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11-15-2016, 01:09 PM   #31
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Thanks for those very interesting and informative points. Conceptualizing the combinations and theoretical available functions of mixed flash systems is one of the biggest challenges we all face, and the biggest stumbling block for the unwary, and it's often a process that occurs after getting the equipment all set up!

Regardless of the trigger types and technologies here, aren't we still facing a solid brick wall in that the strobe unit itself cannot operate in HSS mode with manual power control? Is it not that single issue that demands a Canon/Nikon/Sony camera to activate the essential TTL communication and exposure control? Nothing on the table here so far would seem to be able to emulate such a solution.

11-15-2016, 01:42 PM   #32
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The way I read the Phottix manuals seemed to imply there were two different uses of the term TTL within their system. One was TTL set on the strobe head which enabled bidirectional communication with the Phottix transmitter. This is the prerequisite for HSS. I wouldn't really call this TTL in the sense that it means through-the-lens; it seemed to be more about handing over control to the dedicated transmitter in this mode.

The other was use of the term was TTL on the transmitter, which enables TTL communication with the camera. There was nothing in the manual that stated that HSS would only work in this mode, so I would make the assumption that it could also work in manual mode.

It would be a horribly limiting system if it only allowed HSS with full TTL control at the camera as then you'd be constrained to whatever flash exposure compensation was available from your camera.

If I could be bothered to find some demo videos for the Indra500 using HSS I could probably confirm or deny this, but at this stage it's kind of moot because we're not sure that we're ever going to solve the OP's problem anyway.
11-15-2016, 02:44 PM   #33
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Yes, I can see the distinctions there ..... The first type of TTL you describe sounds very much like how a Cactus V6 takes control of a Pentax dedicated system flash.(which needs to be set to P-TTL mode, in order to be controlled in manual power steps). And the second way is the system of flash/camera integration with automatic exposure measuring. Presumably combining these two triggers and TTL protocols is what allows the Indra500 to behave like a dedicated speedlite/light.

But no manual HSS power control leaves only automatic TTL control, and that means exposure compensations. Perhaps the Phottox trigger adds extra stops of compensation on top of the camera, but in any case, even if not, then the normal camera FEC range of -2 to plus 1 stop (4 stop steps) is plenty enough for the majority of typical HSS scenarios, I'd think .....


But again, that brick wall .....no manual HSS on the light means only automatic TTL, with camera derived metering .... And I can't see any way that a 645z is going to be able to fill that roll .....

---------- Post added 15-11-16 at 21:52 ----------

But as you said, moot points? Interesting no doubt .... But have we succeeded in putting the OP completely off his light ....or his camera
11-15-2016, 07:45 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
More I see it that they actually make the equipment think they are not connected to any particular system.
How do you think a Pentax AF 540 FGZ II that is attached to a V6II receiver releases an HSS burst, if it "thinks" it is not connected to any particular system?

Enticing an HSS burst (i.e., not a regular pulse) from a flash at a certain power requires digital communication with a flash. Just look at the pin-layout for the Pentax flash hot-shoeand you'll notice that there are some pins for analogue TTL control, but only one digital pin. So any control must be achieved by "talking" the digital language of the flash.

In other words, your assumption is incorrect. A V6II receiver (transceiver in Rx mode) will trick an attached flash to believe that the flash is communicating with a camera of the system the flash supports. Just as a V6II transmitter (transceiver in Tx) mode, tricks a camera to believe that it is communicating with a system-dedicated flash.

There is absolutely no other way the whole system can work as it does (as it does effectively translate between different HSS systems, e.g., Pentax camera -> Nikon HSS flash).

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
However, how is the Indra500 to be tricked into thinking that its system dedicated radio trigger is connected to a Canon/Sony/Nikon camera?
If you are considering the case were a dedicated (in this case "Phottix") trigger exists, the Indra 500 does not need to be tricked at all. It communicates with its native trigger; no trickery required.

The challenge is only to make the Phottix trigger believe it is talking to a camera system it supports. Chances are that the V6II can do this, unless the Phottix trigger for some reason requires some parts of the system protocol that isn't strictly required to perform HSS and the V6II does not support it. There are many examples where native triggers from Profoto, Godox, or Jinbei, etc. work on a V6II just fine.

There is another scenario for studio strobes, of course, where no native trigger is present. In this case the only chance to still get HSS is
  1. the strobe has an ISO hot-shoe connector and supports one of the V6II-supported flash systems (yes, this exists )
  2. the strobe can be put into HSS mode manually. Godox strobes/flashes have this ability.
  3. instead of HSS the next best thing, HyperSync, is used. In this case, the strobe just needs the ability to put out pulses longer than ~1/125s, or so. Only certain power levels, for which this condition is met, will then be available.



Last edited by Class A; 11-15-2016 at 07:51 PM.
11-16-2016, 04:02 AM   #35
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Ok, thanks, I see what you mean , and Paulster also, about making the flash "believe" it's connected to a specific camera system.... That is the V6II's trick, the HSS enabling aspect, as opposed to dumber generic manual triggering.

Looking at all the possibilities and issues discussed here so far, I'm happy to reach a conclusion that this particular studio strobe is not compatible with Pentax for radio HSS working .....
11-16-2016, 09:14 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Looking at all the possibilities and issues discussed here so far, I'm happy to reach a conclusion that this particular studio strobe is not compatible with Pentax for radio HSS working .....
We don't have enough information to make that assumption yet. The OP hasn't told us whether he has the Phottix Odin II transmitter. If he does, and it doesn't work with the V6 II as an HSS-enabler then there's something in the Phottix system protocols that causes a problem with Pentax. If he doesn't have the Phottix transmitter then the reason he can't get HSS working at the moment is largely because he simply doesn't have a means of switching the strobe into that mode.
11-16-2016, 10:28 AM   #37
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Well I'm calling a halt to all logical thinking and conceptualizing now. I'm basing it on pure intuition and superstition

Anyway, the OP doesn't seem to be around anymore. Probably he's already ditched Pentax and has gone Sony FF!

11-16-2016, 03:56 PM   #38
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Not been on this forum in a while and VERY excited to see the prospect of HSS with my 645z and godox/elinchrom strobes!

Before I go out and buy a V6ii would someone mind confirming that I can piggyback an EL sky port plus HS or Godox trigger on top of a V6ii on the 645z and HSS will be enabled as if I'm using one of my Nikon cameras?
11-16-2016, 04:05 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by psenior1 Quote
Before I go out and buy a V6ii would someone mind confirming that I can piggyback an EL sky port plus HS or Godox trigger on top of a V6ii on the 645z and HSS will be enabled as if I'm using one of my Nikon cameras?
Off-topic for this thread, but this - Fuji X-T2 with Elinchrom Skyport-Plus HS (Canon Version) - Cactus Community - suggests that at least the Canon version of the Skyport Plus works stacked on a V6 II to get HSS working. There's no reason why this shouldn't also work on the 645Z if it works on the Fuji. I'm guessing you have the Nikon version though, so it's possible the behaviour could be different, but the Canon results are encouraging.
11-17-2016, 07:02 AM   #40
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Cactus have posted a setup image for the K-3 II and Godox AD600 showing that with this particular strobe, HSS works even without a native trigger being involved.

11-17-2016, 10:28 AM   #41
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So I have picked up a V6ii today, on the settings below the 645z will fire the flash beyond the normal max sync speed, but I can only get a clean sync with it at 1/80th or less. Anything above 1/125th gives a completely black frame.

I've tested the same setup minus the V6ii on a Nikon camera and the HSS works fine and I've updated the firmware on both the V6ii and EL Skyport HS.

Using - 645z, V6ii with EL Skyport HSS mounted on top, Quadra Hybrid strobe.

I've tried various V6ii settings, but was hoping it would be as straightforward as Camera - Pentax, Flash - Nikon, Flash Profile - Nikon Auto.

I'd really appreciate any help, I shoot a lot of location work with the 645z and the quadra's and it would be awesome not to be limited to the 125th sec sync speed.

I do have the Godox Ad360 with HSS and the X1n triggers, I only tried these briefly but couldn't get them to fire at all, but its really the Quadra 's I'm most interested in.
11-17-2016, 06:38 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by psenior1 Quote
I've tried various V6ii settings, but was hoping it would be as straightforward as Camera - Pentax, Flash - Nikon, Flash Profile - Nikon Auto.
It should be that easy, provided that the Skyport HS trigger is made for Nikon.
Have you tried letting the V6II auto-detect the flash system?
If the V6II does not detect a Nikon "flash" (when the Skyport HS trigger is mounted) then that may mean that there is some incompatibility.

I'd try some of the existing flash profiles (for Nikon) and/or other flash system, just to see whether it makes a difference. If you are unlucky, the Skyport HS for Nikon won't work in the stacked approach (even though I think I've read somewhere that the Canon version does). It may still work on a V6II receiver in the style I posted about earlier (although I doubt it).

Also, try experimenting with the ordering of turning devices on. Make sure the V6II is the last to be turned on so that it can detect the other devices. Does the green LED light on the V6II turn on when you use fast shutter speeds?

BTW, what is the firmware version on the V6II? If you have successfully upgraded to V1.1.005 then you should be able to verify that in the V6II "Preferences".

QuoteOriginally posted by psenior1 Quote
I do have the Godox Ad360 with HSS and the X1n triggers, I only tried these briefly but couldn't get them to fire at all, but its really the Quadra 's I'm most interested in.
Member fwbigd has the Godox AD360 running with the V6II. However, he is using a Godox XT-16 trigger on top of the V6II, instead of an X1n. That may make a difference.

Have you set the flash system to "Nikon" for the X1n?

Or, again, try to let the V6II auto-detect the flash system for the X1n and see whether it comes up with "Nikon".
11-18-2016, 06:56 AM   #43
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Ok, so little update...Went out to my local store who I do a lot of set up videos with and we played around with all the different triggers on the Cactus V6II and the 645z. The phottix system was the only one I couldn't get HSS to work with. Not sure why but even putting the phottix odin on top would allow it to be adjusted at all. we got pro foto, bowens canon everything else worked fine. Just not Phottix. But, I also took in my backup lights I keep in my studio, the flashpoint rovelight 600B. Put their trigger on top of the cactus and bam! HSS on the 645z.....all the way up to 1/4000. So, I love the phottix, it is amazing and I can put it in my bag with my camera equipment no problem. Plus, i can get it to work with the flashes I have left over from my sony days. So, on the times when I need HSS, I can take out the Roverlights and the rest use the phottix. Thanks everyone for all the input and help....

As far as Good..the store didn't have those so I couldn't test them.

---------- Post added 11-18-16 at 08:00 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Well I'm calling a halt to all logical thinking and conceptualizing now. I'm basing it on pure intuition and superstition

Anyway, the OP doesn't seem to be around anymore. Probably he's already ditched Pentax and has gone Sony FF!
You're very quick to assume I ditched Pentax. I actually moved from Sony a7rii to the 645Z....So I doubt I'd be moving back
11-18-2016, 07:12 AM   #44
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That was just my little joke ...I didn't really think you'd leave Pentax just for a dumb studio light! (although I do appreciate that it's frustration when it was a light that you enjoyed using).

It does seem that the TTL integration aspects of the system you have there are the stumbling block, at least that's how I see things. I hope the discussion and all the questions have been helpful in general in pinning down what technical aspects are central to radio trigger and flash system compatibilities and how we can expect things to work together, or not.
11-18-2016, 07:46 PM   #45
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Glad you were able to figure things out. Always nice to be able to use alternative equipment to see which part is the failing piece in a chain.

QuoteOriginally posted by MDR Foto Quote
So, I love the phottix, it is amazing and I can put it in my bag with my camera equipment no problem.
Is it the trigger you like so much or the Indra500, or both?

You mentioned how much you liked the Indra500 before so I got curious. After all, most strobes are very similar in specs and it isn't that easy to make a pick.

I have read that the Indra500 have colour consistency issues (in TTL mode) and their modeling light is too weak to be useful. So what makes them "amazing" in your view?
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