions will be offered by other companies in the future.

Thanks, Class A. I think I understand better now.

But I have a confession to make that may help clear up my question a bit. I am a Pentaxian, but in this case I am asking for use on my Oly E-M5II. On that camera there doesn't seem to be anything stopping the hotshoe or pc port from firing at any shutter speed (though a true digital TTL modern m43 flash does limit the shutter).

So my wish is to use the V6 on camera with no other flash besides the RF60 that I'm triggering at high sync speed (presumably HSS mode on flash, not 1/1 even if it may somehow work). As such I want to use rf only, not optical. It sounds like it will work then, which is great. I'll be ordering soon. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Thanks again for your help and excellent review.

[Class A]

So my wish is to use the V6 on camera with no other flash besides the RF60 that I'm triggering at high sync speed (presumably HSS mode on flash, not 1/1 even if it may somehow work).

This should work up to a certain shutter speed.

From that certain shutter speed (typically well above the sync-speed) onwards, you'll see a black bar creeping into the frame. This bar can only be avoided at the highest shutter speeds if you get a pre-sync trigger signal from somewhere. At least, I'm assuming that the E-M5II won't provide such a pre-sync signal at the hot-shoe.

To make sure that your intended setup will work you could try to enquire at the Cactus community forum. Other Olympus users may be able to respond to your question, but most likely a Cactus employee will attend to your questions after a while.

[QuixoticTonic]

This should work up to a certain shutter speed.

From that certain shutter speed (typically well above the sync-speed) onwards, you'll see a black bar creeping into the frame. This bar can only be avoided at the highest shutter speeds if you get a pre-sync trigger signal from somewhere. At least, I'm assuming that the E-M5II won't provide such a pre-sync signal at the hot-shoe.

You've been great and I hesitate to continue taking this a bit off topic, so feel free to ignore this and I'll head over to the cactus forum... BUT, for the sake of conversation I'm curious why you think I'd need any pre-sync signal at all.

The way I read it is that on many systems the preflash is a byproduct of getting the camera to fire above a certain shutter speed... HSS being a *-TTL mode so it has to have a preflash.

Then since there's a preflash the shutter release is slightly delayed so you can't just RF trigger the RF60 right away (to burst it's HSS light).

So you have to use the optical sensor to detect and ignore the preflash and wait around some number of milliseconds, then the RF60 will burst it's HSS light.


But going back to the beginning... if there is a camera that will fire it's hotshoe at any shutter speed (despite the risk of black bar with a non HSS burst), then there won't be any preflash byproduct of putting the camera in HSS mode, therefore there's no need to wait or sync up with a shutter that's waiting for the *-TTL process to finish.

In my imagination it all just behaves exactly like any other 'regular' shutter speed, except the RF60 gets put into HSS mode to produce the extended burst of light needed for the curtains to fully pass, thus avoiding the black bar creeping into frame as shutter speed goes up.

Clear as mud? I think I've probably just convinced myself it will work out of wishful thinking. On the other hand, I can't necessarily find anything wrong with my logic either, so long as a camera will fire the hotshoe at any shutter speed without creating any TTL preflash delays, etc.

[Class A]

You've been great and I hesitate to continue taking this a bit off topic, so feel free to ignore this and I'll head over to the cactus forum...

Not a problem, but if you think the discussion will go on for much longer, perhaps it would be best to create a new thread for it and link to it from here.

BUT, for the sake of conversation I'm curious why you think I'd need any pre-sync signal at all.

The need for a pre-sync signal arises from the way a focal plane shutter works.

Shutter speeds faster than the sync-speed (1/180s for Pentax APS-C DSLRs) are realised by closing the second shutter curtain, before the first curtain has completely opened. The faster the shutter speed, the earlier the second shutter curtain will start travelling (to achieve a smaller slit travelling over the sensor).

From a certain shutter speed onwards, the second curtain will have already closed a bit before the flash started to illuminate the scene. This is when you can see a black bar at the bottom of the image. That's when the ignition of the flash will have to be moved forward, i.e., happen earlier.

... if there is a camera that will fire it's hotshoe at any shutter speed (despite the risk of black bar with a non HSS burst), then there won't be any preflash byproduct of putting the camera in HSS mode, therefore there's no need to wait or sync up with a shutter that's waiting for the *-TTL process to finish.

As you said, pre-flash and HSS are different matters, so it is not the case that pre-sync is required to deal with the pre-flash. Pre-syncing is only needed to initiate ignition of the main flash earlier, independently of whether or not there has been a pref-flash (the latter only being required for automatic exposure purposes).