[Cwilson1343]

I do want to remain wary of the original posters budget, which is obviously limiting, and I'm sure sorry for turning this into an epic P-TTL vs Manual debate .... Although I guess this is as good a place as anywhere for that. I hope it has been interesting and informative at least, although there's plenty of conflicting advice!

I agree with Cwilson1343 just above, but it has to be affordable of course. I do think there is a clear distinction between on -camera and slave usage, mainly because of the nature and style of on-camera shooting, with lots of bounce and angles and distances changing. This really suits P-TTL I think. It's not necessarily all about extreme fast paced photography, but rather the automatic flash component supports the style of camera workflow ... Well, that's my story and I'm sticking with it. .

I do prefer working in the same units of adjustment (Stops) for both flash and ambient lighting, which has a good logic, and of course we develop that sense for the adjustments. Even before taking the first shot, I will always set a compensation amount based on my assessment of the surfaces I'm using and the creative intents.

It's worth pointing out, that I don't think there is ever the expectation that the system will get the right exposure with 0 compensation ... That's not how to work with it. ClassA has criticised P-TTL for not being accurate first time and needing adjustments .... But its not meant to .... The compensations are part and parcel of the workflow. It's a style of working that suits certain situations, and should not be compared to manual flash working based on comparisons of the number of steps or adjustments needed. That kind of misses the point I feel .....

I agree. Thanks. I'm finding that with P-TTL I have to compensate heavily for backlit subjects and also for bounce depending on color and distance of the object that I bounce off of. I'm not to the stage of always knowing the correct adjustment so it takes a few test photos for me sometimes. I know this may have gotten off topic but in a good way. My downfall with the Yongnuo flash is that it has a guide # of 58 which means if you are to use it on a sunny day it has to be really close to the subject or you need two or three flashes to have enough power. I want them close but three feet is extreme in some situations!

[howieb101]

I would say that for a beginner I would suggest get a P-ttl flash. A manual flash is only going to be useful if you put the work in to learn how to use it. After all that's what p-ttl is for, automation.

As for consistency in exposure using p-ttl, it is like exposure metering. If you use the flash often enough you should be able to learn when to use +'ve/-ve flash exposure compensation.

Also, if you only ever intend to use one flash then getting any flash system with manual power controls, group functions is moot. While Class-A is a major proponent of Cactus triggers and flashes they aren't the only answer.

If you get a p-tll flash you can always choose to shoot in manual mode if you wish. You get the option of p-tll when you want it and manual as well. A manual only flash will only ever be manual only.

If you want a semi-auto flash then an auto-thyristor flash mentioned earlier such as a 2nd hand Nikon SB-28 or SB-25 will work surprisingly consistently. This could be a good middle ground although while you lose p-ttl you do have some automation that is also reliable.

I should add, if you have a K3 then p-ttl flash exposure consistency is very good compared to the older K5 series albeit with a slightly longer delay to actually fire the shutter.

If you can afford it, an original Pentax FGZ-540 2nd hand would be a good option. You get your P-ttl, auto-thyristor mode as well, manual mode and importantly HSS if you want to use fast lenses with flash outdoors.

[LensBeginner]

I agree. Thanks. I'm finding that with P-TTL I have to compensate heavily for backlit subjects and also for bounce depending on color and distance of the object that I bounce off of. I'm not to the stage of always knowing the correct adjustment so it takes a few test photos for me sometimes. I know this may have gotten off topic but in a good way. My downfall with the Yongnuo flash is that it has a guide # of 58 which means if you are to use it on a sunny day it has to be really close to the subject or you need two or three flashes to have enough power. I want them close but three feet is extreme in some situations!

???

AF 540 FGZ II ASDASF king of the hill, top of the heap is 54, i.e. less powerful...
e.g. 3 meters
Pentax 54/3= f/18
Yongnuo 58/3 = f/19.3
both guide numbers are in meters at ISO100.
You need packs 'n' heads for more oomph...

[Cwilson1343]

???

AF 540 FGZ II ASDASF king of the hill, top of the heap is 54, i.e. less powerful...
e.g. 3 meters
Pentax 54/3= f/18
Yongnuo 58/3 = f/19.3
both guide numbers are in meters at ISO100.
You need packs 'n' heads for more oomph...

Thank you for the correction I did read the information wrong on that. Like I said fairly new to the flash game. Tried to offer my two cents as based on someone who is learning and there again I was taught something new! I was excited thinking that the 540 was so much more powerful lol. I do love the yongnuo flashes but have only really used them inside because I didn't see it as having enough power to do what I wanted outside without using two per umbrella. Looks like I need to go do some more work.

[mcgregni]

Guide numbers can be deceptive. I guess generally manual flashes provide more power per buck, if that's what's needed.

Some good points there from Cwilson1343 and HowieB101 regarding the suitability of P-TTL. We've heard plenty of reports of issues from K5 users, that's for sure, and the longer pre-flash delay on the K3 .... those things have to be acknowledged. I've been fortunate that the K7 has been great with both AF-540FGZs (I & II models). I wonder how K1 users are finding things?

A manual flash for a beginner .... its an interesting idea ... also that it aids learning. I can see the logic to that idea, but I wonder if it depends on a lot of willingness to work things out and read up, plus a fair bit of maths and physics ? I know, my 'Pentax Flash Guide' is 90 pages, but not very much of that is actually about P-TTL exposure control. There is more to say about that, especially in automatic modes, but most of the Guide is about the many features, special operations, and mode interactions between camera, lens and flashes. Its fair to say to say that a beginner could certainly get going very easily in P-TTL mode without reading too much first. After some confidence and experience develops then its good to read up and understand whats going on more, because that awareness helps to gain greater control and become more proficient / efficient.

I'd be very interested to know how those suggesting that Manual flash is a good idea would advise on setting accurate power levels .... what are the recommended workflows or calculations that a newbie would need to learn about to ensure quick and accurate power settings on their new manual flash. I guess we'd need to be thinking about aperture / ISO / Distance / Bounce factors / flash zoom , as well as the all important creative intent, the vision of the photograph. Is there a special table or formula to learn in order to get it right? Or is it a case of just guess a start point power setting, then chimp using the LCD or histogram ... ?

[Class A]

Or is it a case of just guess a start point power setting, then chimp using the LCD or histogram ... ?

I don't see why it would have to be any more than that.

As for the need for a "...fair bit of maths and physics...": Why? What for?

In the days of film where every exposure cost something and immediate feedback wasn't available, getting your exposure right before releasing the shutter was crucial. Nowadays, we can make use of immediate visual feedback and histograms.

I personally take an educated guess and then adjust from there.

If one lacks experience one can always start in the middle of the power range, then use the middle of the better half (depending on whether the shot was under- or overexposed), and so on. This takes one within one stop of the optimal exposure with at most three attempts.

[mcgregni]

It's down to the original poster now ..... Have we provided enough helpful confusion, and useful contradictions ?

Whatever is chosen, we all want to see success and better pictures come out of it. Which approach and technology is better for learning with may come down to the individual. Automation can be a good support to getting success early on, but of course there is a lot of stuff going on things to go wrong! Manual has that stability and consistency, but could be frustrating if the balance of things (with the camera exposure controls as well) gets confusing .... I'm sure there are plenty of people who have given up and not worked through things through impatience. That's where the individuals attitude and commitment comes into it.

I'm really rather glad that I didn't waste too much money in my film days shooting with flash! Digital has revolutionised what can be achieved and accelerated the learning curve. Now we can try out all sorts of techniques and refine our results with the instant feedback. I still see flash meters sold, and questions come up about them. But it seems they are really not needed now .... And I can cancel that physics course as well ...?