Your exposure mode preference for P-TTL flash?

**JimJohnson** · 08-15-2016, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

I usually put the camera in M, at a shutter speed and aperture I want and the lowest ISO to give a moderately underexposed result. I always bounce the flash off something or use a big diffuser. Still deciding over Auto vs P-TTL as the preferred flash setting.

I would much rather push two or three stops in post processing than have blown highlights.

Great portraits Sandy - For what its worth, I use manual exposure too when I can control the subjects' location and actions - preferably with an incident or flash meter and stationary off-camera lighting.

However, this is rather difficult to do for candids taken during a quickly evolving social event as described in the original post. This is why I am leaning toward P-TTL flash with one of the automated metering modes and looking for opinions as to why people prefer one versus another.

Sandy Hancock · 08-15-2016, 05:21 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JimJohnson

However, this is rather difficult to do for candids taken during a quickly evolving social event as described in the original post. This is why I am leaning toward P-TTL flash with one of the automated metering modes and looking for opinions as to why people prefer one versus another.

The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL
That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash.

Some more:

mcgregni · 08-15-2016, 05:27 AM

I've been thinking a bit recently about auto modes and flash. The reason that auto-ISO 'should' be avoided always, is because it is trying to reconcile two conflicting demands. The ambient exposure aspect is given priority by the camera (so for example, in a dimly lit room the ISO will increase to allow good exposure with steady, handholding ..... This could be ISO 1600, 3200 etc. However, this figure is often totally inappropriate to the flash configuration .... Distances, bounce angles etc). The system is incapable of resolving this conflict. It needs the human brain for this complexity, not a tiny computer brain.

Culture · 08-15-2016, 06:12 AM

Nice shots and nicely lit. What is your metering mode. I am guessing not spot metering at least. Center weighted?

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL
That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash.

Some more:

Sandy Hancock · 08-15-2016, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by mcgregni

It needs the human brain for this complexity, not a tiny computer brain.

More importantly, expecting two tiny computer brains to cooperate is asking a lot. Take control of the parameters you WANT controlled, and let the flash fill in the gap.

---------- Post added 15-08-16 at 10:46 PM ----------

Originally posted by Culture

Nice shots and nicely lit. What is your metering mode. I am guessing not spot metering at least. Center weighted?

Not metered at all. Manual ISO, shutter speed and aperture set at best guess. P-TTL on a single, bounced, hot-shoe flash. Pushed in PP as appropriate.

**JimJohnson** · 08-15-2016, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL
That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash.

Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to.

Sandy Hancock · 08-15-2016, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by JimJohnson

Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to.

The flash technique doesn't need to change. I had less than five seconds to get each of shots 2, 3, 5 and 6 of that last series.

It's really quite simple.

Culture · 08-15-2016, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

More importantly, expecting two tiny computer brains to cooperate is asking a lot. Take control of the parameters you WANT controlled, and let the flash fill in the gap.

---------- Post added 15-08-16 at 10:46 PM ----------

Not metered at all. Manual ISO, shutter speed and aperture set at best guess. P-TTL on a single, bounced, hot-shoe flash. Pushed in PP as appropriate.

I understand what you mean with all manual setting but I am talking about AE metering modes. Do you use spot, center-weighted, or multi segmented?

I am guessing all of these will give a different result?

aleonx3 · 08-15-2016, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by JimJohnson

Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to.

@jimJohnson, I think I know what you mean... and I do that all the time with flash of course indoors.. for example like this,

K3_P5315

Sandy Hancock · 08-15-2016, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Culture

I understand what you mean with all manual setting but I am talking about AE metering modes. Do you use spot, center-weighted, or multi segmented?

I am trying to make a case for *avoiding* AE metering modes. Just set the camera to what ISO, shutter speed and aperture you want and let the flash work out the rest. Prepare to iron out the bugs in PP and good results can be had.

Don't overthink it.

mcgregni · 08-15-2016, 11:40 PM

I doubt that there will be much difference between Centre Weighted and Multi Metering for this type of thing ..... Spot I would avoid, I don't think its an intuitive way to meter for this type of balancing act.

It was said above that the shots were not 'metered' , and this could be down to definintion .... but even in Manual camera exposure mode, the meter is still working and the EV indicator shows 0 at the level where the meter thinks the exposure is 'right'.

My practical approach to this kind of shot is to 'zoom past' the subjects and fill the frame with the background, in M mode, then press the green button .... this gives the '0-centred' meter exposure value. This is locked in now unless I change it. I then take a test shot without the flash of just the background, and adjust to taste (often a little underexposure by increasing shutter speed if possible, otherwise a smaller aperture / lower ISO) .... Then I frame up including the subjects, and take a test shot with P-TTL. Assess both the flash exposure and ambient background balance and adjust Flash Compensation as needed, plus any background fine tuning. Try again and hopefully its all good!

I suppose this takes 20-30 seconds if being careful and going for 'precise'.

**clackers** · 08-16-2016, 12:13 AM

Count me in as another one who likes indoors to spend a little time before shooting to get the ambient right in Manual (often -1 of a stop, and checking in Live View), then let P-TTL handle the subject/s. I'll adjust the FEC like salt and pepper.

**JimJohnson** · 08-16-2016, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by aleonx3

@jimJohnson, I think I know what you mean... and I do that all the time with flash of course indoors.. for example like this,
K3_P5315

or like below - the moment was there and gone:

aleonx3 · 08-16-2016, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by JimJohnson

or like below - the moment was there and gone:

Very nice.. yes, that's what I mean. If there is anything to improve, I would balance a bit more ambient light in the mix by cutting down a little on flash (use EV) to preserve the "moment"; like this one that I have done recently.

stevebrot · 08-16-2016, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

I am trying to make a case for *avoiding* AE metering modes. Just set the camera to what ISO, shutter speed and aperture you want and let the flash work out the rest. Prepare to iron out the bugs in PP and good results can be had.

Don't overthink it.

What he said ^^^

One of the beauties of P-TTL flash photography is that it sort of frees you to use the aperture and shutter speeds appropriate for the ambient lighting and subject.

As for candids...my experience has been that it is only the first flash photo that is candid. As soon as you do it, you have blown your cover.

Steve

08-15-2016, 05:21 AM - 1 Like	#17
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by JimJohnson However, this is rather difficult to do for candids taken during a quickly evolving social event as described in the original post. This is why I am leaning toward P-TTL flash with one of the automated metering modes and looking for opinions as to why people prefer one versus another. The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash. Some more: Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 08-15-2016 at 05:33 AM.

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08-15-2016, 05:08 AM	#16
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772 Original Poster	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock I usually put the camera in M, at a shutter speed and aperture I want and the lowest ISO to give a moderately underexposed result. I always bounce the flash off something or use a big diffuser. Still deciding over Auto vs P-TTL as the preferred flash setting. I would much rather push two or three stops in post processing than have blown highlights. Great portraits Sandy - For what its worth, I use manual exposure too when I can control the subjects' location and actions - preferably with an incident or flash meter and stationary off-camera lighting. However, this is rather difficult to do for candids taken during a quickly evolving social event as described in the original post. This is why I am leaning toward P-TTL flash with one of the automated metering modes and looking for opinions as to why people prefer one versus another.

08-15-2016, 05:27 AM	#18
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	I've been thinking a bit recently about auto modes and flash. The reason that auto-ISO 'should' be avoided always, is because it is trying to reconcile two conflicting demands. The ambient exposure aspect is given priority by the camera (so for example, in a dimly lit room the ISO will increase to allow good exposure with steady, handholding ..... This could be ISO 1600, 3200 etc. However, this figure is often totally inappropriate to the flash configuration .... Distances, bounce angles etc). The system is incapable of resolving this conflict. It needs the human brain for this complexity, not a tiny computer brain.

08-15-2016, 06:12 AM	#19
Culture Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Vaasa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 818	Nice shots and nicely lit. What is your metering mode. I am guessing not spot metering at least. Center weighted? Originally posted by Sandy Hancock The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash. Some more:

08-15-2016, 06:13 AM	#20
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by mcgregni It needs the human brain for this complexity, not a tiny computer brain. More importantly, expecting two tiny computer brains to cooperate is asking a lot. Take control of the parameters you WANT controlled, and let the flash fill in the gap. ---------- Post added 15-08-16 at 10:46 PM ---------- Originally posted by Culture Nice shots and nicely lit. What is your metering mode. I am guessing not spot metering at least. Center weighted? Not metered at all. Manual ISO, shutter speed and aperture set at best guess. P-TTL on a single, bounced, hot-shoe flash. Pushed in PP as appropriate.

08-15-2016, 06:17 AM	#21
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772 Original Poster	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock The images I posted were all candids, taken at "quickly evolving social events". Camera on manual, flash on P-TTL That is exactly why I posted them; set the aperture and shutter speed, and leave the light to the flash. Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to.

08-15-2016, 06:20 AM	#22
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by JimJohnson Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to. The flash technique doesn't need to change. I had less than five seconds to get each of shots 2, 3, 5 and 6 of that last series. It's really quite simple.

08-15-2016, 06:49 AM	#23
Culture Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Vaasa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 818	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock More importantly, expecting two tiny computer brains to cooperate is asking a lot. Take control of the parameters you WANT controlled, and let the flash fill in the gap. ---------- Post added 15-08-16 at 10:46 PM ---------- Not metered at all. Manual ISO, shutter speed and aperture set at best guess. P-TTL on a single, bounced, hot-shoe flash. Pushed in PP as appropriate. I understand what you mean with all manual setting but I am talking about AE metering modes. Do you use spot, center-weighted, or multi segmented? I am guessing all of these will give a different result?

08-15-2016, 06:59 AM	#24
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by JimJohnson Okay, let me define "candid" a bit tighter as shots where the subject is not deliberately interacting with the photographer. Out of your selection, the bar scene is the only one that might meet that criteria. Please understand that I am not knocking your photographs, they are great, just not the style I am referring to. @jimJohnson, I think I know what you mean... and I do that all the time with flash of course indoors.. for example like this, K3_P5315

08-15-2016, 07:17 AM	#25
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by Culture I understand what you mean with all manual setting but I am talking about AE metering modes. Do you use spot, center-weighted, or multi segmented? I am trying to make a case for avoiding AE metering modes. Just set the camera to what ISO, shutter speed and aperture you want and let the flash work out the rest. Prepare to iron out the bugs in PP and good results can be had. Don't overthink it.

08-15-2016, 11:40 PM	#26
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	I doubt that there will be much difference between Centre Weighted and Multi Metering for this type of thing ..... Spot I would avoid, I don't think its an intuitive way to meter for this type of balancing act. It was said above that the shots were not 'metered' , and this could be down to definintion .... but even in Manual camera exposure mode, the meter is still working and the EV indicator shows 0 at the level where the meter thinks the exposure is 'right'. My practical approach to this kind of shot is to 'zoom past' the subjects and fill the frame with the background, in M mode, then press the green button .... this gives the '0-centred' meter exposure value. This is locked in now unless I change it. I then take a test shot without the flash of just the background, and adjust to taste (often a little underexposure by increasing shutter speed if possible, otherwise a smaller aperture / lower ISO) .... Then I frame up including the subjects, and take a test shot with P-TTL. Assess both the flash exposure and ambient background balance and adjust Flash Compensation as needed, plus any background fine tuning. Try again and hopefully its all good! I suppose this takes 20-30 seconds if being careful and going for 'precise'.

08-16-2016, 12:13 AM	#27
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Count me in as another one who likes indoors to spend a little time before shooting to get the ambient right in Manual (often -1 of a stop, and checking in Live View), then let P-TTL handle the subject/s. I'll adjust the FEC like salt and pepper.

08-16-2016, 03:58 AM	#28
JimJohnson Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,772 Original Poster	Originally posted by aleonx3 @jimJohnson, I think I know what you mean... and I do that all the time with flash of course indoors.. for example like this, K3_P5315 or like below - the moment was there and gone:

08-16-2016, 09:25 AM	#29
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by JimJohnson or like below - the moment was there and gone: Very nice.. yes, that's what I mean. If there is anything to improve, I would balance a bit more ambient light in the mix by cutting down a little on flash (use EV) to preserve the "moment"; like this one that I have done recently.

08-16-2016, 10:11 AM	#30
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock I am trying to make a case for avoiding AE metering modes. Just set the camera to what ISO, shutter speed and aperture you want and let the flash work out the rest. Prepare to iron out the bugs in PP and good results can be had. Don't overthink it. What he said ^^^ One of the beauties of P-TTL flash photography is that it sort of frees you to use the aperture and shutter speeds appropriate for the ambient lighting and subject. As for candids...my experience has been that it is only the first flash photo that is candid. As soon as you do it, you have blown your cover. Steve