Flash recommendation for K-1

mcgregni · 06-26-2017, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by clackers

You're looking at his picture, but ignoring his text:

" ...HSS is for using flash in those instances where you need to push the shutter speed past 1/200? For example, you mentioned sunlight in that clause, because if we're going to shoot wide open (1.8-2.8 etc) and are outside, we need a very fast shutter speed to not over expose"

Guys, there was contradiction between the theory and the practical application..... in relation to the cat photo the OP wrote about the awkward shooting position affecting steadiness, and this appeared to be his primary purpose for the shutter speed setting.

My own view on that particular cat shot is that HSS was not necessary. I think the motion freezing would be more effective from a single flash 'pop' , not the 'rolling shutter' effect from an HSS pulse at 1/320th. The background will not suffer from the slightly longer exposure time of the Max Sync Speed because it is a blurred background anyway. The ambient light on the background could equally have been reduced to the same EV by a small adjustment to aperture or ISO ....(I think we're only talking about 2/3rds of a stop ......)

BrianR · 06-26-2017, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by mcgregni

My own view on that particular cat shot is that HSS was not necessary. I think the motion freezing would be more effective from a single flash 'pop' , not the 'rolling shutter' effect from an HSS pulse at 1/320th. The background will not suffer from the slightly longer exposure time of the Max Sync Speed because it is a blurred background anyway. The ambient light on the background could equally have been reduced to the same EV by a small adjustment to aperture or ISO ....(I think we're only talking about 2/3rds of a stop ......)

The 'rolling shutter' effect from the mechanical shutter shouldn't be an issue in most normal cases, it's really a problem if you're photographing telephone poles while driving down the highway, or other high speed objects where a skewing effect is noticeable. Here's a good spinning example of HSS vs Normal Sync and a spinning dremel: High Speed Shutter vs. Ordinary Flash Sync.

With the cat image, if normal sync had been used, the most noticeable blur would come from ghosting around the edges as that cat looks pretty ready to not move. It depends on how shaky the hands were but normal sync is certainly an option here (note the built in SR helps too!). Certainly worth trying both options

.

**clackers** · 06-26-2017, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by mcgregni

Guys, there was contradiction between the theory and the practical application.....

Nigel, Bruce's text and picture in post 48 describe two different situations.

Not sure why you're connecting them, other than that they use higher shutter speeds.

I really think you're underselling the guy.

mcgregni · 06-26-2017, 01:36 PM - **1 Like**

I'm not trying to 'undersell' Bruce, I was trying to be helpful. Its clear enough that we all have questions about this issue of what technical flash approach will produce the best motion freezing effect.

Originally posted by BruceBanner

Clackers.. quick question. So as you know I picked up the 540II which does HSS, and I think before I mentioned that I am useless at reading and learning from manuals, so am I understanding correctly that HSS is for using flash in those instances where you need to push the shutter speed past 1/200? For example, you mentioned sunlight in that clause, because if we're going to shoot wide open (1.8-2.8 etc) and are outside, we need a very fast shutter speed to not over expose, but if we also need flash to assist with that shot that's when HSS is required? I took this picture this morning of my moggy, I used HSS even tho I was indoors (I think 1/320), not because the cat was animated but more because I'm getting old and getting down onto the floor to take the pic I was shaking somewhat and felt a higher shutter speed assisted.

Yes of course Bruce has written exactly what the main purpose of HSS is ... for the exposure control in bright conditions with wide apertures. The question is whether HSS is compatible with the desire to shoot steady handheld pics at faster shutter speeds, or whether it in fact hinders that aim.

**clackers** · 06-26-2017, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by mcgregni

I'm not trying to 'undersell' Bruce, I was trying to be helpful.......

With an HSS rolling shutter bogey man, Mcgregni? You've got a very different concept of 'helpful'!

Please identify the artifacts in his moggy pic ...

Class A · 06-27-2017, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

t.1 of the 540fgz at full power was measured to be 1/200th (by forum member AstroDave, yay!).

Sure, but note T.1 means there is still another 10% of light to come.

BTW, I quoted from the Metz 58 AF-2 manual and also once confirmed through measurements that you can increase the exposure you can get from a full power flash by not using the speed sync (1/180s for most Pentax DSLRS), but by going a bit lower. At 1/125s there was a measurable increase in brightness compared to 1/180s. Perhaps a good tip for anyone trying to squeeze the most out of their flash.

Originally posted by BrianR

For the applications Bruce has mentioned, this is mostly fine.

Sure. I wasn't commenting on Bruce's applications.

I was responding to mcgregni's comments about HSS. I don't entirely disagree with him, but one should be aware of the fact that unless one chooses a low enough output level, flash exposures are all but "instantaneous". That's all.

Class A · 06-27-2017, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

Here's a good spinning example of HSS vs Normal Sync and a spinning dremel: High Speed Shutter vs. Ordinary Flash Sync.

Thanks for the link, I wish I would have been able to point to this demonstration when I was trying to argue a long time ago that the PrioLite HSS strobes should not be looked at as an ideal high-speed photography solution. Back then I argued that short flash bursts would be preferable.

On the other hand, HSS does not introduce a "rolling shutter" effect. We get that with ambient light as well. So anyone unhappy with the potential "rolling shutter" effect implied by using HSS (which would include me in certain rare situations), should be unhappy about the intrinsic "rolling shutter" effect of a focal plane shutter in general.

mcgregni · 06-27-2017, 01:56 AM

We sure want to keep the bogeyman at bay! I can feel a fan, a flash and some speed tests coming on! Point taken about the actual length of a full power flash 'pop' ClassA .... It had been very interesting to challenge and question the often assumed position regarding the motion freezing effectiveness of HSS vs single pop flash.

My assumption has always been that the normal flash output at the max sync speed is the best technical approach for getting a sharp subject and slightly less sharp background (depending on the level of ambient light)

awscreo · 06-27-2017, 11:36 AM

Do you guys think I'd need hss capable flash if I shoot with 70-200 2.8? I'm considering the yn 585, but if can only shoot with high apertures,then I guess it's not that useful?

What's the cheapest way to get hss capability?

---------- Post added 06-27-17 at 11:49 AM ----------

Hmm, seems af360 can be had for like 70$ used. Would that be a better purchase than yn 585? I'm not sure what the cons would be, is it weaker power wise?

mcgregni · 06-27-2017, 02:00 PM

F2.8 out in the sunshine will certainly often push you into HSS territory, even at ISO100. Its a common scenario, shooting portraits with a 70-200 F2.8 zoom, bringing down the ambient with a 'fast shutter speed', and punching in some HSS flash to light the face and shoulders. Put your model on the end of a pier with the beautiful sea and sky in behind, and even with bare direct flash you've got guaranteed spectacular portraits!

If that Yongnuo is the latest P-TTL one released for Pentax, then I don't think it does HSS. The cheapest modern one that does is the Shanny .... someone else will be able to give the exact model number. The Pentax AF360 is less powerful, not really powerful enough for HSS in bright sunlight I suspect ..... at least not at the distances involved with a 70-200 zoom.

awscreo · 06-27-2017, 02:32 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mcgregni

F2.8 out in the sunshine will certainly often push you into HSS territory, even at ISO100. Its a common scenario, shooting portraits with a 70-200 F2.8 zoom, bringing down the ambient with a 'fast shutter speed', and punching in some HSS flash to light the face and shoulders. Put your model on the end of a pier with the beautiful sea and sky in behind, and even with bare direct flash you've got guaranteed spectacular portraits!

If that Yongnuo is the latest P-TTL one released for Pentax, then I don't think it does HSS. The cheapest modern one that does is the Shanny .... someone else will be able to give the exact model number. The Pentax AF360 is less powerful, not really powerful enough for HSS in bright sunlight I suspect ..... at least not at the distances involved with a 70-200 zoom.

I actually found a AF 540 m1 for around 150, which is reasonable for my budget) is there a big difference m1 vs m2? On paper it seems m1 would be just fine for me, I don't do a lot of portrait work, just wanted to dabble in it)

mcgregni · 06-27-2017, 03:29 PM

There's no significant differences between the 'mk1' and 'mk2' models for your intended use. I'd go for it!

howieb101 · 06-27-2017, 04:39 PM

Well I would prefer the mk1 because it has (A)utothryristor mode that the mk2 doesn't.

Howie Be

awscreo · 06-27-2017, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by howieb101

Well I would prefer the mk1 because it has (A)utothryristor mode that the mk2 doesn't.

Howie Be

What does that mode do?) I'm a total newb to flash. I only worked with natural light, or a continuous light in studio few times

howieb101 · 06-27-2017, 09:28 PM - **1 Like**

A flash with Auto (thyristor) mode adjusts flash output automatically without having to spend the money for a PTTL flash. You tell the flash what ISO speed and aperture you are using, and the flash measures the amount of light reflected from the scene with a light sensor on the FLASH (not the camera). This is also sometimes called "thyristor" mode (from the thyristor circuit used to control the flash output.)

Essentially the flash is measuring the required exposure of the scene and adjusts flash power itself with its own light meter/sensor. It doesn't use PTTL to measure the exposure setting and doesn't require a pre-flash to measure the exposure.

It's kind of an auto mode just not P-TLL auto-mode.

Hopefully someone else can describe it better than me.

06-26-2017, 06:59 AM	#62
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by mcgregni My own view on that particular cat shot is that HSS was not necessary. I think the motion freezing would be more effective from a single flash 'pop' , not the 'rolling shutter' effect from an HSS pulse at 1/320th. The background will not suffer from the slightly longer exposure time of the Max Sync Speed because it is a blurred background anyway. The ambient light on the background could equally have been reduced to the same EV by a small adjustment to aperture or ISO ....(I think we're only talking about 2/3rds of a stop ......) The 'rolling shutter' effect from the mechanical shutter shouldn't be an issue in most normal cases, it's really a problem if you're photographing telephone poles while driving down the highway, or other high speed objects where a skewing effect is noticeable. Here's a good spinning example of HSS vs Normal Sync and a spinning dremel: High Speed Shutter vs. Ordinary Flash Sync. With the cat image, if normal sync had been used, the most noticeable blur would come from ghosting around the edges as that cat looks pretty ready to not move. It depends on how shaky the hands were but normal sync is certainly an option here (note the built in SR helps too!). Certainly worth trying both options.

06-26-2017, 12:43 PM	#63
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by mcgregni Guys, there was contradiction between the theory and the practical application..... Nigel, Bruce's text and picture in post 48 describe two different situations. Not sure why you're connecting them, other than that they use higher shutter speeds. I really think you're underselling the guy. Last edited by clackers; 06-26-2017 at 12:54 PM.

06-27-2017, 01:56 AM	#68
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	We sure want to keep the bogeyman at bay! I can feel a fan, a flash and some speed tests coming on! Point taken about the actual length of a full power flash 'pop' ClassA .... It had been very interesting to challenge and question the often assumed position regarding the motion freezing effectiveness of HSS vs single pop flash. My assumption has always been that the normal flash output at the max sync speed is the best technical approach for getting a sharp subject and slightly less sharp background (depending on the level of ambient light) Last edited by mcgregni; 06-27-2017 at 02:04 AM.

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06-26-2017, 06:39 AM	#61
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Originally posted by clackers You're looking at his picture, but ignoring his text: " ...HSS is for using flash in those instances where you need to push the shutter speed past 1/200? For example, you mentioned sunlight in that clause, because if we're going to shoot wide open (1.8-2.8 etc) and are outside, we need a very fast shutter speed to not over expose" Guys, there was contradiction between the theory and the practical application..... in relation to the cat photo the OP wrote about the awkward shooting position affecting steadiness, and this appeared to be his primary purpose for the shutter speed setting. My own view on that particular cat shot is that HSS was not necessary. I think the motion freezing would be more effective from a single flash 'pop' , not the 'rolling shutter' effect from an HSS pulse at 1/320th. The background will not suffer from the slightly longer exposure time of the Max Sync Speed because it is a blurred background anyway. The ambient light on the background could equally have been reduced to the same EV by a small adjustment to aperture or ISO ....(I think we're only talking about 2/3rds of a stop ......)

06-26-2017, 01:36 PM - 1 Like	#64
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	I'm not trying to 'undersell' Bruce, I was trying to be helpful. Its clear enough that we all have questions about this issue of what technical flash approach will produce the best motion freezing effect. Originally posted by BruceBanner Clackers.. quick question. So as you know I picked up the 540II which does HSS, and I think before I mentioned that I am useless at reading and learning from manuals, so am I understanding correctly that HSS is for using flash in those instances where you need to push the shutter speed past 1/200? For example, you mentioned sunlight in that clause, because if we're going to shoot wide open (1.8-2.8 etc) and are outside, we need a very fast shutter speed to not over expose, but if we also need flash to assist with that shot that's when HSS is required? I took this picture this morning of my moggy, I used HSS even tho I was indoors (I think 1/320), not because the cat was animated but more because I'm getting old and getting down onto the floor to take the pic I was shaking somewhat and felt a higher shutter speed assisted. Yes of course Bruce has written exactly what the main purpose of HSS is ... for the exposure control in bright conditions with wide apertures. The question is whether HSS is compatible with the desire to shoot steady handheld pics at faster shutter speeds, or whether it in fact hinders that aim.

06-26-2017, 05:25 PM	#65
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by mcgregni I'm not trying to 'undersell' Bruce, I was trying to be helpful....... With an HSS rolling shutter bogey man, Mcgregni? You've got a very different concept of 'helpful'! Please identify the artifacts in his moggy pic ...

06-27-2017, 01:04 AM	#66
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by BrianR t.1 of the 540fgz at full power was measured to be 1/200th (by forum member AstroDave, yay!). Sure, but note T.1 means there is still another 10% of light to come. BTW, I quoted from the Metz 58 AF-2 manual and also once confirmed through measurements that you can increase the exposure you can get from a full power flash by not using the speed sync (1/180s for most Pentax DSLRS), but by going a bit lower. At 1/125s there was a measurable increase in brightness compared to 1/180s. Perhaps a good tip for anyone trying to squeeze the most out of their flash. Originally posted by BrianR For the applications Bruce has mentioned, this is mostly fine. Sure. I wasn't commenting on Bruce's applications. I was responding to mcgregni's comments about HSS. I don't entirely disagree with him, but one should be aware of the fact that unless one chooses a low enough output level, flash exposures are all but "instantaneous". That's all.

06-27-2017, 01:16 AM	#67
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by BrianR Here's a good spinning example of HSS vs Normal Sync and a spinning dremel: High Speed Shutter vs. Ordinary Flash Sync. Thanks for the link, I wish I would have been able to point to this demonstration when I was trying to argue a long time ago that the PrioLite HSS strobes should not be looked at as an ideal high-speed photography solution. Back then I argued that short flash bursts would be preferable. On the other hand, HSS does not introduce a "rolling shutter" effect. We get that with ambient light as well. So anyone unhappy with the potential "rolling shutter" effect implied by using HSS (which would include me in certain rare situations), should be unhappy about the intrinsic "rolling shutter" effect of a focal plane shutter in general.

06-27-2017, 11:36 AM	#69
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Do you guys think I'd need hss capable flash if I shoot with 70-200 2.8? I'm considering the yn 585, but if can only shoot with high apertures,then I guess it's not that useful? What's the cheapest way to get hss capability? ---------- Post added 06-27-17 at 11:49 AM ---------- Hmm, seems af360 can be had for like 70$ used. Would that be a better purchase than yn 585? I'm not sure what the cons would be, is it weaker power wise?

06-27-2017, 02:00 PM	#70
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	F2.8 out in the sunshine will certainly often push you into HSS territory, even at ISO100. Its a common scenario, shooting portraits with a 70-200 F2.8 zoom, bringing down the ambient with a 'fast shutter speed', and punching in some HSS flash to light the face and shoulders. Put your model on the end of a pier with the beautiful sea and sky in behind, and even with bare direct flash you've got guaranteed spectacular portraits! If that Yongnuo is the latest P-TTL one released for Pentax, then I don't think it does HSS. The cheapest modern one that does is the Shanny .... someone else will be able to give the exact model number. The Pentax AF360 is less powerful, not really powerful enough for HSS in bright sunlight I suspect ..... at least not at the distances involved with a 70-200 zoom.

06-27-2017, 02:32 PM - 1 Like	#71
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by mcgregni F2.8 out in the sunshine will certainly often push you into HSS territory, even at ISO100. Its a common scenario, shooting portraits with a 70-200 F2.8 zoom, bringing down the ambient with a 'fast shutter speed', and punching in some HSS flash to light the face and shoulders. Put your model on the end of a pier with the beautiful sea and sky in behind, and even with bare direct flash you've got guaranteed spectacular portraits! If that Yongnuo is the latest P-TTL one released for Pentax, then I don't think it does HSS. The cheapest modern one that does is the Shanny .... someone else will be able to give the exact model number. The Pentax AF360 is less powerful, not really powerful enough for HSS in bright sunlight I suspect ..... at least not at the distances involved with a 70-200 zoom. I actually found a AF 540 m1 for around 150, which is reasonable for my budget) is there a big difference m1 vs m2? On paper it seems m1 would be just fine for me, I don't do a lot of portrait work, just wanted to dabble in it)

06-27-2017, 03:29 PM	#72
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	There's no significant differences between the 'mk1' and 'mk2' models for your intended use. I'd go for it!

06-27-2017, 04:39 PM	#73
howieb101 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 594	Well I would prefer the mk1 because it has (A)utothryristor mode that the mk2 doesn't. Howie Be

06-27-2017, 07:39 PM	#74
awscreo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,722	Originally posted by howieb101 Well I would prefer the mk1 because it has (A)utothryristor mode that the mk2 doesn't. Howie Be What does that mode do?) I'm a total newb to flash. I only worked with natural light, or a continuous light in studio few times

06-27-2017, 09:28 PM - 1 Like	#75
howieb101 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 594	A flash with Auto (thyristor) mode adjusts flash output automatically without having to spend the money for a PTTL flash. You tell the flash what ISO speed and aperture you are using, and the flash measures the amount of light reflected from the scene with a light sensor on the FLASH (not the camera). This is also sometimes called "thyristor" mode (from the thyristor circuit used to control the flash output.) Essentially the flash is measuring the required exposure of the scene and adjusts flash power itself with its own light meter/sensor. It doesn't use PTTL to measure the exposure setting and doesn't require a pre-flash to measure the exposure. It's kind of an auto mode just not P-TLL auto-mode. Hopefully someone else can describe it better than me.