Better Flash for a K50

Jerry62712 · 08-27-2016, 05:03 PM

I've been looking for a flash that will do second curtain, variable flash power and hopefully both off camera as well as on. The Bolt 510 will do it on camera, but not off.

The AF 540 II is reported here to have a price of under 400. Where is that at? Is it a good place?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

J

**Quartermaster James** · 08-27-2016, 05:07 PM

I think that was a sale price a while ago. For some time the 540 cost only a few dollars more than the 360. Hope that deal rolls around again sometime soon.

Adam · 08-27-2016, 07:53 PM

You could also go for the 360 II. It's a little weaker but still has all the same features. Otherwise, keep your eyes open for a deal on the 54 II. It's not on sale right now, but tends to be from time to time.

**clackers** · 08-28-2016, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Jerry62712

I've been looking for a flash that will do second curtain, variable flash power and hopefully both off camera as well as on. The Bolt 510 will do it on camera, but not off.

The AF 540 II is reported here to have a price of under 400. Where is that at? Is it a good place?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

J

Why not a second hand 540, Jerry?

elpolodiablo · 08-28-2016, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by clackers

Why not a second hand 540, Jerry?

You mean the original 540 right? Yes that's a viable option, quite a lot cheaper too, and I believe higher end Metz models also has the feature OP wanted

Jerry62712 · 08-30-2016, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Why not a second hand 540, Jerry?

I guess I'm leary of second hand because of potential problems that if they arise can be brushed off by the seller.

**clackers** · 08-30-2016, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Jerry62712

I guess I'm leary of second hand because of potential problems that if they arise can be brushed off by the seller.

Just trying to save you money, Jerry. Go the 360 II new, if you're still looking to save a dollar. It basically has all the same features as the 540 II but a lower guide number.

**RGlasel** · 08-30-2016, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by elpolodiablo

I believe higher end Metz models also has the feature OP wanted

The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar.

Jerry62712 · 08-31-2016, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar.

It's optical (Metz 52/58) for wireless I assume. Will it do second curtain wireless? The Bolt I returned would only work with one flash (no pre-flash) wireless so I couldn't use second curtain.

---------- Post added 08-31-16 at 01:38 PM ----------

Originally posted by RGlasel

The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar.

I see the 58 is being replaced by the 64 (about $80 more). Would it be better to get the newer model than the replaced one?

**RGlasel** · 08-31-2016, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Jerry62712

It's optical (Metz 52/58) for wireless I assume.

Metz supports wireless (optical) P-TTL in master, controller and slave modes. You can set Servo mode to synchronize with or without pre-flash as well (but you can't set a remote channel, it will fire from any light source).

Originally posted by Jerry62712

Will it do second curtain wireless?

I have the 52 AF-1 and second curtain, or rear synchronization can be set, but the manual says it will be cancelled or ignored if the camera doesn't support it or allow it (when red eye reduction is set, for instance). The manual doesn't specifically say second curtain sync won't work wirelessly and I've never really tested it. IIRC Metz had to reverse engineer the P-TTL protocol, but I haven't seen anything to indicate this is something the Metz can't do, while the Pentax models can. In other words, if rear curtain synchronization can be done with wireless P-TTL, the Metz models should be able to do it.

There are settings for contrast control that might only be possible with a Pentax flash, but your K-50 doesn't have the capability to change contrast control settings, so unless you plan to upgrade to a higher end model like the K-3, I don't know of anything a Pentax flash can do that the top Metz models can't. (Sorry, I just remembered that one of the Pentax models has a white AF assist light, whereas the Metz uses red, so it can't be used as a make shift flashlight. Or something like that, the only Pentax flash I have is an old AF200T, so I could be out to lunch).

**clackers** · 08-31-2016, 04:38 PM

This might be a test of your philosophy, Jerry!

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/24-photographic-equipment-sale/328775-sal...sh-pentax.html

mcgregni · 08-31-2016, 11:14 PM

The Metz AF64 model looks very compelling, and the prices have dropped a bit from their initial ' very high' .... There doesn't appear to be many people actually using one around here, or at least they must be very happy and have no concerns ....

Regarding the point just above about Contrast Control Sync' and the K50 .... As far as I understand it, this feature (and the wireless equivalent ' 'lighting ratios' ) are not camera dependent. ... The settings are made on the flashes directly and there's no camera based settings. Of course the body has to perform the metering, but I didn't think there were any that couldn't ? If this is wrong then I'd be glad to be corrected so I can update my Flash Guide.

**RGlasel** · 09-01-2016, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by mcgregni

about Contrast Control Sync' and the K50

On the K-30, you are stuck with 2:1 master flash:slave flash(es) if contrast control is set on an external flash; if the built-in flash is used the ratio is 2:1 external flash:built-in flash. You can fiddle with exposure compensation on some flashes (the Metz 52-AF1 for instance) in combination with flash exposure control in the camera, which can accomplish something similar to variable contrast control. Based on my limited experimentation, that only works to a point, then the camera's programming overcompensates P-TTL settings to make things "normal," usually with poor results.

**clackers** · 09-01-2016, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

On the K-30, you are stuck with 2:1 master flash:slave flash(es) if contrast control is set on an external flash; if the built-in flash is used the ratio is 2:1 external flash:built-in flash. You can fiddle with exposure compensation on some flashes (the Metz 52-AF1 for instance) in combination with flash exposure control in the camera, which can accomplish something similar to variable contrast control. Based on my limited experimentation, that only works to a point, then the camera's programming overcompensates P-TTL settings to make things "normal," usually with poor results.

The individual flash compensation settings add or subtract to the camera's P-TTL judgement, RGlasel ... at least they do on Pentax flashes. Can't speak for Metz or Sigma.

mcgregni · 09-02-2016, 02:07 AM

The idea that there are differences between the ' lower' and' higher' end Pentax cameras is new to me ... Regarding the 2:1 ratio between the slaves and the built-in Master, then that's the same on all the cameras and is automatic, AFAIK.

We have a relatively unsophisticated multiple wireless system really, that has to be accepted .... Still useful, but not on the level of Canikon which use multiple pre-flashes to precisely meter the output from each flash .... But think of the cost of all of that stuff, and frankly mere mortal photographers wouldn't be doing all that anyway.

We have pathetically little documentation and authoritive information on exactly what goes on with multiple flash P-TTL, but as I understand it the basic process depends on one-way communication from the camera .... Therefore the cameras do not know what the flashes are set to. The camera can only meter the whole scene and whole flash exposure, as one ... It sends the same power instruction to each flash, which is based on an overall brightness .... The actual result lighting-wise will depend on the guide number if each flash plus its distance from the subject ... So there probably would be a ' 'natural' contrast generated anyway.

Then we can set a ratio on the flashes which cuts the power on each proportionally, leaving the same overall brightness, but with more contrast (shadow on one side) .... The camera doesn't know anything about this. Further flash compensation settings have the same effect and are cumulative to the ratios ..... Again, for flash set compensations, the camera has nothing to do with it .... It sends out the same power instruction to all flashes, which receive it but then override it themselves based on their individual ratio and compensation settings.

That's a basic explanation of my understanding of it .... Does it sound reasonable? If there's any more specific knowledge around it would be great to hear it, because there is so little information published to help with this ....

08-27-2016, 05:03 PM	#1
Jerry62712 New Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 23	Better Flash for a K50 I've been looking for a flash that will do second curtain, variable flash power and hopefully both off camera as well as on. The Bolt 510 will do it on camera, but not off. The AF 540 II is reported here to have a price of under 400. Where is that at? Is it a good place? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. J

08-27-2016, 07:53 PM	#3
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	You could also go for the 360 II. It's a little weaker but still has all the same features. Otherwise, keep your eyes open for a deal on the 54 II. It's not on sale right now, but tends to be from time to time. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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08-27-2016, 05:07 PM	#2
Quartermaster James Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 653	I think that was a sale price a while ago. For some time the 540 cost only a few dollars more than the 360. Hope that deal rolls around again sometime soon.

08-28-2016, 01:30 AM	#4
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Jerry62712 I've been looking for a flash that will do second curtain, variable flash power and hopefully both off camera as well as on. The Bolt 510 will do it on camera, but not off. The AF 540 II is reported here to have a price of under 400. Where is that at? Is it a good place? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. J Why not a second hand 540, Jerry?

08-28-2016, 03:01 AM	#5
elpolodiablo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,637	Originally posted by clackers Why not a second hand 540, Jerry? You mean the original 540 right? Yes that's a viable option, quite a lot cheaper too, and I believe higher end Metz models also has the feature OP wanted

08-30-2016, 03:47 PM	#6
Jerry62712 New Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 23 Original Poster	Originally posted by clackers Why not a second hand 540, Jerry? I guess I'm leary of second hand because of potential problems that if they arise can be brushed off by the seller.

08-30-2016, 03:55 PM	#7
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Jerry62712 I guess I'm leary of second hand because of potential problems that if they arise can be brushed off by the seller. Just trying to save you money, Jerry. Go the 360 II new, if you're still looking to save a dollar. It basically has all the same features as the 540 II but a lower guide number.

08-30-2016, 06:45 PM	#8
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by elpolodiablo I believe higher end Metz models also has the feature OP wanted The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar.

08-31-2016, 12:40 PM	#9
Jerry62712 New Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 23 Original Poster	Originally posted by RGlasel The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar. It's optical (Metz 52/58) for wireless I assume. Will it do second curtain wireless? The Bolt I returned would only work with one flash (no pre-flash) wireless so I couldn't use second curtain. ---------- Post added 08-31-16 at 01:38 PM ---------- Originally posted by RGlasel The 52 and 58 Metz models certainly do and I think the 48 does as well. Able to work with P-TTL off camera using the built-in flash as a controller or with a P-TTL cable. Not WR like the latest Pentax 360 and 540, but a lot more flash power and ability per dollar. I see the 58 is being replaced by the 64 (about $80 more). Would it be better to get the newer model than the replaced one?

08-31-2016, 02:43 PM	#10
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by Jerry62712 It's optical (Metz 52/58) for wireless I assume. Metz supports wireless (optical) P-TTL in master, controller and slave modes. You can set Servo mode to synchronize with or without pre-flash as well (but you can't set a remote channel, it will fire from any light source). Originally posted by Jerry62712 Will it do second curtain wireless? I have the 52 AF-1 and second curtain, or rear synchronization can be set, but the manual says it will be cancelled or ignored if the camera doesn't support it or allow it (when red eye reduction is set, for instance). The manual doesn't specifically say second curtain sync won't work wirelessly and I've never really tested it. IIRC Metz had to reverse engineer the P-TTL protocol, but I haven't seen anything to indicate this is something the Metz can't do, while the Pentax models can. In other words, if rear curtain synchronization can be done with wireless P-TTL, the Metz models should be able to do it. There are settings for contrast control that might only be possible with a Pentax flash, but your K-50 doesn't have the capability to change contrast control settings, so unless you plan to upgrade to a higher end model like the K-3, I don't know of anything a Pentax flash can do that the top Metz models can't. (Sorry, I just remembered that one of the Pentax models has a white AF assist light, whereas the Metz uses red, so it can't be used as a make shift flashlight. Or something like that, the only Pentax flash I have is an old AF200T, so I could be out to lunch).

08-31-2016, 04:38 PM	#11
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	This might be a test of your philosophy, Jerry! https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/24-photographic-equipment-sale/328775-sal...sh-pentax.html

08-31-2016, 11:14 PM	#12
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	The Metz AF64 model looks very compelling, and the prices have dropped a bit from their initial ' very high' .... There doesn't appear to be many people actually using one around here, or at least they must be very happy and have no concerns .... Regarding the point just above about Contrast Control Sync' and the K50 .... As far as I understand it, this feature (and the wireless equivalent ' 'lighting ratios' ) are not camera dependent. ... The settings are made on the flashes directly and there's no camera based settings. Of course the body has to perform the metering, but I didn't think there were any that couldn't ? If this is wrong then I'd be glad to be corrected so I can update my Flash Guide.

09-01-2016, 06:38 AM	#13
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by mcgregni about Contrast Control Sync' and the K50 On the K-30, you are stuck with 2:1 master flash:slave flash(es) if contrast control is set on an external flash; if the built-in flash is used the ratio is 2:1 external flash:built-in flash. You can fiddle with exposure compensation on some flashes (the Metz 52-AF1 for instance) in combination with flash exposure control in the camera, which can accomplish something similar to variable contrast control. Based on my limited experimentation, that only works to a point, then the camera's programming overcompensates P-TTL settings to make things "normal," usually with poor results.

09-01-2016, 07:29 PM	#14
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by RGlasel On the K-30, you are stuck with 2:1 master flash:slave flash(es) if contrast control is set on an external flash; if the built-in flash is used the ratio is 2:1 external flash:built-in flash. You can fiddle with exposure compensation on some flashes (the Metz 52-AF1 for instance) in combination with flash exposure control in the camera, which can accomplish something similar to variable contrast control. Based on my limited experimentation, that only works to a point, then the camera's programming overcompensates P-TTL settings to make things "normal," usually with poor results. The individual flash compensation settings add or subtract to the camera's P-TTL judgement, RGlasel ... at least they do on Pentax flashes. Can't speak for Metz or Sigma.

09-02-2016, 02:07 AM	#15
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	The idea that there are differences between the ' lower' and' higher' end Pentax cameras is new to me ... Regarding the 2:1 ratio between the slaves and the built-in Master, then that's the same on all the cameras and is automatic, AFAIK. We have a relatively unsophisticated multiple wireless system really, that has to be accepted .... Still useful, but not on the level of Canikon which use multiple pre-flashes to precisely meter the output from each flash .... But think of the cost of all of that stuff, and frankly mere mortal photographers wouldn't be doing all that anyway. We have pathetically little documentation and authoritive information on exactly what goes on with multiple flash P-TTL, but as I understand it the basic process depends on one-way communication from the camera .... Therefore the cameras do not know what the flashes are set to. The camera can only meter the whole scene and whole flash exposure, as one ... It sends the same power instruction to each flash, which is based on an overall brightness .... The actual result lighting-wise will depend on the guide number if each flash plus its distance from the subject ... So there probably would be a ' 'natural' contrast generated anyway. Then we can set a ratio on the flashes which cuts the power on each proportionally, leaving the same overall brightness, but with more contrast (shadow on one side) .... The camera doesn't know anything about this. Further flash compensation settings have the same effect and are cumulative to the ratios ..... Again, for flash set compensations, the camera has nothing to do with it .... It sends out the same power instruction to all flashes, which receive it but then override it themselves based on their individual ratio and compensation settings. That's a basic explanation of my understanding of it .... Does it sound reasonable? If there's any more specific knowledge around it would be great to hear it, because there is so little information published to help with this ....