[xunwp]

It might be the slowness of P-TTL that is throwing a spanner in the works.

Try choosing manual mode on the Metz 52 AF-1, i.e., use it as a dumb flash. The camera should then fire with uninhibited speed. Just make sure to not exceed the sync-speed (1/180s) with your shutter speed.

EDIT: Just noticed that you wrote you already tried "manual" mode on the flash. Possibly, the Metz 52 AF-1 never presents itself as a dumb flash to the camera. Try switching everything off, then turn on the flash (in manual mode) and finally turn on the camera. If this does not make a difference then either there is a different reason for the delay (e.g., lens correction turned on) or you will have to insulate the data communication pin on the hot-shoe in order to avoid smart communication between camera and flash.

I did try with manual mode on the Metz flash, and all the other function off on the camera, including lens correction. I will try as you suggested, to restart both the flash and camera or block the communication between them.

Thanks for your kindly advice!

Well, only with the digital contact covered can I shoot at Hi speed continuous shoot. You are right. It seems that the Metz is too smart to have a pure manual mode. Even on M mode, all the parameters except zoom and output power are received from the camera and cannot be manually set. Metz should add it a fully manual mode.
Thank you!

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Last edited by xunwp; 01-18-2017 at 06:38 AM.

[Class A]

Metz should add it a fully manual mode.
Thank you!

No worries.

I did not expect the Metz to be so non-cooperative but I figured that was the only logical alternative left.

I hope Metz have not lost their way under the new ownership. There have been a number of developments that I'm not too impressed by. Let's hope theses are not symptoms of a general shift in direction of the brand.

[xunwp]

No worries.

I did not expect the Metz to be so non-cooperative but I figured that was the only logical alternative left.

I hope Metz have not lost their way under the new ownership. There have been a number of developments that I'm not too impressed by. Let's hope theses are not symptoms of a general shift in direction of the brand.

Yes, I have informed Metz this problem on their website. I hope to get a reply, especially a reply with a firmware update to solve this problem.

[Doundounba]

Just a couple of updates:

• Trying to shoot wireless with the RF-603Nii, the YN560-iii (at 1/32) and PB-960 at Continuous High on K-3: no dice. Flash only fires on very first frame. All black after that. (That is not the case when the flash is on-camera.)
• Shooting wireless with the RF-603Nii, the YN560-iii (at 1/32) and PB-960 at Continuous Medium on K-3: works. Only caveat is that the flash always misses the second frame in a burst. (Second frame is not black when the flash is on-camera.)
• Shooting high magnification handheld stacks at Continuous Medium (~4.5fps) is still very difficult. Today I tried a combo that gives around 2.1-3:1 magnification and over quite many attempts I always had gaps in focus coverage shooting 8-12 shot stacks of a penny. I might need to try various lens combos to see if some give a tad more DoF. I'm shooting more opened than when I do single frames, but not that much (between one and two stops)...
• The slow boat from China is very slow. Still waiting on cables so I can shoot off-camera but wired. Once I get those I will try Continuous High.

[UncleVanya]

Just a couple of updates:

• Trying to shoot wireless with the RF-603Nii, the YN560-iii (at 1/32) and PB-960 at Continuous High on K-3: no dice. Flash only fires on very first frame. All black after that. (That is not the case when the flash is on-camera.)
• Shooting wireless with the RF-603Nii, the YN560-iii (at 1/32) and PB-960 at Continuous Medium on K-3: works. Only caveat is that the flash always misses the second frame in a burst. (Second frame is not black when the flash is on-camera.)
• Shooting high magnification handheld stacks at Continuous Medium (~4.5fps) is still very difficult. Today I tried a combo that gives around 2.1-3:1 magnification and over quite many attempts I always had gaps in focus coverage shooting 8-12 shot stacks of a penny. I might need to try various lens combos to see if some give a tad more DoF. I'm shooting more opened than when I do single frames, but not that much (between one and two stops)...
• The slow boat from China is very slow. Still waiting on cables so I can shoot off-camera but wired. Once I get those I will try Continuous High.

I would imagine the cactus sequential flash option (stepping through groups sequentially) might work here if you think the recycle time is the problem.

[Doundounba]

I would imagine the cactus sequential flash option (stepping through groups sequentially) might work here if you think the recycle time is the problem.

I'm guessing you haven't been following upthread, because I've already stated I won't be shooting multiple flashes, and I'll add that currently I don't plan on switching to Cactus, though test results involving burst testing Cactus flashes in similar conditions to what I'm doing here are of course welcome in the thread.

I'm posting the above because my (PC sync to 2.5mm) cables to are taking their sweet time arriving, so I can't shoot the Godox V850ii off-camera just yet. But I want to start shooting! So I thought I'd test out bursts with the Yongnyo YN560-III and the RF603NII wireless transmitter (plus the external battery pack), and get some practice shooting handheld focus stacks. As written above, it turns out wireless triggering doesn't work at all at Continuous High but works decently at Continuous Medium, though losing the second frame of every burst is pretty annoying.

Just to give folks an idea, to practice I am shooting an old Canadian penny (about 19mm in diameter). The following shot is a handheld, 10-shot focus stack:




This is my best result of the day. If you really scrutinize it, the sharpness isn't even, though there are no super obvious gaps in focus coverage... I'm not quite happy with this just yet.

[jake14mw]

Very interesting picture of the penny!

[UncleVanya]

I'm guessing you haven't been following upthread, because I've already stated I won't be shooting multiple flashes, and I'll add that currently I don't plan on switching to Cactus, though test results involving burst testing Cactus flashes in similar conditions to what I'm doing here are of course welcome in the thread.

I'm posting the above because my (PC sync to 2.5mm) cables to are taking their sweet time arriving, so I can't shoot the Godox V850ii off-camera just yet. But I want to start shooting! So I thought I'd test out bursts with the Yongnyo YN560-III and the RF603NII wireless transmitter (plus the external battery pack), and get some practice shooting handheld focus stacks. As written above, it turns out wireless triggering doesn't work at all at Continuous High but works decently at Continuous Medium, though losing the second frame of every burst is pretty annoying.

Just to give folks an idea, to practice I am shooting an old Canadian penny (about 19mm in diameter). The following shot is a handheld, 10-shot focus stack:




This is my best result of the day. If you really scrutinize it, the sharpness isn't even, though there are no super obvious gaps in focus coverage... I'm not quite happy with this just yet.

Actually I have, but I forgot the details. To be clear, at this point, you suspect the wireless function is adding delay rather than flash recycle slowing the bursts since the flash works faster from the hot shoe?

Btw I'm impressed by the current results, I can't wait to see the final outcome.

[Doundounba]

[...]To be clear, at this point, you suspect the wireless function is adding delay rather than flash recycle slowing the bursts since the flash works faster from the hot shoe?

Yes, in the post above I reported on testing what is the effect of introducing wireless triggering. I should probably have stated that.

Shooting 1/32 with the PB-960 power pack (and the DB-02!) is a walk in the park for the flash. With the flash on-camera, I can fire 20-frame volleys at Continuous High all day and not miss a single frame. But what I am seeing is that if I introduce the RF603Nii and trigger the flash wirelessly, then all of a sudden (at Continuous High) the flash fires only on the very first frame, and all subsequent frames are black. The flash fires only once. If I turn the K-3 down to Continuous Medium (even more of a breeze with the flash on-camera), then wireless triggering works OK but for some reason the flash is never triggered on the second frame in a continuous volley. All other frames are OK.

I don't know that I'd describe this as "delay", but it looks like there's a maximum frame rate for wireless triggering using the RF603Nii. I don't have a 560-TX to compare, BTW. Nor do I (yet) have any Godox wireless transmitters to test the V850ii. I'd be curious to know if Cactus wireless triggers can fire an RF60 at 8.3fps...

Btw I'm impressed by the current results, I can't wait to see the final outcome.

Thanks! The goal is to shoot better insect portraits using this technique. Shooting at Continuous Low (the best I could do with an unassisted YN560-III), it's just exceedingly difficult to achieve good results...

[jake14mw]

But what I am seeing is that if I introduce the RF603Nii and trigger the flash wirelessly, then all of a sudden (at Continuous High) the flash fires only on the very first frame, and all subsequent frames are black. The flash fires only once.

Interesting. I just tried this with my K-5ii. Specs say the fps is 7, which is in between the H and M on your K-3. YN-560iii, triggered by RF603Nii. First try, on 1/16 power, fired every time, no problem. Then I realized my focus was in AF-C, which was probably only 5fps, changed it to manual, and got the same thing you did. Only fired on the first pic. Same thing on the second try. Then I turned the RF603 off and turned it back on again. Now, I cannot recreate it again, fires every time. Tried the YN560-TX, and that also fires it every time.

Before I tried it, I thought it was due to the fact of how close the trigger and receiver was in your setup. That can definitely cause problems between many triggers and receivers. That did not make a difference in my quick test though. So, if I had to guess, I would say that the RF603 can only handle around 7fps. How many fps do you need? Is there a setting that could be changed in your K-3 to bring the High setting functioning at around 7fps? You must be shooting in Manual focus so that is not an option I guess. Some other settings like highlight correction slow it down. Do you shoot jpgs?

As you said though, this is just a temporary issue for you until you get your flash cord, which is much better than using radio triggers anyway.

[Doundounba]

BTW, I just realized that the problem with the second frame in a volley always being black at Continuous Medium (wirelessly triggering the YN560-iii) only happens in Liveview mode. When you shoot in Liveview, the camera first fires three very fast frames, then slows down. But if you fire from the viewfinder, the frames are evenly spaced right from the beginning and then no frame is missed by the flash.

Very interesting picture of the penny!

Thanks!

Interesting. I just tried this with my K-5ii. Specs say the fps is 7, which is in between the H and M on your K-3. YN-560iii, triggered by RF603Nii. First try, on 1/16 power, fired every time, no problem. Then I realized my focus was in AF-C, which was probably only 5fps, changed it to manual, and got the same thing you did. Only fired on the first pic. Same thing on the second try. Then I turned the RF603 off and turned it back on again. Now, I cannot recreate it again, fires every time. Tried the YN560-TX, and that also fires it every time.

That's good to know! Looks like 7fps is marginal, since you did see the problem a couple of times, at least with the RF603Nii.

Before I tried it, I thought it was due to the fact of how close the trigger and receiver was in your setup. That can definitely cause problems between many triggers and receivers.

Do you mean that you can have problems if they're too close? Because the distance for me is very small...

So, if I had to guess, I would say that the RF603 can only handle around 7fps.

That would be my guess too.

How many fps do you need?

Open question, and another reason for the tests. There are many things to consider. The key is I need to insure that there is sufficient overlap between zones of focus to produce a really sharp stack. This depends on FPS, but also the speed at which I can move, and the DoF produced by the lens combo I am using. Also, when shooting high magnification macro setups that involve reversed lenses, closing down the reversed lens gives slightly more DoF, but the more you close, the harder it becomes to find and focus on the critter, as even the liveview screen goes dark. I also need to stay aware of what the flash can do, based on the power I am asking for. I think shooting higher FPS should help both in allowing more open shooting with lower flash power, and requiring less high precision control of my own movements to avoid gaps. Clearly though, Continuous Medium with 1/32 flash power (and a reversed lens at F/11) is still marginal for me.

As you said though, this is just a temporary issue for you until you get your flash cord, which is much better than using radio triggers anyway.

Yes, I am testing options, but the plan is to eventually fire either off-camera with a cord, or even on-camera with a custom diffuser...

[UncleVanya]

Many wireless triggers have some reports of the units having difficulty when too close to each other. RF engineering is weird.

Some triggers like the cactus have a low power setting to help in short distance scenarios.

[bdery]

But you still have some V850s and a K-3, right? Would it be possible to pop one of them on the K-3, set it to 1/8, the camera to Continuous High, and fire a couple of two second volleys? How many frames before the first black one in each volley?

Later is better then never. My K-3 just came back, and I tested with a Godox V850 and a Neewer TT850 (the exact same flash, rebranded). In both cases, I used fresh batteries for the flashes and camera.

Camera was set to MF, M mode, shutter speed 1/125. Flashes were set to 1/8.

I got the first black frame after 8 good exposures, but then I got 13 good exposures before another black frame.

This got me thinking. I used the TEST button on the flashes to see if the flash could fire as fast as I could press the button (slower than 8 fps to be sure). The flash never missed a beat when pressing TEST. I did the same test at 1/4 +2/3 stop (to get close to 1/2) and got the same results.

I also tested with the K-3 in burst mode medium speed, and never missed a frame.

I'm guessing the problem is more a matter of timing, or triggering, than of the flash's capacity itself. Either the camera cannot trigger the flash that fast, or there are timing issues between the two (say, a voltage ramp that has not yet returned to zero or something like that).

I hope this helps.

[Doundounba]

Many wireless triggers have some reports of the units having difficulty when too close to each other. RF engineering is weird.

I did not know that. Weird indeed!

Later is better then never. My K-3 just came back, and I tested with a Godox V850 and a Neewer TT850 (the exact same flash, rebranded). In both cases, I used fresh batteries for the flashes and camera. Camera was set to MF, M mode, shutter speed 1/125. Flashes were set to 1/8. I got the first black frame after 8 good exposures, but then I got 13 good exposures before another black frame.

Thanks for testing it! As you say, better late than never.

BTW, do you mean that you did it twice and got 8 FBFBF the first time and 13 the second? Or do you mean that you kept firing after the first black frame and got 13 more shots in before a second black frame during a single 23-shot burst? The former is what I tested, the later I didn't check. 8 FBFBF is what I got at 1/8-0.3eV (I got 16 FBFBF at 1/8-0.7eV), so our two flashes are probably within shouting distance of each other, IMHO. I would tend to attribute variability to actual differences in flash output (ie about 0.3 eV) from my sample to yours.

Also, I finally got the chance to test my setup "in the field" yesterday. Well, on my front porch with a real subject anyway. We had some light snow and I had about 30 minutes to try to get something. I shot the Yongnuo YN560-iii at 1/8th with the PB-960 and the K-3 at Continuous Medium. I got seven different stack attempts of the two snowflakes below, and this was my favorite:




It's a seven-shot focus stack, and it's actually missing the bottom of the flake on the right. Maybe it needed eight or nine exposures... Some of the other stacks had the whole flake in focus, but this one had better contrast with the background because of slight changes in the shooting angle from one stack to the other.

[UncleVanya]

Re: close distance triggers

Cactus has a setting to select low power mode to reduce problems when the units are close together. This is on the v6 series at least. Not sure about other models.