[Class A]

The top is double the surface area of a flash head.

Doubling way too small is still way too small.

Check out this one if you're looking for hidden walls, reflector held by an assistant or whatever else you imagine

Oh, it changes the ambient exposure and even makes the hair look like its behind the shoulder.

There is already ambient light for even lighting and just a bit of fill from the front to avoid raccoon eyes and generate catch lights is needed. Even bare flash can do that.

It's an advert...

Anyhow, no point in dragging this out. I trust the OP is able to make to their own decisions based on all the input.

[clackers]

Doubling way too small is still way too small.

Double would be a whole stop!


I'm afraid you're doing your usual 'I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to keep talking anyway' act, Class A. McGregni must be rolling his eyes.


I took the top pic with bare flash, the lower two with the Fong's merchandise pointed at the subjects, tungsten cap in place.


There is *no* bounce involved, contrary to how you declared it must be used.


You would best actually pay attention to what things do before offering opinions about them, although I think with you that if Richard Butler at DPR said he owned a RogueBender, you'd buy ten of them, sight unseen! ;-)

[Class A]

I'm afraid you're doing your usual 'I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to keep talking anyway' act, Class A.

The always popular ad hominem approach: If you don't have a technical argument, just attack the person.

As in other discussions where you responded to my posts in a denigrating manner, I have physics on my side: You cannot create soft light with a small light source only. Period. Read a good book like "Light Science and Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting" like I did and perhaps you'll understand.

A Fong light modifier is still small for portraits (unless you are taking portraits of insects).

In this demonstration of the "Wing Light" modifier, you can see how harsh the shadows produced by the Fong LightSphere are.

Why do you think people use large umbrellas and softboxes instead of just a simple Fong thingy? I guess, according to you, these people don't know what they are doing either. Probably, according to you, Neil van Niekerk -- a professional photographer who wrote books on lighting -- does not know what he is doing either, as he recommends to "throw the tupperware away".

There is *no* bounce involved, contrary to how you declared it must be used.

In the last two images, the ambient light dominates. While I cannot be 100% certain that the sidelight coming from camera right in the last image is natural light, it sure looks like sunlight and is a 100% not from an on-camera Fong thingy. In both last two images, the flash just adds some subtle fill and catch lights. Again, whether you do that with a Fong thingy or bare flash makes little difference.

You would best actually pay attention to what things do before offering opinions about them, although I think with you that if Richard Butler at DPR said he owned a RogueBender, you'd buy ten of them, sight unseen! ;-)

I have absolutely no idea what made you say this, but guess what: Your thinking is wrong.

Anyhow, I don't particular enjoy talking to people who attack me on a personal level. I only responded for the benefit of others. I'm out of here now.

[BrianR]

It's an advert...

You're not suggesting they specifically went with a horrid flash/ambient ratio for the bare flash picture just to try to sell their product?

I took the top pic with bare flash, the lower two with the Fong's merchandise pointed at the subjects, tungsten cap in place.

The third still has the hard edged shadows of a bare direct flash (below the chin), the lighting ratio is closer between the flash and ambient though. That makes the biggest difference between the first and third for me, just like in the video.

Second photo, I see no sign of flash in the lighting or the catchlights? It looks like open shade to me? Exif seems to back up that the flash didn't fire.

Have any examples in the exact same positions with and without the diffuser outdoors, but also using the same lighting ratios?

edit- this is also way veering off topic as the OP's event is indoors...so sorry to the OP!

[MikeD]

Ok , Class A and Clackers- it's a given that in general the bigger the soft box the softer the light. So in a studio setup big soft boxes are the way to go, accent lights not withstanding. Or flashes with umbrellas but most top pros would go with the soft boxes over umbrellas.
BUT I think what we are really talking about in "this" thread is what would be best for using at an event where a studio setup is not an option, such as at a wedding reception or something similar. Also bounce is not an option when outside like in Clackers examples. So especially when used as fill light a Sto Fen or Light Sphere can do a very nice job.

Although it is getting lost in all the fireworks I think (I'm not sure anymore ) What the original poster wanted to know would a diffuser help him out and was the Light Sphere worth the extra money. Personally I think either one would get the job done but the light sphere being more adaptable and maybe softer, but costing a lot more $.
Both you guys have a lot to offer so if you could put your personal differences aside and get your undies un-bunched you might be able to give this guy a some really good answers. Also I am going to try the black foamy thing inside, it would not work outside without a helper with a reflector.

Love Mikey

[jeffw]

On their own, the Fong and Stofen do not create soft and even light.

They need surrounding surfaces to work. So they are for bouncing, but not for controlled bouncing, but for for bouncing indiscriminately using everything nearby.

This lighting approach can be useful (e.g., for fill light) but it is often better to use controlled bounce to create images with depth.

Just want to cut down on hard shadows . I understand that both types have to be used indoors. These will not be dramatic potraits more like an event photo but I would like to get a somewhat "knowledgeable" result. I will be using a manual flash so I can control the output. Santa is bringing a Yongnou 560 IV and 603II triggers !

---------- Post added 12-03-15 at 03:53 PM ----------

Ok , Class A and Clackers- it's a given that in general the bigger the soft box the softer the light. So in a studio setup big soft boxes are the way to go, accent lights not withstanding. Or flashes with umbrellas but most top pros would go with the soft boxes over umbrellas.
BUT I think what we are really talking about in "this" thread is what would be best for using at an event where a studio setup is not an option, such as at a wedding reception or something similar. Also bounce is not an option when outside like in Clackers examples. So especially when used as fill light a Sto Fen or Light Sphere can do a very nice job.



Although it is getting lost in all the fireworks I think (I'm not sure anymore ) What the original poster wanted to know would a diffuser help him out and was the Light Sphere worth the extra money. Personally I think either one would get the job done but the light sphere being more adaptable and maybe softer, but costing a lot more $.
Both you guys have a lot to offer so if you could put your personal differences aside and get your undies un-bunched you might be able to give this guy a some really good answers. Also I am going to try the black foamy thing inside, it would not work outside without a helper with a reflector.

Love Mikey

Thank you Mike ! That was my original question and you have described my situation perfectly.

[Tanzer]

The board room is at an Airport with one wall all glass. I am worried about shadows and all of the lighting is LED inside of the room. I can get some test shots to check out results .

Okay, in this case, make sure you check out the room at the same time of day as the event will be, so you can judge where the sunlight/skylight/shadows will be.

Don't want to throw any fuel on the other discussion, but my personal experience is that everyone should have both an on-flash diffuser as well as a black foamie thing, to give you all the options. A lot depends on the size of the room and what walls are available as a reflector, and we don't always have control over that.

Good luck!

[dansamy]

And a black foam thing takes up next to zero room & adds virtually nil to your pack weight. There's no reason NOT to bring one.

[noelpolar]

I have a Gary Fong light sphere thingy. If I lost it I would buy another. To my way of thinking, there are times when you are limited with what you can do and it helps and is convienient. I also use something to block direct flash light when bouncing if that suites the situation as opposed to using the light sphere.

Mostly I use the light sphere for fill flash outdoors.... when I cant reflect natural light to fill......

Some people will own 8 50mm lenses and think a light sphere is expensive..... go figure!

[Tanzer]

These will not be dramatic potraits more like an event photo but I would like to get a somewhat "knowledgeable" result. I will be using a manual flash so I can control the output.

Just caught your comment about shooting manual. As you know, the amount of light falls off dramatically with variations in distance. As a practical matter, the longer you can make the distance between the flash and your subject, the less your aperture/flash power will need to be tweaked.

What I am getting at, is that if you bounce off the ceiling, then you can set your power output, and then it almost doesn't matter how far away your subject is, within a range at least. Whereas, if you are shooting directly (even through a diffuser), moving a couple feet closer or farther away can really screw up your exposure, even if you are just trying to fill.

The higher the ceiling, the more power you will need, but the less your results will vary with horizontal distance to subject.

Santa is bringing a Yongnou 560 IV and 603II triggers !

Off camera flash is probably unusual for this type of event, in that you probably won't be able to move the flash around a lot during the ceremony, without an assistant. But it can still help in the following way:

Working solo, maybe you can stake out a spot that won't cause anyone to trip over a light stand, or maybe you can clip it to existing furniture. See if you can set it up in one spot that will compliment the lighting on each officer as they are being sworn in, as well as when the key speakers give their speeches at the podium. By fixing the distance between the flash and where you anticipate the subject(s) will be, then you don't have to worry at all about where you are shooting from -- you can move anywhere in the room, and the lighting intensity on your subject will be consistent throughout!

You might have an honor guard which will parade through the hall at the opening and closing of the ceremony; not sure how the lighting setup will work for that, but think about it.

Not sure if the 603II triggers allow for remote power control of the 560IV -- hopefully they do, so you can fine tune as necessary, on the fly. I wanted to mention that the Cactus V6 triggers allow multiple flashes to be controlled independently, so you can turn multiple flash units on and off, or modulate their power, all from a single transmitter.

[clackers]

I only responded for the benefit of others.

If only that were true. One claim for example was that on-camera flash diffusers cannot be used without bouncing.

Clearly, that's bad advice.

I'm out of here now.

If you really are, I will do one more post, directed at - how did you put it - others ... and I'm out too.

[clackers]

Second photo, I see no sign of flash in the lighting or the catchlights? It looks like open shade to me? Exif seems to back up that the flash didn't fire.

Indeed, Brian, second's a mistake on my part, here's what it should have been (improvised event shooting, HSS because it was the sunniest of summer days), followed by a reminder of what I enjoy more (controlled circumstances, indoors, off camera softbox, etc).

But we can be equipped easily to do both methods. These modifiers can be very cheap compared to glass, as Noel has pointed out - Sto-fen rather than Lightsphere, $30 shoot-thru umbrella vs a softbox.

[BrianR]

The board room is at an Airport with one wall all glass. I am worried about shadows and all of the lighting is LED inside of the room. I can get some test shots to check out results .[COLOR="Silver"]

I would make sure to include a grey card or other neutral object in your test shots so you can figure out the colour temperature of the ambient. If you end up utilizing both flash and ambient, you'll want to gel the flash to a compatible colour.

Indeed, Brian, second's a mistake on my part, here's what it should have been (improvised event shooting, HSS because it was the sunniest of summer days), followed by a reminder of what I enjoy more (controlled circumstances, indoors, off camera softbox, etc).

I may be mistaken, but the contribution of the flash looks pretty darn weak and the photo looks to have had an edit or two on it:P. The fong-spheres are just too small to make much of a difference to the soft/hard characteristic of the light at comfortable people shooting ranges outdoors. Yes it will be a bigger source, but frankly not big enough that the edges of the shadows will be noticeably softer unless you're all up in someones grill. And yes, I've used one that even for the magical price of 'free' I didn't keep. I'm not a big event/people photographer type though, so maybe I could have come to appreciate it in more cramped settings.

As I see it, the parts that work in your examples (and the Fong-adverts when they did things right in the tupperwares favour) are (I'm carrying on here because I think this may be a useful discussion for the OP):

1- Ambient and flash working well together. If you overpower the ambient, all the shadows from the flash will be very deep. If this is combined with hard-edged and unnaturally positioned shadows of a direct on-camera flash, the shadows can get obnoxious fast. Either flash or ambient can work as key with the other lifting up the shadows, who does what depends on the situation but they should be friends.

2- Well controlled white balance. The flash and the ambient aren't at odds colour wise, and care was taken that the WB was properly set for the key light.


Handling these two will go a long way to avoid the 'deer in headlights flashed look', especially when you have no or little control over:


3- The direction of the flash. Light originating from the viewers position is really not natural, unless you're a firefly. Which, if you're reading this, you're not. The first link for the "Black Foamy Thing" shows how bouncing to the side can yield excellent and natural looking results. Off camera lights can of course be grand (as your second example shows), but not always feasible at event type things (as I'm sure most know).

4- The size of the light source. Big source means softer edged shadows, which are generally less objectionable, even if they are very deep. A smooth transition into a deep pool of black doesn't jump out nearly as much as a sharp transition to black. There's little you can do here with an on camera flash if you have nothing to bounce off of and you aren't willing to add a huge softbox to your flash, or aren't willing to shoot from a few inches away (an on camera softbox ~6" across can work wonders for macro)


As I see it, "messing up" all of the above is the hallmark of a poorly used, direct on-camera flash.

[jeffw]

Okay, in this case, make sure you check out the room at the same time of day as the event will be, so you can judge where the sunlight/skylight/shadows will be.

Don't want to throw any fuel on the other discussion, but my personal experience is that everyone should have both an on-flash diffuser as well as a black foamie thing, to give you all the options. A lot depends on the size of the room and what walls are available as a reflector, and we don't always have control over that.

Good luck!

Thanks. I can get in and take some test shots before the event. The plan is to take the photos before the event and a few candids during the ceremony. I want to be as unobtrusive as possible so on camera flash was my thinking.
The reason I plan on using manual is because I have an old Sunpack 611 handle flash I can use off camera with radio triggers. It is fully manual or I can use the auto sensor off camera , trigger voltage is an issue. I also reconditioned an old Quantum battery pack with a new set of SLA batteries for $30 so I have portable power and I am hopefull the insert for my 280t will work in the 560 IV.
So the plan is invest 30 in battery 100 in triggers and flash and have a complete portable system all manual with portable power. Not bad for repurposing almost 30 year old equipment !

Thanks for the advice , I do plan on bounceing off the ceiling with a diffuser.

Didn't mean to start a feud gentlemen , your knowledge is greatly appreciated .

[MikeD]

Just want to cut down on hard shadows . I understand that both types have to be used indoors. These will not be dramatic potraits more like an event photo but I would like to get a somewhat "knowledgeable" result. I will be using a manual flash so I can control the output. Santa is bringing a Yongnou 560 IV and 603II triggers !

---------- Post added 12-03-15 at 03:53 PM ----------



Thank you Mike ! That was my original question and you have described my situation perfectly.

Both types can be used indoors or out, only the Black Foamie thingy has to be used indoors since it totally depends on bounce, all others can be used outdoors and indoors. There is a very nice comparo on youtube with 3 or 4 different diffusers it should be very helpful. If you decide to go with Sto Fen it should in most cases be tilted at a 45 degree angle to the subject or or bounced or it will be too directional the caveat to this is if you are just using a little blip for fill.