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12-18-2016, 02:55 AM   #16
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Ah yes, things can all become rather. ....testing.

If I raised a laugh then that's all that was intended

My main interest here is really about the actual practical impact on photos. Am I right to believe that this is only an issue when at or very near to the mac sync speed?

It sounds like an ideal reason for having another custom feature on our new cameras....a fine timing control for the flash sync signal! If we knew the delay of our triggers we could custom program that time value as a delay from the camera ....

12-18-2016, 03:41 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
My main interest here is really about the actual practical impact on photos.
Well, as I tried to explain earlier the practical impact on photos of trigger latency is pretty much zero (provided the triggers aren't terrible and produce black bars near or at the sync-speed).

You'll find it extremely difficult to find any practical difference between the triggers looked at by Andy888 with respect to trigger latency. There are many relevant differences in terms of features, usability, etc., but the small differences in latency only have an extremely minor effect on what percentage of the flash's contribution will be cut off at a given shutter speed. But even that effect is minute and only occurs under certain circumstances (very slow flash discharge and comparatively fast shutter speeds).

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Am I right to believe that this is only an issue when at or very near to the mac sync speed?
When shutter speeds become longer, the differences that were minute before will become non-existent.

The only effect caused by differing trigger latencies will then be when the flash occurs with respect to the frame exposure timing. The extreme case is of course second-curtain sync when the position of the flash occurrence with respect to the frame exposure is moved as late as possible in the exposure window. BTW, the delay feature of the V6II allows one to determine the position, e.g., move it to the middle, should one want equally long lead-in and lead-out blur of a moving subject. I wonder whether any of the other triggers support that and whether Andy888 will include such features in the comparison...

But going back to the question: All latencies are so low that the frame timing question boils down to "at the start of the frame exposure" and I think one will be very hard pressed to detect a difference in real photos (as the timing difference is so small).

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
It sounds like an ideal reason for having another custom feature on our new cameras....a fine timing control for the flash sync signal!
Well, that would be cool, but first, it is not really needed (unless you want to make something like an RF-602 work at the sync-speed) and second, it will never happen.

Last edited by Class A; 12-18-2016 at 03:52 AM.
12-18-2016, 04:03 AM   #18
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Well on the K1 they've given us a custom 'x-sync' setting, and no one saw that coming, as far as I know .....

That raises of course my next question ... What is the practical purpose of setting a custom x-sync speed?
12-18-2016, 05:18 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
That raises of course my next question ... What is the practical purpose of setting a custom x-sync speed?
I don't think I have a good answer to that. The highest sync-speed option should give one all the options.

The only reason I can think of for supporting 1/180s next to 1/200s is to maintain backward-compatibility with some other equipment that has the 1/180s sync-speed hard-wired and relies on the camera to switch to HSS beyond that.

However, that does not explain why the K-1 has further options like 1/125s. Beats me. Hope someone else can contribute.

12-22-2016, 01:26 AM   #20
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I have almost finished the UI review of the 3 above.

None satisfied. None over 4 stars for me.
12-24-2016, 07:53 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I agree that during manual control there should ideally be no pre-flash.

I don't care about the impact on light meters because I don't use them (professionals like David Hobby don't use light meters either), but I care about the delay introduced by the pre-flash and the battery life that it impacts on.

During beta testing the V6II, I provided feedback to Cactus stating that there should be a mode in which one can manually control a flash that does not involve a pre-flash, even if it only works for shutter speeds that do not exceed the sync-speed. I was told that due to technical reasons this would not be possible. Cactus told me that many modern flashes make the pre-flash non-optional.

So how does the R930 do it?

The R930 is first and foremost a P-TTL trigger, right?
So normally, there is a pre-flash, correct?

Now the R930 also supports manual remote control, but how can it prevent the pre-flash from occurring in this case?

Does the R930 still imply a delay, but just manages to not issue a pre-flash?
Does this work for all flash models (e.g., Pentax AF 540 FGZ II)?

Are we talking about the same situation, that is remotely controlling the power level via the camera-mounted transmitter?

Of course, if one puts a flash into manual mode than even a V6II can trigger it without causing a pre-flash. But that would mean no remote power-level control.

Based on Cactus' reply, I was under the assumption that it is technically not possible to remotely control the power level of a modern flash and avoid the pre-flash at the same time. Were Cactus wrong in their response?


Well, all you are showing here is that your light meter got confused by the pre-flash.

Your use of "Fake Manual" makes it sound as if the power levels are not right and your images appear to provide support for that. However, you clearly did use different manual flash power settings for those different images, so you are not showing any difference in "fake" vs "real" output, you are just showing that light meters cannot cope with pre-flashes.
I can confirm the V2II is fake Manual.

Fake is not the end. unreliable, some misfire , OR, power out of control,making the "advanced dial and LCD" useless.

I heard enough about this V6II as "Manual is advanced", and debates.

So I would like to have that for a "research".

The outcome is unexpected. disappointed.
12-24-2016, 08:13 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy888 Quote
I can confirm the V2II is fake Manual.

Fake is not the end. unreliable, some misfire , OR, power out of control,making the "advanced dial and LCD" useless.

I heard enough about this V6II as "Manual is advanced", and debates.

So I would like to have that for a "research".

The outcome is unexpected. disappointed.
(Rolls eyes)

If you have proof, Andy, let's see it.

12-24-2016, 08:26 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
(Rolls eyes)

If you have proof, Andy, let's see it.
A small piece of video has been uploaded.


Last edited by andy888; 12-25-2016 at 05:21 PM.
12-25-2016, 09:30 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Are you aware of any cameras with a focal plane sync speed higher than 1/320s?

In the past, there were some models that used an electronic shutter to achieve higher sync-speeds but I understand the combination of electronic shutter and flash is not a good idea.
Unrelated, but according to the internet, Olympus OM-D E-M1 seems to have its actual sync speed between 1/400 and 1/500. The official speed is at 1/320 though.
12-27-2016, 07:11 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
All these detailed technical questions.
Sounds like it may be time for you to invest in a R930 pair [for science].
Whoo, I don't think class A will. He seems very skillful commenting things he never use and called for , FAIR.

BTW, I don't think acon should reverse engine the V62, which is too buggy.

So I decide to sell out the V62 and keep the R930. because I just can't bare using so many triggers to do the same thing.

Although the V62 seems with a lot more control while the R930 with quite simple control. I don't think I can give up TTL and do painful manual always with camera M. and real manual and optical capability and many many lively functions to exchange for a hard dial and LCD. I have enough of them.

More over, when it comes to my 3 pentax flashes , I can't imagine using this 4 big guys, I prefer using a acon receiver and walk to others, which set as optical slave. with radio optical mix.
12-27-2016, 05:18 PM   #26
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I enjoy some friendly banter on the forums, a bit of competitiveness, eg such as the 'P-TTL vs Manual' debates ..... But this Acon vs Cactus / Andy vs ClassA one is surely well spent now, and perhaps of no relevance even?

I mean, the user case for each of these trigger systems is really very very different, and as such they hardly even compete with each other, as I se it .....

The Cactus strength is with multi-flash Manual group control, and the interface supports this, with the ability to utilise peoples odd automatic flashes alongside Cactuses' own RF60, which has the advantage of it's built-in transceiver.... plus the V6II brings HSS and flash zoom as well.

The Acon is essentially a 'radio extension cord signal' ....a transmission of the data relayed through a 'P-TTL' cable. Used simply in this way with a single flash it is easy and effective, and is used as a more versatile and longer distance option for a single off -camera flash to provide HSS output (eg as Clackers uses it). But its practically for multi-flash P-TTL use seems to be in the experimental category for now, and the interface does not appear to support this well, nor manual group control .... At least that is a fair impression gained from users posts here. .....

So, really entirely different products for very different purposes, and not true competitors at all.
12-27-2016, 05:40 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I enjoy some friendly banter on the forums, a bit of competitiveness, eg such as the 'P-TTL vs Manual' debates ..... But this Acon vs Cactus / Andy vs ClassA one is surely well spent now, and perhaps of no relevance even?

I mean, the user case for each of these trigger systems is really very very different, and as such they hardly even compete with each other, as I se it .....

The Cactus strength is with multi-flash Manual group control, and the interface supports this, with the ability to utilise peoples odd automatic flashes alongside Cactuses' own RF60, which has the advantage of it's built-in transceiver.... plus the V6II brings HSS and flash zoom as well.

The Acon is essentially a 'radio extension cord signal' ....a transmission of the data relayed through a 'P-TTL' cable. Used simply in this way with a single flash it is easy and effective, and is used as a more versatile and longer distance option for a single off -camera flash to provide HSS output (eg as Clackers uses it). But its practically for multi-flash P-TTL use seems to be in the experimental category for now, and the interface does not appear to support this well, nor manual group control .... At least that is a fair impression gained from users posts here. .....

So, really entirely different products for very different purposes, and not true competitors at all.
Didn't you see my video and report? It supports group and manual. and real manual. better than the fake manual of V62.
12-27-2016, 08:54 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I enjoy some friendly banter on the forums, a bit of competitiveness, eg such as the 'P-TTL vs Manual' debates ..... But this Acon vs Cactus / Andy vs ClassA one is surely well spent now, and perhaps of no relevance even?

I mean, the user case for each of these trigger systems is really very very different, and as such they hardly even compete with each other, as I se it .....

The Cactus strength is with multi-flash Manual group control, and the interface supports this, with the ability to utilise peoples odd automatic flashes alongside Cactuses' own RF60, which has the advantage of it's built-in transceiver.... plus the V6II brings HSS and flash zoom as well.

The Acon is essentially a 'radio extension cord signal' ....a transmission of the data relayed through a 'P-TTL' cable. Used simply in this way with a single flash it is easy and effective, and is used as a more versatile and longer distance option for a single off -camera flash to provide HSS output (eg as Clackers uses it). But its practically for multi-flash P-TTL use seems to be in the experimental category for now, and the interface does not appear to support this well, nor manual group control .... At least that is a fair impression gained from users posts here. .....

So, really entirely different products for very different purposes, and not true competitors at all.
From my usage I find the 930 cover the 62, and provide TTL and optical and real manual. that is why I abandon 62.
12-28-2016, 04:45 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I mean, the user case for each of these trigger systems is really very very different, and as such they hardly even compete with each other, as I se it ...
I see it like that as well and that could be the end of the debate.

However, certain individuals
  1. are of the opinion that their trigger does it all and is better at everything, despite the obvious shortcomings.
  2. keep on badmouthing competitor products, making claims that have nothing to do with reality.
I don't enjoy posting response to said individual's invalid claims, but I won't sit here and let someone write nonsense whether it is about Pentax, Sigma, or Cactus. I know that the products from these companies work and if someone makes absurd claims to the contrary, I will counter them. I hope you are OK with that.
12-28-2016, 06:59 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy888 Quote
He seems very skillful commenting things he never use and called for , FAIR.
You cannot stop attacking me (with unfounded allegations), can you?

Anyhow, attacks on me are just annoying to me and show poor form on your part but your attacks on competitor products may actually mislead people so I'll comment on them:

Alleged "Fake Manual": There is nothing fake about the manual levels produced by a V6II. All that you demonstrated is that some antiquated lightmeter technology is unable to take a pre-flash into account. Even the cheapest Yongnuo flashes manage to suppress pre-flashes, if so instructed. In any event, I don't know many people using lightmeters. They just give you a technically correct exposure starting point anyhow. Any artistic choices will mean subsequent tweaking. It doesn't take much longer to start with an educated guess and tweak from there. There are a few very isolated use cases for light meters but they are hardly relevant for the majority of flash users.

Lack of "Ready" signal: All decent flashes allow one to set them up so that they emit a beep when they have completely recycled. I don't know of any strobist who is asking for more than that. Yes, it would be nice if the camera could show in the viewfinder whether the flash is ready to fire again, but which flash system shows this ready signal after the slowest of a number of flashes has recycled? Does a system like that exist? Did the lack of such an "in viewfinder" indicator ever stop anyone using flashes successfully? A simple trick is to just not spray and pray like a madman when using flashes.

Alleged Lack of Reliability: With some of your videos it is hard to tell what you are trying to convey with them because they are very blurry and have no sound. But it appears a couple of your videos are trying to provide proof that the V6II is unreliable. Fact is, either you are incapable or unwilling to set up your units correctly, or you have defective units. The reliability you demonstrate is atrocious and it is clear as day that if the V6II actually performed like this that Cactus wouldn't be able to sell even one unit. Fact is, I can fire with a V6II from LiveView (your claim to the contrary is incorrect) and I have excellent reliability with all my three cameras -- K100D, K-5II, K-1 -- (your demonstrations simply show a wrong set up or defective hardware, or a flash that takes forever to recycle because its batteries are about to die).

In none of your videos one can see the set up you are using. For all we know, you could be using a wrong flash profile or an incompatible flash (the video quality is so bad, one cannot even tell whether you are using a Nikon SB-700 or a clone). In one video you show the receiver status display briefly at the beginning but then you take the flash and receiver out of the frame. One can hear you operate buttons and it takes quite a while before you put the flash on the table. What have you done during this time? How is showing the settings in the beginning helpful in any way given that you seem to be changing things afterwards? That's like a magician allowing the audience to check a card deck but then taking the card deck out of sight to then present another card set. Is it the same card deck that people were allowed to inspect before? Who knows? For sure we know that the initial inspection is pointless unless there is no chance to swap out the card deck against another.

You may be using 1/128 of a power, but perhaps you are not. If you are using 1/1 power, for instance, some of the misfires could be explained by the flash not being allowed to completely recycle before you take the next shot. Perhaps the flash batteries are almost empty, causing extremely long recycle times? Something is definitely wrong in your test.

Again, I cannot confirm any of the problems and issues you claim to demonstrate from my own experience and neither could a number of V6II users on this forum who have been using the V6II successfully. Do you really actually believe that what you have captured on video (with unknown hardware, firmware versions, and settings) is representative of how a V6II behaves? Seriously? I mean even if that's your genuine experience, why would you not wonder whether you have a defective unit or the wrong settings? I simply don't get it.

Last edited by Class A; 12-28-2016 at 07:31 AM.
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