[mcgregni]

I hope everyone had an enjoyable Christmas, whatever you were doing and however it is 'celebrated'!

I've carried out some HSS Sympathy mode tests with my equipment today, and here are the results (for Optical Slave 1 Mode only so far) .....


CACTUS RF60 - HSS Sympathy Mode with Optical Slave Mode 1 - Pentax K7 with Pentax AF-540FGZ

This uses the OS1 mode on the RF60, which triggers on the P-TTL pre-flash. I used the Pentax trigger flash in 'Wireless Controller' mode, which sends out the metering and triggering signals but does not emit any illumination for the image. This set-up, with the RF60 plus a second Pentax slave flash is my most expected way I'll be using this, perhaps in order to have two angles of illumination or just to boost the power using both flashes side by side. The control flash from the Pentax on-camera unit made no impact on the image at all, it remained completely pitch black until the RF60 took effect ... this was despite the control flash head being aimed towards the image frame area.


1) Camera Settings

Manual Exposure Mode, ISO 200-800, F5.6 - F11 (the lens was the DA18-55 AL WR)


2) RF60 Settings

Zoom set to illuminate complete frame (around 50mm), flash power as needed
HSS Sympathy Mode activated, OS1 mode (auto activates), plus delays set via 2nd menu item

Entering HS mode with the K7 and Pentax flash at 1/250sec, I was unable to get any flash into the frame until 95ms .... this was a 2/3rd lit frame (bottom 1/3 dark).

In the range of 96ms-105ms I was able to completely illuminate the frame, including at 1/8000th sec (as shutter speed should not influence this mode of working as I understand from ClassA). At 106ms I started to get dark areas again.

I tested the whole range of shutter speeds and apertures up to f11 (can't imagine ever using F11 for HSS work).

So I have settled on a middle figure of 100ms for OS1 mode working for my K7.

---------- Post added 26-12-15 at 13:26 ----------

One quick point to note. .... There's one setting that the RF60 does not seem to retain after a switch off-on re-cycle, and that is HSS Sympathy mode. The delay is remembered, but not the HS mode for some reason ....

[Class A]

I've carried out some HSS Sympathy mode tests with my equipment today, and here are the results (for Optical Slave 1 Mode only so far)

Thanks for sharing your numbers.

I think they might be slightly different for each camera model.

So far, I've only used delays in combination with the V6 but I'm hoping I can contribute my own (K-5 II specific) figures that only involve the RF60 soon.

Did you try using S2 (main flash synchronisation) as well?
It would obviate the need to deal with any kind of delay and it would be interesting to see up to which shutter speed it works on the K-7.

I tested the whole range of shutter speeds and apertures up to f11 (can't imagine ever using F11 for HSS work).

So it seems that you also were able to find one delay setting that works for all apertures you are going to be using, correct?

That does make things easier, doesn't it?

There's one setting that the RF60 does not seem to retain after a switch off-on re-cycle, and that is HSS Sympathy mode.

That's right.

I have reported that to Cactus a while ago and they responded they would fix it in a future firmware update.

[bobbotron]

I tried with the main flash triggering, could get it to work with my experiments. Great write up mcgregni!

[mcgregni]

The memory of HSS mode thing is only a minor matter. It's just a case of getting to know the equipment. It's confusing at first and led me to think my delays weren't working, because when you re-set HSS mode it automatically resets to S1 optical as well. I was trying to test S2 mode and didn't realise that it had switched back to S1. There's no indication of the specific optical mode set, only the OS indication. HSS is helpfully displayed though which I is a reminder.

I have now tested also in S2 mode, main flash triggering, which took some time because I understood there should be no delay this way. But I've found that I had to use a delay in the range of 12-18ms. With this I got full illumination right to 1/8000. I forget to check different apertures, just stayed at f5.6. Most of my HSS work will be at wider apertures anyway.


So these results are different to yours Class A? Did you say you were getting to 1/2000 with no delay?

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Last edited by mcgregni; 12-26-2015 at 10:24 AM.

[Class A]

The memory of HSS mode thing is only a minor matter. It's just a case of getting to know the equipment.

Well, I think equipment should be consistent about what is retained during a power cycle.

One could argue that resetting from HSS mode is what the user wants, but then the OS1 (optical triggering) should not be retained either in this instance. I think it is a minor issue but I think it should be fixed.

I'd also prefer if the RF60 did not automatically engage OS1 when one activates HSS. First, this can override an OS2 setting (main flash triggering) one may have already chosen and, second, it can interfere with using the V6 as an optical trigger. In the latter case only the V6's radio signal should trigger the RF60 and additional optical triggering should be avoided.

I have now tested also in S2 mode, main flash triggering, which took some time because I understood there should be no delay this way. But I've found that I had to use a delay in the range of 12-18ms.

Hmmh, that does not make sense to me. At 1/8000s (or any shutter speed above 1/180s) it still takes 1/180s (~ 5.5ms) to expose all of the frame. In other words, in ~5.5ms the exposure is done. Let's assume the main flash would normally occur right at the beginning of the frame exposure (when the second curtain is just about to move) and you delay it for 12-18ms then the flash will fire long after the whole frame has been exposed through the shutter slit.

A delay of 0-1ms is the most one should get away with and I confirmed that with both my V6 (in optical triggering mode) and RF60 (OS2).

Did you say you were getting to 1/2000 with no delay?

Yes, and in my latest test, the OS2 method worked up to 1/8000s just fine. :0
Apparently there is no need for OS1 + setting a delay at all?

The differences to when I wrote the reviews are:

1. I was testing a beta firmware version. I'm now using the latest firmwares for the RF60 (V124) and V6 (V1.1.019).
2. I was using my K100D, instead of the K-5 II, and this is the main reason for the discrepancy, as the K100D still benefits from a pre-sync signal (see below).

[Class A]

Equipment

• K-5 II
• Sigma 10-20/3.5.
• Metz 58 AF-2. This flash is HSS-capable, but cannot be used as an HSS master. I do not think that the latter limitation influences the numbers I found, though.

Settings used

• f/8

RF60 (in HSS mode)
OS2 + 0ms delay: All shutter speeds work, including 1/8000s.
OS1 -> requires 73ms delay.

V6 (used as an optical trigger to fire off-camera an RF60 in HSS mode)
S2 + 0ms delay: All shutter speeds work, including 1/8000s.
S1 -> requires 72ms delay.

So to my surprise, the *S1 modes (that get an advance sync-signal through the pre-flash) aren't really needed when using the K-5 II.
There is no "up to 1/2000s" shutter speed limitation, that I previously reported. As a matter of fact that limitation only appears to apply to the K100D (which I used for the RF60 + V6 reviews).

[Class A]

Equipment

• K100D
• Sigma 10-20/3.5.
• Metz 58 AF-2. This flash is HSS-capable, but cannot be used as an HSS master. I do not think that the latter limitation influences the numbers I found, though.

Settings used

• f/8

V6 (used as an optical trigger to fire off-camera an RF60 in HSS mode)
S2 + 0ms delay: All shutter speeds up to ~1/750s work. Faster shutter speeds show an increasing amount of a "black bar" (lack of flash illumination) at the bottom of the frame.
S1 -> requires 96ms delay (range of 93--99ms works). With this, even 1/4000s (fastest shutter speed of the K100D) works.

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Last edited by Class A; 12-27-2015 at 12:24 AM.

[mcgregni]

It appears that we are actually using different triggering techniques because of that bug with the Metz58 .....

I understand ClassA that you must be operating the Metz on-camera in normal P-TTL HSS mode .... ? I've been operating my on-camera Pentax flash in Wireless (Controller) HS mode. This does not emit any illumination for the image, but it does send out metering, mode and power instructions to any Wireless Slaves (not the RF60 of course!). Whereas your Metz presumably is not sending out the wireless related information?

(EDIT: Sorry, I realised that the S2 OS slave mode triggers on the Main flash .... but with the Pentax Wireless HS mode I believe there are actually 2 pre-flashes, 1 for sending out the mode information and another for the metering. I'm wondering if the RF60 in fact fires on this 2nd pre-flash rather than the main flash .... therefore necessitating the delay I found? ..... wondering how the RF60 works out when to fire? Does it just skip one flash then fire on a 2nd flash? This could explain things)

Could this explain the differences and the delay I require? I rejected using Master mode (ie allowing the on-camera flash to contribute lighting to the scene) as it was too difficult to accurately assess the output of the RF60 in isolation. It's also a battery drain on the triggering flash because by pointing the head away from the image scene you are forcing it to meter and fire at full power each time (as the camera meter sees a very dark image for the metering pre-flash because the RF60 hasn't fired at that point). Pointing the flash head towards the scene also made it difficult to judge what flash was illuminating the scene. ....I believed it was possible for the spill-over from the trigger flash to fill the frame, even dimly, and so wreck any chance of seeing the RF60's effect.

So Controller mode seemed to be the way to go .... That way, as I reported, they're was absolutely no illumination recorded from the on-camera trigger. But could that wireless mode of working add an additional delay? As I said, for OS2 triggering on the RF60 I needed 12-18ms.

[Class A]

It appears that we are actually using different triggering techniques because of that bug with the Metz58 ...

I don't think the Metz 58 AF-2 has a bug. It just doesn't have an HSS Master capability.

Also, triggering on the main flash should (ideally) remove any differences that exist in pre-flashing behaviour.

I understand ClassA that you must be operating the Metz on-camera in normal P-TTL HSS mode .... ?

It is in P-TTL HSS mode and I definitely did not have any "spill over" problems from the 58 AF-2. I fired it backwards to avoid contaminating the scene (even in "controller" mode, there is an actual trigger flash (not just from the 58 AF-2; from any P-TTL flash) which can have a visible effect with the respective exposure settings), but even then it was much fainter than the RF60 firing at 1/2 power (in HSS mode).

I've been operating my on-camera Pentax flash in Wireless (Controller) HS mode.

It is a shame that the on-board flash cannot do that.
That makes it 100% (not just 90%) useless, AFAIC.
To the best of my knowledge only the *ist-D supported HSS control with the on-board flash.

Whereas your Metz presumably is not sending out the wireless related information?

Not sure what exactly it sends out at what shutter speeds.

I'm wondering if the RF60 in fact fires on this 2nd pre-flash rather than the main flash .... therefore necessitating the delay I found?

Possible.

The RF60 tries to identify the main flash based on pauses between flashes. This behaviour is designed to ignore any number of pre-flashes, as long as they follow each other closely.

If there is a longish pause between a couple of pre-/communication- flashes in the series before the main flash, then the RF60 may erroneously assume the following flash to be the main flash.

As I said, for OS2 triggering on the RF60 I needed 12-18ms.

Still seems odd to me but your hypothesis is a possible explanation.

[mcgregni]

My interpretation of what is reported on the 'p-ttl matt.dm' website is that both Metz58 models have a firmware bug that has never been fixed .... This apparently prevents them from operating as on-camera p-ttl wireless triggers (ie exactly what you have been trying to do) . This is reported as 'unable to act as wireless Master', but this is a terminology simplification I suspect ... Surely it means they cannot act as both master AND controllers? (the difference is just between whether they emit a main flash or not after the pre-flashes).

Assuming this is still correct, then is it possible the bug means that even though set to ' controller' mode in fact the required extra pre flash for wireless is not being sent from the Metz? So you're getting a triggering on the main flash (no delay needed), but because my Pentax controller flash IS sending out the extra pre-flash then the RF60 is firing on that before the main flash ... Hence my 12-18ms delay .... ?


I'm not familiar with the Metz but presumably, like the Pentax models, there's a clearly indicated difference between 'normal' p-ttl HSS and wireless HSS mode? Wireless would have the 'master' vs 'control' sub-setting and should be indicated also. But according to that p-ttl resource the wireless trigger modes do not function on the 58, only slave mode ....

---------- Post added 29-12-15 at 08:31 ----------

It does seem to me apparent now that a listing of RF60 delay settings for different camera models needs to include specific lists for the different triggering techniques ...ie, normal HSS, and wireless HSS (control and master modes) ... And could these even have differing timings beaten pre-flashes from different p-ttl flashes .... ?


Finally here, as I said in the previous post, I had the AF-540fgzII (in wireless controller mode) pointed directly into the image scene, and on the test shots where the delay was wrong and the RF60 did not fire, I saw absolutely no lighting from the controller at all. .... Total pitch black (ISO 400, F5.6, about 1 meter distance. )

[photokaybrown]

I'm still in the 'learning' phase of flash right now. I have 2 V6s and an RF60, and was able to get the V6s to work with my cheapy Rokinon flash and my oldy Sunpak 544 (from the film days), but need to get a Metz or Pentax with HSS capability in order to do HSS photography. I've tried the 'workaround' by Class A, on another post in this forum, but I failed miserably.

[Class A]

My interpretation of what is reported on the 'p-ttl matt.dm' website is that both Metz58 models have a firmware bug that has never been fixed ...

This website has not been updated in years.

For the 58 AF-2 the information on the "latest" firmware is: "3.0 (Jul. 27, 2012)".

In reality, the latest firmware for Pentax is 4.1 (26.06.2013).

I'm unaware of any bugs in the 4.1 firmware.

When one activates the master/controller option, the ability to use HSS disappears. That's all and is just a lack of functionality, not a bug.

N.B., in my experiments the Metz apparently was not in "controller" mode, because otherwise I would not have been able to shoot at 1/1000s and faster.

This apparently prevents them from operating as on-camera p-ttl wireless triggers (ie exactly what you have been trying to do) .

It works fine as an on-camera P-TTL wireless trigger, it just cannot do HSS at the same time. Not a loss for me (and many others, I suspect) because not too many will fire another P-TTL HSS flash optically, and if they intend the latter, they can just reverse the flash roles (unless they have two 58 AF-2).

Surely it means they cannot act as both master AND controllers?

You can select "master" or "controller" (but not retain HSS).

Assuming this is still correct, then is it possible the bug means that even though set to ' controller' mode in fact the required extra pre flash for wireless is not being sent from the Metz?

Again, I don't think there is a bug in 4.1 and in any event I did not use "controller" mode as I needed to work with HSS enabled.

I'm not familiar with the Metz but presumably, like the Pentax models, there's a clearly indicated difference between 'normal' p-ttl HSS and wireless HSS mode?

The 58 AF-2 supports the difference between "normal" and "master/controller". "Wireless HSS mode" is not available on the 58 AF-2.

Wireless would have the 'master' vs 'control' sub-setting and should be indicated also.

Yes, the sub-setting exists (but HSS is not available at the same time).

It does seem to me apparent now that a listing of RF60 delay settings for different camera models needs to include specific lists for the different triggering techniques ...ie, normal HSS, and wireless HSS (control and master modes)

In general, I agree.

Normally, I don't think there are too many different cases, though. The 58 AF-2 works as expected (no delay necessary for main flash triggering) and the delay you need may be caused by something specific to the 540 FGZ II. Perhaps it is necessary for other flash models as well, or for all P-TTL flashes used as an HSS master (as opposed to standard HSS)?

And could these even have differing timings beaten pre-flashes from different p-ttl flashes .... ?

It seems unlikely to me that different flash models would have an impact on the timing, as the latter appears to be determined by the camera.

Different camera models, on the other hand, definitely cause different P-TTL timings.

Finally here, as I said in the previous post, I had the AF-540fgzII (in wireless controller mode) pointed directly into the image scene, and on the test shots where the delay was wrong and the RF60 did not fire, I saw absolutely no lighting from the controller at all.

You probably would see some contribution if you changed exposure settings.

I can clearly see a contribution from the on-board flash in controller mode. It is faint, but it is there.

If you take a picture of your camera (and flash) in the mirror, you should be able to see the control flash (unless the FGZ II models do something different to any other flash model before). Might be interesting for you to check whether you can see an on-board controller flash vs an on-camera 540 FGZ (II) controller flash.

[Class A]

I've tried the 'workaround' by Class A, on another post in this forum, but I failed miserably.

I understand you tried my "HSS with the V6 (without dedicated equipment)" workaround.

I answered in the thread in which you posted your original question.

Long story short: For my low-budget HSS trick, you need a shutter release cable that connects a V6 (3.5mm stereo) with the remote shutter release port of the camera (2.5mm stereo).

[photokaybrown]

I understand you tried my "HSS with the V6 (without dedicated equipment)" workaround.

I answered in the thread in which you posted your original question.

Long story short: For my low-budget HSS trick, you need a shutter release cable that connects a V6 (3.5mm stereo) with the remote shutter release port of the camera (2.5mm stereo).

That's what I'm missing. A cable that connects a V6 with the remote shutter release port of the camera. I have shutter release for my camera that I used as an interval timer, but works with single shots as well. But the 3.5 mm stereo plug outlet is too large for any cables I have.

Thank you for responding, and please be patient with me. I'm in the throes of frustration right now.

[mcgregni]

Jumping back to ClassA's last post, thanks, that clarifies the matter about the Metz58 model .... It does P-TTL wireless triggering, master and control, but not in HSS sync mode at the same time. This option is available with the Pentax flashes, so I was able to carry out further tests and it seems that I can confirm my previous theory regarding differences in pre-flash triggering between normal HSS and wireless HSS modes.

As I said earlier, with the Pentax AF-540FGZII in wireless 'control' mode (with HS sync activated) I needed delays on the RF60 of 12-15ms. Really, this mode of triggering was my natural intuitive choice (I never thought to fire the Pentax in normal non-wireless mode), because I plan on using the RF60 slave alongside my other Pentax540 P-TTL slave. So the trigger has to be in wireless HS mode to control the Pentax slave and send out the mode and power information.

Now, when I switched my on-camera trigger AF-540 out of wireless mode, into normal P-TTL HS mode (ie it functions as a single on-camera flash and does not send out any additional wireless information) then I lost the RF60 exposure. I reset the delay to 0, and there it was back again!

So ..... Like Class A's set-up with the Metz, 0 delay ...... With wireless control (and master) HS modes, because of the additional preflash this uses, the RF60 fires on the 2nd pre-flash, and so needs the 12-18ms delay to sync to the exposure.