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08-03-2016, 04:58 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Lets be careful that we are comparing like for like. ...I don't recall the OP saying he was going to buy multiple flashes to create a radio remote manual flash system ...

I use manual as well of course, when it suits and I'm happy to agree that is often the case with multiple slave flashes and more complex set ups.... No dispute there. But is that what the OP was intending?
You were the one talking about communication issues and triggering...

Besides, off-camera capabilities and multiple flash use are two things to take into consideration when buying into a flash system... chances are that in the future you'll want to expand on that single light source when you have got to know a little bit better how the whole thing works... shaping a good light is seldom done with a single light source...

08-03-2016, 05:03 AM   #17
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I'll give the same answer to this question that I have been giving here for years.

If you want a flash to use on camera, and can afford it, buy a good PTTL flash like a Pentax or Metz. The OP said his price range is below that.

I have four Yongnuo flashes, great bang for your buck, but NOT for a first flash. I have never once used a Yongnuo on camera. If you are at an event, you don't want to HAVE to keep adjusting a manual flash.

Before the days of TTL flashes there were flashes that had an auto thyrister mode on the flash themselves. Just set the ISO and aperture on the flash, and it would do a wonderful job of putting out the right amount of flash. The only issue with this is that you have to get them used. The Nikon SB-28 is a great model, and will cost about $60-80 for a good one. I still have one now because of how versatile it is. Small, powerful, nice LCD display, great manual settings... If you want to spend even less than that, find a Sunpak flash. Many models work well, the 422, 433, and the 383 Super is considered the best model. These Sunpak flashes can be bought easily for $20-40. Just make sure you find one that is in excellent condition.

If you prefer to struggle with manual flash, that's fine, but paying a small amount for an Auto flash that just works is a better option for a first flash IMO.
08-03-2016, 05:48 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Hey, can we get some accuracy around here!? The Guide's 90 pages, thank you very much ...
So sorry!

See, I'm clearly not smart enough to deal with P-TTL.


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
hmmm, now I wonder how many negative points about manual flash, the systems, triggers, compatibilities, communication problems, reliability, quality, instructions comprehension, HSS/2nd curtain sync problems etc etc could we construct based on members questions here over the years .... ?
I'm sure we can "construct" many. But none of those things are intrinsically tied to manual flash photography.

Sure, you can pick a product with questionable quality and a Chinglish manual, but then you are criticising that product not the manual approach to flash photography.

One does not need any triggers in principle, but of course I'd recommend some with remote power control. I know there are triggers with 100% reliability and very good manuals. So I don't see how any of the things you said that could be "constructed" need to be endured by every manual flash photographer. The P-TTL problems I mentioned, however, are intrinsically part and parcel of P-TTL and I could link to a real discussion for each of those bullets. Thinking about this reminds me that I haven't even mentioned the particular problems the K-5 and K-3 introduced to P-TTL...

Of course with a good guide like yours it is possible to circumnavigate many issues I listed, but still the stalagmites and stalactites I mentioned are part of P-TTL as opposed to issues related to a certain product from a certain brand.


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
And Class A ... How often do you use a single manual flash on your hotshoe, bouncing for light quality, as you dynamically work an event or fluid portraits....
Why do you ask?

I can do fluid portraits with manual power control, no problem. And as I said many times: I prefer to do it with manual control for consistency reasons.

I also once did an event (evening gala) with a manual flash. I was paid for it and I didn't even have remote power control back then. The client was so happy with the shots, they paid me more than originally agreed. No joke.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
You mention the professionals ... I've got one book in front of me, 'On-Camera Flash' by Neil van Niekerk . It's all about a single hot-shoe flash approach, for weddings, events, outdoor portraits when things are moving a bit. This is what I read that the OP was looking at doing from his original post.
Sure, you can find examples for professionals that use TTL. I didn't say all professionals use manual power control.

BTW, the OP said he was targeting portraits and that events (in a club) may become an application further down the road. I cannot distil a particular need for automatic exposure from that, on the contrary.
08-03-2016, 06:44 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
You were the one talking about communication issues and triggering... ...
I was just attempting to even things out a bit .... that's my purpose in life

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Sure, you can find examples for professionals that use TTL. I didn't say all professionals use manual power control.
BTW, the OP said he was targeting portraits and that events (in a club) may become an application further down the road. I cannot distil a particular need for automatic exposure from that, on the contrary.
A point by point comparison of the two approaches probably doesn't work well .... Those things you listed are 'intrinsic' to P-TTL, although I don't think that they should all be painted as issues or problems .... like anything that is fairly involved you have to 'work with it' . Same for manual, and whilst your soundbite about 'up and down, lesson over' (something like that) is catchy, that certainly doesn't reflect the sum total of complexity, learning and issues surrounding Manual flash.

This probably does come down to whether we can accept your last point above .... that on-camera, 'dynamic' fluid etc flash photography does not imply a need for automatic flash ..... like jake14mw just before, I believe that for most people, and certainly beginners, it does.

08-03-2016, 06:53 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
*snip*

I have four Yongnuo flashes, great bang for your buck, but NOT for a first flash. I have never once used a Yongnuo on camera. If you are at an event, you don't want to HAVE to keep adjusting a manual flash.

*snip*
If you're in a very dark environment and using flash (be it direct, bounced, white-carded, diffused etc.) as your main light source, then light variations are of secondary importance, nothing that can't be corrected in post, even easier if you use RAW.

If you're in a well-lit situation, and are using flash just to open up some shadows, then flash power in negligible in relation to ambient light, and the bulk of the exposure changes are done with shutter speed (if under max-sync speed) and aperture. With the former you control ambient light, with the latter both light sources. Flash would remain roughly where you put it, save for minor adjustments

Only tricky situation I can foresee is when the light contribution from ambient and flash is very similar, but I can't see why it should be more time consuming to change flash power a stop than shutter speed... actually in one case you just have to push one button once, in another rotate a wheel two or three times (depending on if you're using half stops o thirds of stop).
08-03-2016, 07:14 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
like anything that is fairly involved you have to 'work with it'
That's my point: P-TTL is fairly involved.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Same for manual, and whilst your soundbite about 'up and down, lesson over' (something like that) is catchy, that certainly doesn't reflect the sum total of complexity, learning and issues surrounding Manual flash.
I don't see a "sum total of complexity ... and issues surrounding Manual flash". What is the complexity if you don't exceed the sync-speed? What are the issues?

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
This probably does come down to whether we can accept your last point above .... that on-camera, 'dynamic' fluid etc flash photography does not imply a need for automatic flash ..... like jake14mw just before, I believe that for most people, and certainly beginners, it does.
If a beginner wants to get "some shot", they are certainly well advised to use automatic approaches.

In analogy, if you handed someone a DSLR for the first time, you'd probably advise them to use "Auto" mode on the selection dial, rather than "Av" or even "M". That's fine, but I think herein lies a fundamentally different assumption we are making.

I'm not after "some shot". I regard photography not as a means to obtain snaps, but to obtain images that realise one's vision. For the latter, one must be able to control exposure, whether it is from ambient light or artificial light. One must understand how an aperture works, in what way shutter speed influences ambient light vs flash light, etc.

In that sense, I agree: It is easier for a beginner to set everything to "Auto" and get some results instead of spending a couple of days on "Strobist 101" and understand how ambient and flash exposure need to be managed. Yet, "how to get some results" is not the discussion I'm interested in when I'm talking to someone using a DSLR (as opposed to a phone or a compact camera where the flash automatically pops out when the camera thinks it needs it).

My view is that once you start wanting to take control of what happens in your images in terms of exposure, manual flash photography is just easier because
  • the fundamental principles are dead easy.
  • results are 100% predictable.
  • results are 100% repeatable.
  • it does not get simpler than "up" or "down".
I'm not denying that someone proficient in the use of P-TTL can get great results too and that they may even have an advantage in very fast-paced scenarios. I'm just saying it is harder for a beginner to work out how to make the various (pretty much undocumented and half-unknown) auto-algorithms work in their favour and avoid all the pitfalls that P-TTL undeniable brings with it.
08-03-2016, 08:31 AM   #22
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LensBeginer, fair points about the ambient and flash mixing there. The only thing I would emphasise here is that we can't lose sight of the fact that manual flash power control introduces 3 new variable aspects, 3 things that require a flash power or other compensating adjustment ... That is distance/bounce distance, flash head zoom, plus the overall need to manually compensate for ANY adjustment of ANY variable.

This is one reason I opt for P-TTL on-camera in fluid situations. P-TTL will hold flash exposure through all of these other adjustments, including aperture and ISO jiggles. This allows the flash exposure component to be isolated and managed/conceptualised on its own, which is a good way to handle things I feel.

ClassA, you naturally tend to characterise lists of P-TTL points as issues and problems, while simultaneously characterising lists of Manual points as solutions. The reality is surely not that extremely far apart. You referred to gaining a 'sense' for setting manual power levels ... Well, the same sense develops and applies to quickly and efficiently finding the right flash compensation amounts and sensing how certain surfaces and reflections might influence that. Really, what we should be thinking of is the different styles of working and what is more intuitive in each situation. And then the choices come down to each persons response to that, and their budget. We might not all be able to end up with what is ideal for everything.

I applaud your experience and skill in making that event job work with a manual on-camera flash. But, in general, I don't think it could be recommended, and not for a beginner. I'm not even sure if it is a good way to learn .... ? I always come back to it, but there's a neat logic to mentally reckoning our flash exposures in the same manner, the same unit, as our ambient exposure ...ie the 'stop'. Really, working a flash on-camera, with the displays and all the controls right in front of your face, it's the most intuitive and practical workflow approach, don't you think ....

---------- Post added 03-08-16 at 15:41 ----------

Regarding the complexities, well both types of flash control and systems have their complexities, of course they do! Sure, there's stuff to lean about and concepts to understand about automatic flash metering and what auto-modes will be trying to do, but there's more to successfully operating a manual flash system as well ... It's not just a case of up and down!

Anyone doubting this, take a look at the Cactus V6 manual, the section on working with absolute power levels .... Sure, you don't have to, but its an example of the potential complexities of manual flash and range of things to understand as you really get into it.

08-03-2016, 08:59 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
If you're in a very dark environment and using flash (be it direct, bounced, white-carded, diffused etc.) as your main light source, then light variations are of secondary importance, nothing that can't be corrected in post, even easier if you use RAW.

If you're in a well-lit situation, and are using flash just to open up some shadows, then flash power in negligible in relation to ambient light, and the bulk of the exposure changes are done with shutter speed (if under max-sync speed) and aperture. With the former you control ambient light, with the latter both light sources. Flash would remain roughly where you put it, save for minor adjustments

Only tricky situation I can foresee is when the light contribution from ambient and flash is very similar, but I can't see why it should be more time consuming to change flash power a stop than shutter speed... actually in one case you just have to push one button once, in another rotate a wheel two or three times (depending on if you're using half stops o thirds of stop).
There are certainly some conditions where using manual flash is not too difficult. When I use a flash I'm in manual mode over 50% of the time. But for a first flash purchaser, having a flash with Auto mode makes things much easier, especially at events. In my experience, Auto mode works more consistently than P-TTL. If you don't have to worry about setting the flash power, you can concentrate more on other things to make your pictures better. Any of the flashes I recommended are fairly powerful for their compact size and can be used in manual mode as well.
08-03-2016, 05:04 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
This is one reason I opt for P-TTL on-camera in fluid situations. P-TTL will hold flash exposure through all of these other adjustments, including aperture and ISO jiggles.
If P-TTL played only that role, it would be very useful. However, it attempts to do more than that, i.e., find the right flash exposure as well.

For some, that's a blessing, for others it is a curse, because they experience the exposure to be influenced by factors that they wish wouldn't change the exposure (something changing the background, a reflection occurring, etc.).

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
ClassA, you naturally tend to characterise lists of P-TTL points as issues and problems, while simultaneously characterising lists of Manual points as solutions.
I admit to seeing the variability of automatic flash exposure more of a curse than a blessing. I see the many cases in which it is undesirable and tend to disregard the situations in which it is really useful. This is influenced by the type of photography I normally do (doesn't require fraction-of-a-second decisions) and my positive experiences with using manual approaches in situations in which others say you'd be mad to attempt without P-TTL.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
You referred to gaining a 'sense' for setting manual power levels ... Well, the same sense develops and applies to quickly and efficiently finding the right flash compensation amounts and sensing how certain surfaces and reflections might influence that.
First of all, I truly value that you acknowledge (not for the first time) that as a P-TTL user one has to make manual adjustments as well (through exposure compensation). I've seen many reports where those adjustments are quite drastic (e.g., 2 stops). BTW, this makes P-TTL not very desirable to use in a multi-flash setup, as one has to make the adjustments by physically visiting the flashes.

Second, it is very liberating not to care about the factors that may throw off automatic metering. Imagine you could use your camera in manual mode all the time and would get the exposure right independently of whether you are taking pictures of a Yeti in a snowfield or a cat in a coalmine. I'm not saying that I can do that and I do value automatic exposure modes for non-flash photography, but when using flash, exposure gets more complicated and I personally find it too complicated to figure out what the camera is attempting to do with its logic and steer it towards what I want. The camera has no chance of knowing what I want to achieve with the flash (fill, key, rim, etc.) so it will be wrong in many situations.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I applaud your experience and skill in making that event job work with a manual on-camera flash. But, in general, I don't think it could be recommended, and not for a beginner.
I was pretty much a flash beginner myself back then.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I'm not even sure if it is a good way to learn .... ?
I think it is, if you want to take control.
If you are happy with just any "correct" exposure then, yes, it is better to not learn anything about how flash exposure works and just use P-TTL (with exposure compensation).


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I always come back to it, but there's a neat logic to mentally reckoning our flash exposures in the same manner, the same unit, as our ambient exposure ...ie the 'stop'.
I do that when I'm using manual flash power control. Not sure what you mean.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Really, working a flash on-camera, with the displays and all the controls right in front of your face, it's the most intuitive and practical workflow approach, don't you think ....
I find many flash interfaces non-intuitive to operate and not geared towards a fluid work style. If the 360/540 support to change the flash exposure compensation immediately on a constant basis (without entering a menu or activating a special mode) then that's great. I know flashes, where this isn't the case.

If I have my V6(II) dial in front of my face and only have to decide whether to turn it right or left, I don't think it gets more intuitive and more direct than that.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
but there's more to successfully operating a manual flash system as well ... It's not just a case of up and down!
What else is there?

Bear in mind, that I'm assuming that one is after more than just "some picture", so a fundamental understanding of how ambient and flash light interact is a given.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Anyone doubting this, take a look at the Cactus V6 manual, the section on working with absolute power levels ...
First, I find the principle very simple, once you got what it is about.

Second, you don't need absolute power level mode to do manual flash photography.

As a matter of fact, absolute power level control is a case of some automatic support to deal with the fact that speedlights have different levels of output power. In other words, the "complication" is introduced because there is support for automation, i.e., because it is a step away from keeping things fully manual.

Having said that, all one has to do in practice is to activate it once and from then on it just means that the same number, e.g.," 10.0" means the same light output whereas "1/64" may not result in the same light output as "1/64" for another flash. That is rather simple, isn't it?

Compare that to understanding how shutter speed is limited in Av mode when using flash and understanding what the camera is trying to achieve, bearing in mind that not all Pentax camera models appear to be exhibiting the same behaviour. The only way I can accept the respective complexity is to not attempting to understand it but simply let it work for me. I find that the latter part does not work (because I'm not interested in just "some result") so I lost interest in automatic modes.
08-04-2016, 08:27 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
I have four Yongnuo flashes, great bang for your buck, but NOT for a first flash. I have never once used a Yongnuo on camera. If you are at an event, you don't want to HAVE to keep adjusting a manual flash.
Agreed, certainly for an on-camera flash scenario.

---------- Post added 04-08-16 at 15:46 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If P-TTL played only that role, it would be very useful. However, it attempts to do more than that, i.e., find the right flash exposure as well. For some, that's a blessing, for others it is a curse, because they experience the exposure to be influenced by factors that they wish wouldn't change the exposure (something changing the background, a reflection occurring, etc.).
I do find that P-TTL plays that role very well, and it really helps when you need to re-shuffle things a bit, say distances, or checking different ambient light effects. I ofen feel you are exaggerating the variable aspects here .... its rare for reflections and backgrounds things to change in a scenario so much that they throw off the flash exposure .... its not like a lens hunting around.

I often use a simple single reflective white umbrella beside my subject (often one of the kids at home, just sitting playing or outside on a bike or sandpit). There's fluidity because the kids will move a lot, causing slight adjustments to the distance, and I might have to grab the umbrella and turn it a bit to adjust the angle, and many times. As well I will be shuffling the shutter speed for ambient balancing .... if outdoors this will often be into and out of HSS mode, (seamless and automatic on Pentax Flashes as you switch above and below the Max Sync...).

In this simple scenario, with one off camera reflected P-TTL slave, and one on-camera Pentax flash in 'Control' mode, I find absolutely no need for Manual flash exposures at all. The P-TTL system delivers a good flash exposure angled across the subjects for the vast majority of shots, and only the occaisional tweak of flash compensation (usually around the range of -1.3 through +0.7 stops) is ever necessary. As I've said before, I value the logic of working in the same units of adjustment (stops) for the ambient and flash exposures (as opposed to manual flash using a power fraction figure (eg 1/8th), based on the maximum power of each individual manual flash, and nothing to do with a relationship to my camera-metered centre reading (which is someting I can gain a sense of and apply in the same manner to both flash and ambient exposures).

---------- Post added 04-08-16 at 15:50 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I was pretty much a flash beginner myself back then.
That was an on-camera manual flash scenario? I only ask because you referred to not having remote control in those days, which wouldn't apply to on-camera flash. When I asked if you had done it, it was only specifically about hotshoe on-camera use, which I feel is unsuited to manual flash exposures.

---------- Post added 04-08-16 at 16:10 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Originally posted by mcgregni Quote I'm not even sure if it is a good way to learn .... ?
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I think it is, if you want to take control. If you are happy with just any "correct" exposure then, yes, it is better to not learn anything about how flash exposure works and just use P-TTL (with exposure compensation).
I do feel that we need to avoid a characterisation of automatic flash as somehow being about just accepting, , what the camera gives you, a technique to just get 'any shot', vs manual flash being about taking creative control and being about realising a vision etc etc.

There's nothing inherently non-creative / artistic about P-TTL .... like manual power adjustment, its just a technical means to the end. Of course (you know I always accept this), for complex multi-light creative effects and fine control a full manual remote system is ideal .... no dispute there, I would do this myself, its why I've got Cactus equipment.

I wish I had more time for doing complex, multi-light stuff. The reality is that most of my flash work is fairly mundane, home and family kind of stuff .... I'm a photographer who wants to elevate my people pics above the snapshot, and I do that with taking some simple control over the lighting and the flash / ambient balance. For this humble purpose I find P-TTL, both off and on-camera, to be a reliable and efficient tool, allowing great flexibility and control.

---------- Post added 04-08-16 at 16:17 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I find many flash interfaces non-intuitive to operate and not geared towards a fluid work style. If the 360/540 support to change the flash exposure compensation immediately on a constant basis (without entering a menu or activating a special mode) then that's great. I know flashes, where this isn't the case.
With the Pentax units, when in P-TTL or P-TTL (Wireless Control Mode), then the Flash Compensation setting is the default for the Set button/ Dial ..... you do have to press to activate then turn, but its quick.

---------- Post added 04-08-16 at 16:22 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
What else is there? Bear in mind, that I'm assuming that one is after more than just "some picture", so a fundamental understanding of how ambient and flash light interact is a given
Flash and ambient balancing is a given for both techniques and styles .... in fact the learning and understanding of the fundamentals should be the same for both. Ideally any one photographer should be well versed in controlling flash by both methods, so that they are able to take full advantage of the pluses from both.

The other things I am talking about that add complexity to the manual systems are the various trigger methods and compatibilities etc ... We probably do get more forum questions relating to the various radio manual triggered systems available than we do about dedicated system flashes ... At least that's my impression....

Last edited by mcgregni; 08-04-2016 at 10:05 AM.
08-04-2016, 11:45 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
As a matter of fact, absolute power level control is a case of some automatic support to deal with the fact that speedlights have different levels of output power. In other words, the "complication" is introduced because there is support for automation, i.e., because it is a step away from keeping things fully manual.
I love that, it is absolutely 'ClassAic' ..... (there's a new flash term) ....So, it's the automation that is the only complication ! Would you not ever like a little helping hand ?

I'm sure you've seen (and perhaps diplomatically staying out of it), but I am looking at offering more guidance on the automatic camera modes when mixed with P-TTL. Of course, there are variables in performance between cameras, although I suspect it is variations between photographers that may provide the most differences. But, there are some principles to understand about what the camera is trying to do, and how it can do that, when in auto modes. Just like learning about manual flash techniques, if people want sucessfull all-auto flash photographs , then they have to learn the system and 'work WITH it' .... we often hear reports of working against it! So I will try and offer that guidance, because there are legitimate occasions for letting rip and getting the camera to make the decisions .... but only if the photographer can set things up well and use it in realistic settings and with realistic base settings.

My own personal approach is to rarely use any camera auto exposure mode, but rather Manual mode combined with P-TTL flash.
08-04-2016, 11:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I ofen feel you are exaggerating the variable aspects here .... its rare for reflections and backgrounds things to change in a scenario so much that they throw off the flash exposure
Sorry to hear that you feel that way. My view is simply that P-TTL without exposure compensation rarely works. My own experience is limited but negative. I've read many threads on other people having the need to adjust. So when you have adjusted already, wouldn't you want it to work from then on? However the crux of the matter is that the automatic exposure support will not only adjust when it is useful but also when it is unhelpful.

Even the automatic metering support for standard (non-flash) photography often gets it wrong, AFAIC, and it is far more advanced when you set it to multi-metering than P-TTL automatic flash exposure is.

I think to a reasonable extent, you actually agree with me or at least know where I'm coming from because you wrote
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
My own personal approach is to rarely use any camera auto exposure mode, but rather Manual mode combined with P-TTL flash.
I'm simply taking that a step further to flash photography. Ironically, I find that camera auto exposure modes can be really helpful, in particular TAv mode, but as I said the camera's logic for that is much more advanced and it doesn't have to deal with two different sources of light and the respective decision making either.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
In this simple scenario, with one off camera reflected P-TTL slave, and one on-camera Pentax flash in 'Control' mode, I find absolutely no need for Manual flash exposures at all.
Well, why would you?

I would never urge anyone to switch to manual, if P-TTL works for them. I'd still recommend to a beginner to learn the ropes with the most simple control possible, though.

I also remark that many professional shooters use manual control even when the automated approach would work pretty well because they want to apply batch corrections in post-production. They don't want to deal with the variabilities that automated modes can introduce on an image by image basis. Now you can say I'm only seeing the negative side of the automated approach and not when the variability actually results in a compensation that evens out exposure difference. OK, I'm hearing you, but please note that I'm reporting on what professionals do. I happen to agree with them as well but it is not just my own distorted view of what P-TTL can and cannot do.


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
That was an on-camera manual flash scenario?
I used the flash nearby, "on-person", but avoid "on-camera" as a rule. I don't like the look of straight on-camera flash at all and even when you use it for bouncing only, the weight it adds to the camera makes handling very tedious after a while. I was holding the camera in one hand and the flash in the other. I used a simply radio trigger with no remote power control, so adjustments were not easy to make (having both hands occupied with holding something).

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
When I asked if you had done it, it was only specifically about hotshoe on-camera use, which I feel is unsuited to manual flash exposures.
Why is it more unsuited to manual flash exposures than off-camera flash usage?


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I do feel that we need to avoid a characterisation of automatic flash as somehow being about just accepting, , what the camera gives you, a technique to just get 'any shot', vs manual flash being about taking creative control and being about realising a vision etc etc.
It was not my intention to create such a characterisation.

However, I stand by my view that once you try going beyond accepting what an automated approach gives you, you quickly enter the realm of fighting the automated decisions. They did not produce what you want in the first place and we will probably not live to see the day where they become sophisticated enough to anticipate what you want artistically and control the light accordingly. The scenario where all that is needed is a constant compensation tweak that falls within the supported compensation range is an ideal one and in my experience a rare one.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
There's nothing inherently non-creative / artistic about P-TTL
True, but it can be so much harder to make it behave the way you want it.

I see that something like a general key light is achievable without too much manual intervention. But as soon as you are trying to create a backlight scenario, perhaps with intentional flare, or want a specific amount of rim light, etc. then it quickly turns out into a fight between you and the algorithms.


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
The other things I am talking about that add complexity to the manual systems are the various trigger methods and compatibilities etc ...
What "various trigger methods"?

I accept that the workarounds the V6 needed for "HSS" photography can be criticised, but w.r.t. to the V6II I don't see the need for "various trigger methods".


What "compatibilities"?

I think we need to keep topics separate. If any of this (e.g., "compatibilities") has to do with the use of third-party equipment, that's a different discussion. You can use a Pentax flash or some perfectly compatible third-party product for manual flash control without ever having "compatibility" issues. The fact that there are a lot of third-party offerings which may be used with Pentax (with some of them being designed for Canikon) cannot be construed as a negative for the manual approach to flash photography.

What do you mean by "etc"?


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
We probably do get more forum questions relating to the various radio manual triggered systems available than we do about dedicated system flashes
I don't know about that and
  1. many of them will be related to Chinglish manuals, products that were made for Canikon but are used on a Pentax, general third-party issues, etc. none of which are intrinsic manual flash problems.
  2. even if we could establish some imbalance of questions (either way) it is not straightforward to understand the reasons for it. Given that one approach is much more affordable, one may expect more questions due to this factor alone. Pentax flash prices aren't really designed for the masses, are they?

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
So I will try and offer that guidance, because there are legitimate occasions for letting rip and getting the camera to make the decisions .... but only if the photographer can set things up well and use it in realistic settings and with realistic base settings.
That's 100% fine and I commend your efforts.

I just happen to feel that it is not worth understanding algorithms (that seem to change with each camera model) and sometimes having the need to fight them for the benefits they offer. It works better for me, when I'm the only one making decisions and in my experience the automated approach is not smart enough to purely support my decisions. Instead, it is making some of its own.
08-06-2016, 07:38 AM   #28
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Going back to the original post, is the Yongnuo Flash a great investment for a first flash under $100.00 my answer is emphatically yes. The majority of pros that I know whether they shoot with 3rd party flashes or the top of the line flash mainly shoot in manual mode. Why, because they control the lighting and creative decisions. The OP also was considering using it for off camera portraits and here manual is the best way to go especially if you are considering adding more lights. Also, the best way to learn what a flash can do off or on camera is by using manual flash. So yes are there advantages to p-ttl, of course but once you learn how to control your flash manually then you get to decide not the camera what is best for a situation.

It's like my camera, I shoot 90% in manual and occasionally I will shoot in on of the automatic modes only to be upset because it made a decision I did not want. Sometimes I shoot in those modes to compare to my decision making process. I believe the OP had someone who mainly shot in manual so they would be very comfortable learning manual flash. There are a phletora of great off camera flash tutorials on YouTube from B&H and Adorama and a host of others that will get you well on your way.
08-08-2016, 07:45 PM   #29
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I'm relatively new to flash and I can say with limited experience for on camera flash I prefer my 540 PTTL flash. For off camera I use the yongnuo. The 540 is much more powerful and lends itself to the style that I use. I bounce flash and try to make it look like off camera. It's easier to use also when conditions change and people are moving around. It does still have a learning curve. You have to know when to dial it down and when to dial it up. The other positive is that it is hss capable.
08-09-2016, 05:26 AM   #30
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I do want to remain wary of the original posters budget, which is obviously limiting, and I'm sure sorry for turning this into an epic P-TTL vs Manual debate .... Although I guess this is as good a place as anywhere for that. I hope it has been interesting and informative at least, although there's plenty of conflicting advice!

I agree with Cwilson1343 just above, but it has to be affordable of course. I do think there is a clear distinction between on -camera and slave usage, mainly because of the nature and style of on-camera shooting, with lots of bounce and angles and distances changing. This really suits P-TTL I think. It's not necessarily all about extreme fast paced photography, but rather the automatic flash component supports the style of camera workflow ... Well, that's my story and I'm sticking with it. .

I do prefer working in the same units of adjustment (Stops) for both flash and ambient lighting, which has a good logic, and of course we develop that sense for the adjustments. Even before taking the first shot, I will always set a compensation amount based on my assessment of the surfaces I'm using and the creative intents.

It's worth pointing out, that I don't think there is ever the expectation that the system will get the right exposure with 0 compensation ... That's not how to work with it. ClassA has criticised P-TTL for not being accurate first time and needing adjustments .... But its not meant to .... The compensations are part and parcel of the workflow. It's a style of working that suits certain situations, and should not be compared to manual flash working based on comparisons of the number of steps or adjustments needed. That kind of misses the point I feel .....

Last edited by mcgregni; 08-09-2016 at 05:50 AM.
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