New Flash Old Body

Dukeatoakland · 03-08-2017, 09:50 PM

I know, you are thinking I just bought a new suit for myself. Not so.
I have a Metz 52 af-1 that I adore. I use it with my digital bodies. I would like to use it with my LX. Is there any reason I wouldn't slap it on the hotshoe and fire away? What should I expect? I don't mind wasting film, but any advice that minimizes it would be appreciated.
I read that the AF 280t is the flash of choice on the LX. What do I do to get the Metz to mimic it?

Cheers,
Duke

stevebrot · 03-08-2017, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Dukeatoakland

I know, you are thinking I just bought a new suit for myself. Not so.
I have a Metz 52 af-1 that I adore. I use it with my digital bodies. I would like to use it with my LX. Is there any reason I wouldn't slap it on the hotshoe and fire away? What should I expect? I don't mind wasting film, but any advice that minimizes it would be appreciated.
I read that the AF 280t is the flash of choice on the LX. What do I do to get the Metz to mimic it?

Cheers,
Duke

Does the Metz support the Pentax analog TTL protocol? From the specs that I was able to find, it supports digital TTL protocol and P-TTL, but not the original analog TTL protocol. As such, you will be limited to manual operation, though maybe with some elements of Pentax dedication.

Steve

**UncleVanya** · 03-08-2017, 10:53 PM

I doubt anything other than manual mode will work with your Metz. Even the Pentax FTZ series flashes fail to work except for manual mode on Non KAF2 or later mounts. The 280T gives full dedication an auto mode and true TTL flash metering.

Dukeatoakland · 03-08-2017, 11:06 PM

As far as I know it's digital P-TTL. So, I loose the aperture priority mode? That seems like a minor trade.

Is there any chance of damage to the flash using the hot shoe?

stevebrot · 03-08-2017, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Even the Pentax FTZ series flashes fail to work except for manual mode on Non KAF2 or later mounts.

??? Yes, the Metz 52 af-1 is manual only on the LX. However, the ~~AF360FTZ~~ AF360FGZ and ~~AF540FTZ~~ AF540FGZ both support analog TTL on the 67II, 645, 645N, 645NII, Super Program, and LX. Digital protocol TTL support is a little complicated, but also present for most AF film cameras with those two flashes. The Metz 52 af-1 should also support digital protocol TTL on those AF cameras.

Steve

**UncleVanya** · 03-09-2017, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

??? Yes, the Metz 52 af-1 is manual only on the LX. However, the AF360FTZ and AF540FTZ both support analog TTL on the 67II, 645, 645N, 645NII, Super Program, and LX. Digital protocol TTL support is a little complicated, but also present for most AF film cameras with those two flashes. The Metz 52 af-1 should also support digital protocol TTL on those AF cameras.

Steve

Are there af360ftz and af540ftz models? I only know of af360fgz and af540fgz models. The older film era ftz models like the af330ftz are what I was referring to. I agree that the fgz series seems to have this feature, but it is not present in the af500ftz for example. All the ftz flashes that I have found state that on non-kaf2 or newer mounts the flash is manual only. Since Metz is emulating not licensing Pentax flash protocols it isn't clear how they interact with the capabilities of the various series of Pentax flashes. However it seems reasonable that if Pentax dropped support for analog ttl on non-kaf2 in the ftz series that Metz may have done so as well in their emulated compatibility.

stevebrot · 03-09-2017, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Are there af360ftz and af540ftz models?

Typo...

Steve

**UncleVanya** · 03-09-2017, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Typo...

Steve

Ok. But you were responding to my ftz comments. So my comments stand unabated.

mcgregni · 03-09-2017, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Dukeatoakland

As far as I know it's digital P-TTL. So, I loose the aperture priority mode? That seems like a minor trade.

I think you lose more than that ....it seems that you can't have any automatic flash exposure at all. These days I imagine that trying to shoot Manual mode flash pictures on film is not for the faint hearted

No doubt you could work out a workflow and calculations, but it would be rather painstaking I suspect.

Perhaps an 'auto thyristor' type of flash, or one that includes that mode, is a way to go? This does not depend on any information exchange between flash and camera, is generally accurate and the settings to make are not too arduous.

stevebrot · 03-09-2017, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

The older film era ftz models like the af330ftz are what I was referring to.

And you are correct. Thanks for setting me right. The AF model flashes is where the off-the-film TTL story gets complicated. I don't have detailed knowledge and have yet to see a comprehensive feature matrix that is complete. The naming convention is of limited use as well. All that is clear is that there is body support for two OTF TTL control protocols, analog (4 hot shoe contacts*) and digital (5 hot shoe contacts**) with some 5-contact bodies/flash supporting both.

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Ok. But you were responding to my ftz comments. So my comments stand unabated.

Yep...hangs head in shame

Steve

* trigger + ready + mode + rail
** trigger + ready + mode + digital + rail

**UncleVanya** · 03-09-2017, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

And you are correct. Thanks for setting me right. The AF model flashes is where the off-the-film TTL story gets complicated. I don't have detailed knowledge and have yet to see a comprehensive feature matrix that is complete. The naming convention is of limited use as well. All that is clear is that there is body support for two OTF TTL control protocols, analog (4 hot shoe contacts*) and digital (5 hot shoe contacts**) with some 5-contact bodies/flash supporting both.

Yep...hangs head in shame

Steve

* trigger + ready + mode + rail
** trigger + ready + mode + digital + rail

Full disclosure... I have actually made this typo mistake myself in the past. I just wanted to clarify to be sure I wasn't confused.

stevebrot · 03-09-2017, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Since Metz is emulating not licensing Pentax flash protocols it isn't clear how they interact with the capabilities of the various series of Pentax flashes. However it seems reasonable that if Pentax dropped support for analog ttl on non-kaf2 in the ftz series that Metz may have done so as well in their emulated compatibility.

I agree. My Sigma EF 610 DG Super (Pentax) lists both TTL and P-TTL in its feature set, but does not support the analog protocol. I am curious as to whether it works with TTL AF bodies.

Steve

Dukeatoakland · 03-09-2017, 06:10 PM - **1 Like**

I don't mind shooting manual flash. The Metz makes it easy to have a light touch. I use it for fill and and boost, so blowouts shouldn't be a problem on negative film. Having said that, the older flashes seem pretty inexpensive. Any reason to not buy a af280t flash?

stevebrot · 03-09-2017, 09:30 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Dukeatoakland

Any reason to not buy a af280t flash?

Flimsy battery door?

I really like my AF280T. It has a surprising level of dedication on current model Pentax cameras:

AF280T Review: stevebrot

Steve

03-08-2017, 09:50 PM	#1
Dukeatoakland Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Mount Shasta, CA Posts: 66	New Flash Old Body I know, you are thinking I just bought a new suit for myself. Not so. I have a Metz 52 af-1 that I adore. I use it with my digital bodies. I would like to use it with my LX. Is there any reason I wouldn't slap it on the hotshoe and fire away? What should I expect? I don't mind wasting film, but any advice that minimizes it would be appreciated. I read that the AF 280t is the flash of choice on the LX. What do I do to get the Metz to mimic it? Cheers, Duke

03-08-2017, 11:28 PM	#5
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by UncleVanya Even the Pentax FTZ series flashes fail to work except for manual mode on Non KAF2 or later mounts. ??? Yes, the Metz 52 af-1 is manual only on the LX. However, the ~~AF360FTZ~~ AF360FGZ and ~~AF540FTZ~~ AF540FGZ both support analog TTL on the 67II, 645, 645N, 645NII, Super Program, and LX. Digital protocol TTL support is a little complicated, but also present for most AF film cameras with those two flashes. The Metz 52 af-1 should also support digital protocol TTL on those AF cameras. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 03-09-2017 at 11:03 AM.

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03-08-2017, 10:37 PM	#2
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Dukeatoakland I know, you are thinking I just bought a new suit for myself. Not so. I have a Metz 52 af-1 that I adore. I use it with my digital bodies. I would like to use it with my LX. Is there any reason I wouldn't slap it on the hotshoe and fire away? What should I expect? I don't mind wasting film, but any advice that minimizes it would be appreciated. I read that the AF 280t is the flash of choice on the LX. What do I do to get the Metz to mimic it? Cheers, Duke Does the Metz support the Pentax analog TTL protocol? From the specs that I was able to find, it supports digital TTL protocol and P-TTL, but not the original analog TTL protocol. As such, you will be limited to manual operation, though maybe with some elements of Pentax dedication. Steve

03-08-2017, 10:53 PM	#3
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	I doubt anything other than manual mode will work with your Metz. Even the Pentax FTZ series flashes fail to work except for manual mode on Non KAF2 or later mounts. The 280T gives full dedication an auto mode and true TTL flash metering.

03-08-2017, 11:06 PM	#4
Dukeatoakland Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Mount Shasta, CA Posts: 66 Original Poster	As far as I know it's digital P-TTL. So, I loose the aperture priority mode? That seems like a minor trade. Is there any chance of damage to the flash using the hot shoe?

03-09-2017, 06:57 AM	#6
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	Originally posted by stevebrot ??? Yes, the Metz 52 af-1 is manual only on the LX. However, the AF360FTZ and AF540FTZ both support analog TTL on the 67II, 645, 645N, 645NII, Super Program, and LX. Digital protocol TTL support is a little complicated, but also present for most AF film cameras with those two flashes. The Metz 52 af-1 should also support digital protocol TTL on those AF cameras. Steve Are there af360ftz and af540ftz models? I only know of af360fgz and af540fgz models. The older film era ftz models like the af330ftz are what I was referring to. I agree that the fgz series seems to have this feature, but it is not present in the af500ftz for example. All the ftz flashes that I have found state that on non-kaf2 or newer mounts the flash is manual only. Since Metz is emulating not licensing Pentax flash protocols it isn't clear how they interact with the capabilities of the various series of Pentax flashes. However it seems reasonable that if Pentax dropped support for analog ttl on non-kaf2 in the ftz series that Metz may have done so as well in their emulated compatibility.

03-09-2017, 11:02 AM	#7
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by UncleVanya Are there af360ftz and af540ftz models? Typo... Steve

03-09-2017, 11:22 AM	#8
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	Originally posted by stevebrot Typo... Steve Ok. But you were responding to my ftz comments. So my comments stand unabated.

03-09-2017, 11:28 AM	#9
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Originally posted by Dukeatoakland As far as I know it's digital P-TTL. So, I loose the aperture priority mode? That seems like a minor trade. I think you lose more than that ....it seems that you can't have any automatic flash exposure at all. These days I imagine that trying to shoot Manual mode flash pictures on film is not for the faint hearted No doubt you could work out a workflow and calculations, but it would be rather painstaking I suspect. Perhaps an 'auto thyristor' type of flash, or one that includes that mode, is a way to go? This does not depend on any information exchange between flash and camera, is generally accurate and the settings to make are not too arduous.

03-09-2017, 11:38 AM	#10
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by UncleVanya The older film era ftz models like the af330ftz are what I was referring to. And you are correct. Thanks for setting me right. The AF model flashes is where the off-the-film TTL story gets complicated. I don't have detailed knowledge and have yet to see a comprehensive feature matrix that is complete. The naming convention is of limited use as well. All that is clear is that there is body support for two OTF TTL control protocols, analog (4 hot shoe contacts) and digital (5 hot shoe contacts) with some 5-contact bodies/flash supporting both. Originally posted by UncleVanya Ok. But you were responding to my ftz comments. So my comments stand unabated. Yep...hangs head in shame Steve trigger + ready + mode + rail ** trigger + ready + mode + digital + rail

03-09-2017, 11:49 AM	#11
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	Originally posted by stevebrot And you are correct. Thanks for setting me right. The AF model flashes is where the off-the-film TTL story gets complicated. I don't have detailed knowledge and have yet to see a comprehensive feature matrix that is complete. The naming convention is of limited use as well. All that is clear is that there is body support for two OTF TTL control protocols, analog (4 hot shoe contacts) and digital (5 hot shoe contacts) with some 5-contact bodies/flash supporting both. Yep...hangs head in shame Steve trigger + ready + mode + rail ** trigger + ready + mode + digital + rail Full disclosure... I have actually made this typo mistake myself in the past. I just wanted to clarify to be sure I wasn't confused.

03-09-2017, 12:54 PM	#12
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by UncleVanya Since Metz is emulating not licensing Pentax flash protocols it isn't clear how they interact with the capabilities of the various series of Pentax flashes. However it seems reasonable that if Pentax dropped support for analog ttl on non-kaf2 in the ftz series that Metz may have done so as well in their emulated compatibility. I agree. My Sigma EF 610 DG Super (Pentax) lists both TTL and P-TTL in its feature set, but does not support the analog protocol. I am curious as to whether it works with TTL AF bodies. Steve

03-09-2017, 06:10 PM - 1 Like	#13
Dukeatoakland Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Mount Shasta, CA Posts: 66 Original Poster	I don't mind shooting manual flash. The Metz makes it easy to have a light touch. I use it for fill and and boost, so blowouts shouldn't be a problem on negative film. Having said that, the older flashes seem pretty inexpensive. Any reason to not buy a af280t flash?

03-09-2017, 09:30 PM - 1 Like	#14
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Dukeatoakland Any reason to not buy a af280t flash? Flimsy battery door? I really like my AF280T. It has a surprising level of dedication on current model Pentax cameras: AF280T Review: stevebrot Steve