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04-07-2018, 11:40 AM - 2 Likes   #16
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Exactly, you have the right idea. The umbrellas and softbox will diffuse the light for you. Testing is the perfect way to find out what results will look like. You could try one light, 2 light and three light scenarios with your umbrellas and softbox to see what results you like best, and use that basis for the actual shoot.

You can as you say also test the bare flash or flash using the on-board camera diffuser (flip out diffuser) using P-TTL and see what results you get.

The AF360FGZ models I have allow the up-down rotation, not side to side, in case you need to know. For what you are doing that positioning should suffice.

What you have planned seems quite simple, and the testing which will show you results and familiarize you with the set up and use of your equipment is the best way to prepare and be knowledgeable of what is feasible for your shoot.

Though I think you know what essentials you need to do well at this point, if you are ever interested in the flash arm tool I mentioned, which allows for rotation of the flash to accommodate horizontal or vertical shooting while eliminating more shadows in some instances, a shortcut to the one I have is below.

Vello QuickDraw Rotating Flash Bracket CB-100 B&H Photo Video


f

04-07-2018, 11:43 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by C_Jones Quote
Exactly, you have the right idea. The umbrellas and softbox will diffuse the light for you. Testing is the perfect way to find out what results will look like. You could try one light, 2 light and three light scenarios with your umbrellas and softbox to see what results you like best, and use that basis for the actual shoot.

You can as you say also test the bare flash or flash using the on-board camera diffuser (flip out diffuser) using P-TTL and see what results you get.

The AF360FGZ models I have allow the up-down rotation, not side to side, in case you need to know. For what you are doing that positioning should suffice.

What you have planned seems quite simple, and the testing which will show you results and familiarize you with the set up and use of your equipment is the best way to prepare and be knowledgeable of what is feasible for your shoot.

Though I think you know what essentials you need to do well at this point, if you are ever interested in the flash arm tool I mentioned, which allows for rotation of the flash to accommodate horizontal or vertical shooting while eliminating more shadows in some instances, a shortcut to the one I have is below.

Vello QuickDraw Rotating Flash Bracket CB-100 B&H Photo Video


f
That looks cool, might pick it up just to look more "pro"
04-07-2018, 11:56 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
That looks cool, might pick it up just to look more "pro"

It works. If you do get it, be careful to check where it mounts to the camera every so often to make sure it is tight. It is not a problem, just something to watch for.

I also have the YN585EX, which has Pentax TTL (P-TTL), and it does an excellent job.

If you do get the flash arm, there is also the version of it which is shorter than mine just in case you wanted to know. The cord I use to connect my camera to the off camera flash that is on the arm is listed below. Please note that it supports P-TTL.

Vello Off-Camera TTL Flash Cord for Pentax Cameras (3') OCS-P3

Last edited by C_Jones; 04-07-2018 at 12:01 PM.
04-07-2018, 12:08 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
I was thinking to buy a third HSS light for the shoot, maybe i'll need to pick up this YN..

The Yongnuo does not offer HSS, unfortunately.


I have used a Gary Fong Lightshpere on my control flash head in order to spread the light around widely, in fact 180deg, to trigger two optical slaves spaced opposite one another with me in between, and this was perfectly reliable in sunlight, at around 4 meters. I use the Fong Sphere because without it I had to choose one way or the other for the control head to be turned, and either way one flash would miss out on the light.


I agree with C Jones that unless the spread is very wide then you are likely to get line of sight with a bare forward facing flash head ..... however one that rotates also is a bonus for wireless optical triggering. If using softboxes and umbrellas then the diffuser itself can block the light to the flash sensor, so careful positioning and turning of the slave flash head to allow the flash body to face outwards usually helps with this.


Last edited by mcgregni; 04-07-2018 at 12:14 PM.
04-07-2018, 12:20 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
The Yongnuo does not offer HSS, unfortunately.


I have used a Gary Fong Lightshpere on my control flash head in order to spread the light around widely, in fact 180deg, to trigger two optical slaves spaced opposite one another with me in between, and this was perfectly reliable in sunlight, at around 4 meters. I use the Fong Sphere because without it I had to choose one way or the other for the control head to be turned, and either way one flash would miss out on the light.


I agree with C Jones that unless the spread is very wide then you are likely to get line of sight with a bare forward facing flash head ..... however one that rotates also is a bonus for wireless optical triggering. If using softboxes and umbrellas then the diffuser itself can block the light to the flash sensor, so careful positioning and turning of the slave flash head to allow the flash body to face outwards usually helps with this.
Ok, now with this good amount of info I need to wait until Monday when I get the 360, and go try stuff Thanks for info everyone! really helpful stuff

---------- Post added 04-07-18 at 12:23 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by C_Jones Quote
It works. If you do get it, be careful to check where it mounts to the camera every so often to make sure it is tight. It is not a problem, just something to watch for.

I also have the YN585EX, which has Pentax TTL (P-TTL), and it does an excellent job.

If you do get the flash arm, there is also the version of it which is shorter than mine just in case you wanted to know. The cord I use to connect my camera to the off camera flash that is on the arm is listed below. Please note that it supports P-TTL.

Vello Off-Camera TTL Flash Cord for Pentax Cameras (3') OCS-P3
Oh I know it works, I believe Chris Rankin is using an arm like that for his setup? His photos come out looking very cool

---------- Post added 04-07-18 at 12:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
The Yongnuo does not offer HSS, unfortunately.
Just to clarify this to myself - if I setup 360 on camera in HSS mode, and 540 and Sigma in slave mode optically, the 540 would fire and Sigma wouldn't?
04-07-2018, 12:44 PM   #21
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You haven't yet specified what Sigma model you have ......I think it may only be the DG Super version that offers HSS plus P-TTL wireless.


To work as you want, a slave flash must be P-TTL wireless and also HSS capable. There is no limit to the number of slaves you can use, they will all fire simultaneously so long as they receive the control flash. The exposure measurement will be an even mixture from all of them, unless there is a compensation or "wireless lighting ratio" setting made on the slave flashes. The global flash exposure can be controlled using the cameras flash compensation setting.

The on camera flash is set to "Wireless Control / Master" mode, then the HSS sync mode also.

Last edited by mcgregni; 04-07-2018 at 12:57 PM.
04-07-2018, 12:56 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
You haven't yet specified what Sigma model you have ......I think it may only be the DG Super version that offers HSS plus P-TTL wireless.


To work as you want, a slave flash must be P-TTL wireless and also HSS capable. There is no limit to the number of slaves you can use, they will all fire simultaneously so long as they receive the control flash. The exposure measurement will be an even mixture from all of them, unless there is a compensation or "wireless lighting ratio" setting made on the slave flashes. The global flash exposure can be controlled using the cameras flash compensation setting.
This one looks like the one I have I believe - Sigma EF-500 Super DG Shoe Mount Flash for Canon EOS E-TTL, Guide Number of 165 feet / 50 meter at 105mm Setting.

I'll check when I get home, but seems to be the one.

So is it not possible to have Sigma just fire at the power I want being triggered by the 360? I think I tested optical slave mode with 540 and Sigma, and it worked.

Another question - Pentax wireless mode, is it another name for optical slave/master system? Or Pentax flashes can communicate with one another wirelessly like the newer YN flashes can?
04-07-2018, 01:41 PM   #23
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For plenty of info on the Pentax Flash system, please take a look at my two 'Flash Guide' documents, downloadable PDFs from the link below my posts, or from the sticky thread at the top of this forum.


That Sigma flash you linked to is a Canon dedicated version ..... you will need a Pentax dedicated one.

........edit ... Sorry, perhaps you already have the Pentax version, its just the link that is to the Canon one.

"Wireless" in this context means the Pentax Optical Wireless system. Something like the Cactus I term "Radio P-TTL " or "Radio Manual".


Last edited by mcgregni; 04-07-2018 at 01:53 PM.
04-07-2018, 02:02 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
For plenty of info on the Pentax Flash system, please take a look at my two 'Flash Guide' documents, downloadable PDFs from the link below my posts, or from the sticky thread at the top of this forum.


That Sigma flash you linked to is a Canon dedicated version ..... you will need a Pentax dedicated one.

........edit ... Sorry, perhaps you already have the Pentax version, its just the link that is to the Canon one.

"Wireless" in this context means the Pentax Optical Wireless system. Something like the Cactus I term "Radio P-TTL " or "Radio Manual".
It is a Canon version, but it works with the triggers I have (only in one mode and in full manual, no TTL functionality). If it's an optical slave, it should work too right?

I downloaded your guides, thanks! I'll check them out over weekend.
04-08-2018, 01:37 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I'm not sure if we should categorise any particular event (eg weddings) as being suited to one or another type of technical triggering approach .... ?
My point was about moments that cannot be repeated and accepting a responsibility to capture once in a lifetime events, not for yourself, but for someone else.

We can debate which technology is best for that, but that some applications call for the best technical solution you can muster shouldn't be up for debate, right?

The mere fact that someone/something out of your control can interrupt a line-of-sight path, e.g., by simply blocking an optical sensor temporarily by walking by, that the sun could suddenly start interfering outdoors, etc. would suggest to me that this approach is less reliable than using a reliable radio triggering technology. It is possible that radio transmission has other Achilles heels, e.g., radio inference, but in my view if radio inference has been excluded through a test, it is very unlikely to become an issue during the event, in contrast to the vagaries of optical triggering. Just my view.

BTW, you yourself mentioned the need for "careful positioning and turning of the slave flash head" in some circumstances when using optical triggering. Personally, I would just eliminate that need, independently of whether or not optical triggering can be as reliable as radio triggering in controlled circumstances. One thing less to worry about.

Assuming that one's master flash is on a camera which can move and change rotation quite a bit (unless mounted to a tripod) even when you just change from portrait to landscape orientation, I wonder how realistic it is to reliably hit optical receivers in less than straightforward settings. No doubt optical triggering has many applications in which it is just fine, but in my book some of its limitations are just not worth bothering with in more demanding applications.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
These potential negatives would include greater complexities in configurations / things that can be set wrong / more learning to do in advance to ensure perfection .
I am assuming that one is competent regarding the gear one is using. Anything else would be negligent, if you are going to capture important images for someone else.

FWIW, I don't agree that there are "greater complexities" involved using radio triggers. Cheap ones require no configuration at all and all of them (cheap or not) work very well with default settings. Perform a factory reset, if you feel that you've tried something fancy and did not succeed. Note that Pentax's way of configuring the wireless channel on flashes is not intuitive at all and may not necessarily work with third-party products like the Sigma flash, given how non-standard Sigma flashes behave in other ways.

Anyhow, I'm not here to engage in a "optical" vs "radio" fight. I feel that my input was adequate and helpful and the OP appreciated it twice. So no point in losing focus by engaging in technology fights, OK?

Last edited by Class A; 04-08-2018 at 02:05 AM.
04-08-2018, 01:55 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
It is a Canon version, but it works with the triggers I have (only in one mode and in full manual, no TTL functionality). If it's an optical slave, it should work too right?
Optical slaves can work across systems, but they typically don't if anything more complicated that straight manual flash is involved.

So if you want to use P-TTL then the "Sigma for Canon" flash is unlikely to cope with the P-TTL pre-flashes issued by your master flash. You definitely won't be able to remotely control the power level of the Sigma flash optically and chances are it will fire prematurely (due to the pre-flashes) or not at all (depending on its configuration). Many flash models offer a mode in which they ignore pre-flashes and trigger on the main flash only, but you'll have to work out whether this particular Sigma model is capable of doing that regarding P-TTL.

Last edited by Class A; 04-08-2018 at 02:03 AM.
04-08-2018, 08:10 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Optical slaves can work across systems, but they typically don't if anything more complicated that straight manual flash is involved.

So if you want to use P-TTL then the "Sigma for Canon" flash is unlikely to cope with the P-TTL pre-flashes issued by your master flash. You definitely won't be able to remotely control the power level of the Sigma flash optically and chances are it will fire prematurely (due to the pre-flashes) or not at all (depending on its configuration). Many flash models offer a mode in which they ignore pre-flashes and trigger on the main flash only, but you'll have to work out whether this particular Sigma model is capable of doing that regarding P-TTL.
Yup I didn't think it'll allow me any sort of wireless control, I just want to set it to whatever power I need it at and leave it be. Actually, I'm hoping to change settings as little as possible during the shoot, so I'm planning to do some trial runs and figure out the settings I'd need beforehand.
04-08-2018, 10:00 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by awscreo Quote
Yup I didn't think it'll allow me any sort of wireless control, I just want to set it to whatever power I need it at and leave it be.
Apparently, the Cactus V6 trigger would support remote power control for your Sigma (for Canon) flash, and your other Pentax flashes.

But I agree that a fixed setting will be workable as long as you set it for the conditions on the day.

Just make sure, though, that the triggering itself will work, if you are going to use optical triggering. I'm sceptical that it will work, but it's worth a try.
04-08-2018, 10:45 AM   #29
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I would recommend the use of radio triggers for a more reliable setup as opposed to optical triggering. If the user has inexpensive radio triggers that have shown reliability, that may work. Otherwise, I would recommend Cactus V5 triggers which I own (6 transceiver units) or the later versions of the Cactus triggers (V6 and so on). They have multiple channels and are capable of grouping. Optical triggering can be very consistent in the right conditions, but the radio triggers are more of a sure fire method. Below is a shortcut to the V5 product (set of two) in case you are interested.

Cactus Wireless Flash Transceiver V5 Duo CACV5DUO B&H Photo
04-13-2018, 09:00 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
My point was about moments that cannot be repeated and accepting a responsibility to capture once in a lifetime events, not for yourself, but for someone else. We can debate which technology is best for that, but that some applications call for the best technical solution (my emphasis) you can muster shouldn't be up for debate, right?

I'm saying that what is 'best' is entirely dependent on the circumstances .... these include physical environment, distances involved, user knowledge and experience etc as well as what specific equipment is already to hand (system building considerations). You might say that 'radio is best', and I might reply 'no, optical is best' ..... that would be a meaningless argument, without any real life context. I'm also saying that it should not be a specific type of event, such as a wedding, that determines this choice, but rather the combination of factors as I listed just before. Both radio and optical equipment might fail or prove unreliable, for many possible reasons, at a wedding. I don't think it can be proven that any one is more guaranteed to not fail at an important event than the other.


It surely would be careful consideration and planning, taking into account the environment, distances, user knowledge and experience etc, that would in fact give the best security and reliability in any situation .... not whether one had chosen a Radio or Optical approach.

Regarding the need for 'careful positioning of the control flash head', then this limitation must be considered in the context of the working environment. I got the impression from this OP that he was probably going to be setting things up in a specific space ..... in a situation where it is obvious that a particular space is being used for formal photography then it is not likely that people will walk through blocking the optical signals .... it is more likely that people will see the area being used and respectfully stay clear. So if this is considered then its not really a 'limitation'. Of course, I accept that if things are more dynamic and the shooting position is changing then having to make frequent adjustments to the control flash aiming is a negative factor.

I just wanted to point out that Radio triggering was not completely free of concerns or potential failures. Consider that we've seen the report from the OP, Photodana, on the other thread about the V6II, where he is facing difficulties. Admittedly this may be a case of needing more time and learning about the equipment, but when an event is approaching it is not the best time to be under pressure to get a more complex system up and running.
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