Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-23-2016, 02:51 PM   #46
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,589
Thanks for that update and information .... I'm a little unsure of exactly your meaning about the Metz 64 and the metering .... ?

I'll take a look at the K70 manual ... Thanks for the tip-off. A ' flash off' setting is a completely new thing, and I'll need to include that point in the next updated version of my Guide to Pentax flash. I'm thinking it may only apply to the built in flash?

08-23-2016, 04:22 PM   #47
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,653
QuoteOriginally posted by UlrichSchiegg Quote
PS I have checked the K-70 user manual lately for some other topic. Under flash section it says that you can turn the flash off. On my K-S2 that option does not exist.
I only have the English version of the K-70 manual and have been unable to find anything about a flash "off" feature. Can you provide the language and page so we can see what you are referring to?


Steve
08-23-2016, 10:47 PM   #48
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2013
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 132
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I only have the English version of the K-70 manual and have been unable to find anything about a flash "off" feature. Can you provide the language and page so we can see what you are referring to?


Steve
Hello Steve, since the German version isn't out yet, I used the one from the Japanese site:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/man-pdf/k-70.pdf

But I read too quickly over it. When checking it, I was so happy to see it. Now I realized that p59 what is most likely meant is the feature to pop out the flash of the build in flash, and not a menue setting, as I read it first, even thought it appears in the menue setting.

Sorry for having taken your time.

PS Today I use the flash on/off power bottom to get the background ambient light in M-Mode with the green bottom. Not very convenient.

---------- Post added 08-24-16 at 07:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Yes, if the pop-up flash is raised or accessory flash is on the hotshoe and switched on, then they will always fire. There's always an exposure mode and power level set at all times. It might not be right, but it will fire regardless of the camera exposure settings.
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Thanks for that update and information .... I'm a little unsure of exactly your meaning about the Metz 64 and the metering .... ?
The Metz 64 doesn't always fire.

Last edited by UlrichSchiegg; 08-24-2016 at 12:24 AM.
08-24-2016, 07:34 AM   #49
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
JimJohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Summer:Lake Superior - Michigan Winter:Texas Hill Country
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,332
Original Poster
And my experience with the built-in flash, Pentax 540 and Sigma 610 units, is they all remember the last settings when turned off and subsequently turned on. The one exception is if you switch the camera to green (full auto) mode, the built-in flash will also switch from whatever you have set to full auto mode and stay there if you leave green mode.

08-24-2016, 08:38 AM   #50
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,653
QuoteOriginally posted by UlrichSchiegg Quote
Sorry for having taken your time.

PS Today I use the flash on/off power bottom to get the background ambient light in M-Mode with the green bottom. Not very convenient.
No problem. New features come out all the time and it is hard to keep up with them.

Why are you turning the flash off/on in M mode? Metering and operation in that mode should work the same regardless of whether flash is mounted, with the exception that the shutter speed is capped a 1/180s. Use the EV scale to meter the exposure. Green button metering is unnecessary unless you are using the aperture ring on vintage lenses.* P-TTL flash contribution is independent of the shutter/aperture settings in M mode.


Steve

* Even when using modern lenses, it might be good to consider changing the settings option for green button in M mode. Default is to the program line.

Last edited by stevebrot; 08-24-2016 at 08:52 AM.
08-24-2016, 11:51 AM   #51
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,589
Ye, I think metering occurs in any exposure mode with the half-press of the shutter button. Those of us who have deactivated AF for this half-press in favour of back-button-focus probably appreciate the independent control over AF and metering this configuration brings.

Regarding the point earlier about flash defaults after switching off, I believe the Pentax flashes always return to P-TTL mode with 0 flash compensation when switched on again. This cannot be changed as far as I know, and has long been a source of complaint, since people like to switch off sometimes and want to return to the same settings.

The Flash Mode and compensation setting on the cameras can be set to restore after power off and on via the Memory settings in the Rec menu.
08-31-2016, 12:09 PM   #52
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2013
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 132
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
[...]

Why are you turning the flash off/on in M mode? Metering and operation in that mode should work the same regardless of whether flash is mounted, with the exception that the shutter speed is capped a 1/180s. Use the EV scale to meter the exposure. Green button metering is unnecessary unless you are using the aperture ring on vintage lenses.* P-TTL flash contribution is independent of the shutter/aperture settings in M mode.
Hello Steve, that is not correct for the K-S2 with the 16-85. When the camera is in M-Mode and pop-up flash in M or A mode, the green bottom (Tv-Shift) gives a different setting. With the pop-flash up, the flash is considered and the green bottom (Tv-Shift) results in a metering that avoids background blurr.

The same is true, if I have the Metz 64 on. Gives the same metering result with the green bottom.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
* Even when using modern lenses, it might be good to consider changing the settings option for green button in M mode. Default is to the program line.
Yes, this I do. I have it on Tv-Shift.

---------- Post added 08-31-16 at 09:13 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
[...]

Regarding the point earlier about flash defaults after switching off, I believe the Pentax flashes always return to P-TTL mode with 0 flash compensation when switched on again. [...]
The Metz flash remembers the last settings.
08-31-2016, 12:37 PM   #53
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Loyal Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 32,653
QuoteOriginally posted by UlrichSchiegg Quote
Hello Steve, that is not correct for the K-S2 with the 16-85. When the camera is in M-Mode and pop-up flash in M or A mode, the green bottom (Tv-Shift) gives a different setting. With the pop-flash up, the flash is considered and the green bottom (Tv-Shift) results in a metering that avoids background blurr.

The same is true, if I have the Metz 64 on. Gives the same metering result with the green bottom.
Thanks for the clarification. Another undocumented feature, I guess. Does this bias apply to the EV scale as well? My comment was specifically suggesting EV scale as a preferred option over the green button.


Edit: I just tried this on my K-3 and can confirm the change in green button behavior in regards to whether a P-TTL flash is detected. The same is true in P, Sv and Av modes without the green button. The camera maintains a separate program line for flash, but I guess it never occurred to me that it would extend to the green button.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 08-31-2016 at 12:57 PM.
09-01-2016, 01:11 AM - 1 Like   #54
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2013
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 132
Well, maybe I describe how I do.

The guide is really terrific. I have read quite some documentation on flash usage, but the way that the document is structured to explain the control of ambient versus flash light, is a very unique and useful description. I have not found any better.

My main application is mixed light situation, where the focus is on ambient light with just 1-2 f-stops of fill light from the flash in local areas of the image. Often in back lit situations. I have the camera on manual mode M (ISO fixed, aperture and exposure time as well), and the flash on P-TTL or P-TTL HSS. If I can not get it to work as I want, I put the flash to manual and determine the power needed myself.

I should also say that I have used flashes on Olympus Pen cameras and a Canon G15 quite a lot, and did never struggled (I also didn't really understand, it just worked). On the Pentax, initially I was having a hard time to get to what I used to be able to do with the Canon and the Olympus. In Olympus world you select fill ligtht and in most cases you are done. Today, with help of the Pentax flash guide, I can manage quite easily in 99% of the situations.

As often, if you can't get something done, you blame it onto the equipment. I rather quickly realized that many DLSR users struggle (independent of the camera maker), just as I did. I haven't figured it out fully, but to my simplified opinion, it is simply that the compact and system cameras without mirrors have access to focus information during flash operation. I.e. the camera knows which area of the image the user wants to have in focus and link the flash exposure to that when they determine the flash power for the fill light. Using the view finder of a DSLR, the focus information and the exposure information are determined by 2 separate sensors in the bottom of the camera, independent of the image sensor. Since the mirror is in the line of sight to the image sensor, the image sensor gets no information. So the light meter sensor of a DSLR has to do the job alone (or in combination with a flash sensor). To my opinion, that is causing the trouble for DSLRs.

What I also love to have is getting the information needed into the view finder such that I don't need to take the camera down. With the electronic viewfinder this just normal, for the Pentax, the procedure below allows me to do so.

One comment regarding the ambient exposure in the flash guide p25-p27, from my perspective. The way it is explained is great for understanding. Just. The camera measures the integral light either in view finder mode (with the dedicated sensor) or in live view mode (with the image sensor). It can not do any different. Camera Metering = Ambient Light + Flash Light. The pre-flash is only triggered on the K-S2 when the exposure is taken, not during metering. Normally those flashes (pre and main) come so quickly behind each other, that you can hardly detect there is a pre-flash. If you select the 2 sec timer, they are clearly separated on the K-S2. But since there is no pre-flash during the metering, there will always be some uncertainty in P-TTL flash mode, how much flash light is added, because only with the pre-flash light the camera metering will know the contribution of the flash light to the image. Flash and camera set the required flash power based on the camera metering information and the flash information (distance, ...). This is my simplified understanding.

My Pentax procedure:
- Camera K-S2 with either the pop-up flash or the Metz 64 flash
- camera on manual mode (ISO fixed, Aperture set, Green bottom on Tv-Shift)
- flash on P-TTL mode (or if I expect exposure time less than the sync time, I set it to P-TT HSS mode)
- flash is out, I use the exposure compensation to the setting I prefer (mostly slight underexposure of the ambient light), then I push the green bottom, which set the exposure time considering the exposure compensation set
- I turn the flash on
- take the image
- mostly, for the first image of a setting, it is not quite right. So if I have too much or not enough flash light, I correct the camera exposure compensation. How much I need to correct depends on the reach of the flash in the image i.e. how much percentage of the image is influenced by the flash light.
- I retake the image

The procedure above may look complex, but it is not. I could also use the flash compensation to correct the flash light. But what I like about the procedure above is, that the exposure compensation can be viewed in the view finder, while the flash compensation can not be viewed in the view finder. If the flash light has only a very limited influence on the total image light, it is better to go to flash manual mode, rather than what is described above.

Feed-back on the above or corrections because of wrong understanding I would appreciate.
09-01-2016, 04:40 AM   #55
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,589
Thanks for those interesting and informative points Ulrich! .... I am sure your are correct in those thoughts about DSLR metering processes and the differences between different camera systems. I am sure we would all wish that our Pentax flash metering was a little more sophisticated and could pick the 'right' exposure more readily. However, we have what we have, and we have to work as best as possible with it.

Thanks for your kind positive feedback about the guide, I'm really pleased it has helped exactly as it was meant to. The most difficult balance to strike in the Guide was that between providing general flash knowledge and Pentax equipment specific information .... I tried to give as much general knowledge as I felt was necessary in order to get going and get nice results using the features that Pentax have provided.

There is expansion coming, as it already has (for example people wanted more information on the alternative radio systems), and as you know I will be adding more discussion about automatic flash modes. There is very little information available on what information exactly is used by the Pentax DSLRs to determine flash exposures and the balance between ambient and flash. I suspect you are right to surmise the amount of refinement provided by focus point and distance information is fairly basic.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
brain, button, camera, color, computer, dots, dress, exposure, exposure mode preference, fire, flash, iso, light, lighting, mode, noise, p-ttl, party, photo studio, post, preference for p-ttl, priority, question, services, strobist
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flash will not go into P-TTL mode siric Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 6 08-09-2015 02:34 PM
P-TTL or TTL best for ZX-L? OldChE Pentax Film SLR Discussion 9 08-05-2015 07:24 PM
P-TTL flash - Camera in Manual mode - ISO shouldn't change exposure right? Josť Ramos Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 5 05-29-2010 10:00 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:38 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top