[BruceBanner]

Ok,

So up until now I have had a semi decent experience using HSS and flash outdoors in my preferred User Mode, which is typically a fairly heavily customised Av mode (whereby I can toggle off Auto-Iso with ease or vary the ambient light with the EV+/-, that with controlling flash power can allow me to quickly nail the shot I'm looking for (I won't bother linking examples as I've kinda been there and done that in other forums already elsewhere).

My Cactus V6ii trigger and RF60x will not work properly under any other mode than Manual, thus I have to get my head around how to manipulate and configure my Manual Mode (and various other options) to allow for a gentle shadow lifting but overall fairly correctly exposed overall scene... quickly.

I've played with Manual Mode before, heaps with and without flash, and in a studio setting you have way more time and control to get the shot you're looking for, this is not what this post is about. This post is about being a wedding or event shooter, having flash mounted and knowing by toggling on the flash unit is going to assist in this tricky unfavourable lighting condition. But its more of a 'capture the moment' situation rather than something you can have a second go at again and again. So... how do you do it?

We're in Manual Mode on the camera, Cactus V6ii and Flash Unit (RF60x in my case) are all set up correctly to communicate with one another. HSS is supported.

It strikes me we can come at the scene from a variety of aspects. Example;

1) Get off Matrix mode and go Spot for getting correct exposure. Aim the Centre of the Spot Frame at the thing you care the most about (subjects face perhaps) and hit the Green button (aperture selected of your preferred initial choice).
2) After hitting the green button you notice that the shutter speed given is a little 'sluggish', so you decide to bump that ISO up a stop or two and hit the green button again (or manually alter the shutter speed to the same stop difference).
3) Take the shot.
4) We're still in TTL mode here, although the camera is in Manual Mode, we chimp the shot, hoping its fine as is, if not we might get a second chance and either mess with the exposure triangle to change the ambient lighting, or we play with the flash power directly.

I am curious if there are those that shoot flash in manual mode and have a better or more specific way to correctly expose an image with a good degree of accuracy when it comes to flash assistance.
In landscape work for example, I quite like to play with the ETTR principles of shooting, and have a spot meter and lock exposure on the brightest part of the image (clouds or blue sky typically) to preserve and save those important elements from being blown out. I am pondering if Manual Mode and TTL flash work if there are some general recommended guidelines to have set up on camera and flash and some quick scene analysis before firing the trigger.

So... how do you do it?

TIA!

Bruce

[mcgregni]

Hi Bruce, you're making it all sound very complicated again.

Take a look at the thread on here, it's been active just recently, "Some HSS Examples", which has discussion about ambient exposure and flash balancing outdoors .

I use multi-pattern metering....I don't think spot is suited to people shots outdoors.

It's generally nice to have the subject stand out a little by slightly underexposing the ambient . Just point the camera into the scene and let it meter normally .. Then just use the shutter speed to underexpose by 1/2 a stop or so. Don't do this with ISO, it's just making it more difficult. You want a fixed aperture and fixed ISO for consistent and reliable results.

I use the exposure indicator in the view finder to judge my ambient level. P-TTL exposure ie assessed by checking the LCD and histogram.

[BruceBanner]

Hi Bruce, you're making it all sound very complicated again.

Take a look at the thread on here, it's been active just recently, "Some HSS Examples", which has discussion about ambient exposure and flash balancing outdoors .

I use multi-pattern metering....I don't think spot is suited to people shots outdoors.

It's generally nice to have the subject stand out a little by slightly underexposing the ambient . Just point the camera into the scene and let it meter normally .. Then just use the shutter speed to underexpose by 1/2 a stop or so. Don't do this with ISO, it's just making it more difficult. You want a fixed aperture and fixed ISO for consistent and reliable results.

I use the exposure indicator in the view finder to judge my ambient level. P-TTL exposure ie assessed by checking the LCD and histogram.

I love to make a mess of the simplest of things, it's my super power!

With my Av mode I tend to have the EV at 0.7 all the time, protects highlights and generally gives an underexposed image. I like it this way, especially for PP simplicity, I can enhance the person and punch them out a tad more (kinda like they have had HSS treatment).
With Manual Mode I am a little more perplexed as to how best to approach. As you say maybe Multi Matrix is best, Set ISO (guess?) and aperture, hit green button, then as long as there is some room to play with the shutter speeds (ie ISO isn't too low) then just reduce shutter speed by 1/2 a stop or more.

Cheers, I will have a look at that thread now.

[mcgregni]

ISO 100 makes most sense when working with flash outdoors. This gives you the most ambient light control potential (ie max sync speed cuts the exposure the most possible for any chosen aperture.

Higher ISOs just push you into HSS territory, a power wasting pointless exercise if you don't need HSS.

Just take a general scene reading and then cut it a little with a shorter time value. This applies to HSS as well. Refer to the exposure indication in the viewfinder to keep your ambient exposure at the desired level below meter centre (eg 1/2, or 2/3rd stop below).

[amoringello]

My Cactus V6ii trigger and RF60x will not work properly under any other mode than Manual,

I'm curious why this is. It sounds like you have the Pentax HSS update.
If not, be sure you do. It makes "normal" flash control a bit odd, but HSS tends to "just work", as one would expect.
I have had no issues with Cactus V6ii trigger and RF60 working in the program modes.

Although I do normally use manual mode, just because I wang to make sure the shutter speed stays high enough and not knocked down due to some strange metering logic.
Once you're in manual mode and the ambient lighting is fairly consistent, you only need to change the flash power up or down a bit to compensate for how far away the subject might be.

Of course, if the environment lighting is changing a lot and I still need to make sure the shutter speed stays high, I am just not that good at quick manual mode changes. I will therefore stick to using Tv or maybe Tav if ISO is not a concern (with Auto ISO limits set to keep from the camera being stupid and gong to 3200, unexpectedly).

Personally if I'm shooting a single person who is fairly static or slow moving, I'll tend to use spot metering.
If it's a group of two or more or an active moving subject like a shelter-dog, center-weighted metering.

[BruceBanner]

I'm curious why this is. It sounds like you have the Pentax HSS update.
If not, be sure you do. It makes "normal" flash control a bit odd, but HSS tends to "just work", as one would expect.
I have had no issues with Cactus V6ii trigger and RF60 working in the program modes.

Although I do normally use manual mode, just because I wang to make sure the shutter speed stays high enough and not knocked down due to some strange metering logic.
Once you're in manual mode and the ambient lighting is fairly consistent, you only need to change the flash power up or down a bit to compensate for how far away the subject might be.

Of course, if the environment lighting is changing a lot and I still need to make sure the shutter speed stays high, I am just not that good at quick manual mode changes. I will therefore stick to using Tv or maybe Tav if ISO is not a concern (with Auto ISO limits set to keep from the camera being stupid and gong to 3200, unexpectedly).

Personally if I'm shooting a single person who is fairly static or slow moving, I'll tend to use spot metering.
If it's a group of two or more or an active moving subject like a shelter-dog, center-weighted metering.

I posted about my issue somewhere else on this forum, but probably better to see here; A Banding Affect in Av (automatic exposure) Modes? ? Cactus Community

I would just very much like to know if I am an isolated incident suffering this 'banding' when using my new RF60x and V6ii trigger, or simply a limitation of the devices and how they work. It could be my units are faulty somewhere, not sure which however...

[mcgregni]

Here's my general take on these few points .....


Metering Mode : In outdoor daylight situations, we are likely to be using flash to illuminate or fill-in a face that is either facing away from the sun, or partly in shade. Therefore Spot metering the skin is likely to lead to overexposed surrounds in many scenarios, and would just need excessive dialling down the shutter speed to get highlights back under control. So that's why I choose multi-pattern metering outdoors, because it accounts for bright highlights in skies, or sunlit water and sand etc. If I want to deliberately underexpose the ambient for an exaggerated effect then I point the lens up to the sky when taking the ambient meter reading. A spot meter reading is likely to be more accurate for tightly framed portraits, and less accurate for wider scenes where the subject is smaller. Multi-Pattern should cope well with most scenarios.


Program Modes : I agree with Amoringello that the Cactus system should work OK with camera Program Modes. My own personal aversion to them is quite specific ..... I don't believe that Auto-ISO should ever be used for flash working, not if you want well controlled and predictable results. Also Av mode, whilst compatible with HSS, is in practice difficult to work with as the shutter speed will keep jumping around the max sync causing the equipment to jump into and out of HSS mode, especially when the lens is moving around and the light entering the camera changes frequently. So again, for the needed tight control over things, and consistent results, then I recommend M camera mode for HSS.


I do like to use Av with a -0.5 or so compensation set when outdoors (non HSS) with the kids moving around and the scene is changing and the situation dynamic. This can work well by responding instantly and giving your desired balance .... however, it is not a recipe for consistent and repeatable results if shooing a series of portraits, as the ambient light is re-metered with every shot, and this also causes the flash metering to be re-assessed for each shot also.


Bruce, there is a section on Automatic Flash Photography in the Supplement to my "Flash Guide" .... this section includes the following topics : "Pentax Camera / Flash Mode Combinations" ..... "Automatic Flash / Ambient Exposure Balancing" ...... "Controlling and Limiting Factors" ...... "Focal Length Tv Limits / Auto ISO" ..... "Manual Control and ISO Recommendations"

If you have not already read this section in the Supplement then I hope it will prove helpful ...... Here is a link to it ...... https://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/1/p1634/Supplement%20to%2...une%202017.pdf


The section on Automatic Flash Photography starts on page 18.

[BruceBanner]

Here's my general take on these few points .....


Metering Mode : In outdoor daylight situations, we are likely to be using flash to illuminate or fill-in a face that is either facing away from the sun, or partly in shade. Therefore Spot metering the skin is likely to lead to overexposed surrounds in many scenarios, and would just need excessive dialling down the shutter speed to get highlights back under control. So that's why I choose multi-pattern metering outdoors, because it accounts for bright highlights in skies, or sunlit water and sand etc. If I want to deliberately underexpose the ambient for an exaggerated effect then I point the lens up to the sky when taking the ambient meter reading. A spot meter reading is likely to be more accurate for tightly framed portraits, and less accurate for wider scenes where the subject is smaller. Multi-Pattern should cope well with most scenarios.

Cool. So typically when I am forced to be in Manual mode it's because I am using some old glass and I want to stop down more than being forced to shoot wide open. My tactic in this is to choose M mode, choose aperture on the lens, and then hit green button, glance at the shutter speed, if too low for the lens, bump ISO up quickly and hit green button again. Metering mode is typically matrix for this. Sometimes I can skip a step if I can assess the (poorer) lighting quite quickly and know that just by setting the ISO to 400 I am safer for shutter speed (hit green button and just take the shot, even if the shutter speed is slightly overkill). Times I've had a slower experience in Manual mode has been when I am at ISO 100, a K 200 attached or something, choosing to shoot at f5.6, hit green button but now I have only 1/30th shutter speed (too low for a lens like this). So I get that it depends on lens attached and available light, however if you're happy with ISO 400 quality images, having my Manual Mode (Custom Mode) set up to having ISO 400 as default may be a step quicker to the shot, all that's required is a Green button press and go. The only time I think this wouldn't apply is with a very bright sunny day, where ISO 100 is needed otherwise the camera might want over 1/8000 if choosing wide apertures etc.

I want to clarify, when you say the passage in bold, you're taking the meter reading and then hitting the green button, then bringing the camera back down a tad to reframe and shoot? With Av Modes I quite often use the AE-L feature, locking exposure etc, and then also playing around with the +/- EV button to get the desired result (kinda like a hybrid Av starting point moving towards a more Manual shot). In Manual Mode the +/- EV button seems to do nothing, it's requiring you to play with one of the exposure triangles directly, and the AE-L not as important as essentially your hitting of the green button is the AE-L (things are locked at that exposure for every shot after), if you want more or less light you must adjust aperture, ISO or shutter speeds.

Program Modes : I agree with Amoringello that the Cactus system should work OK with camera Program Modes. My own personal aversion to them is quite specific ..... I don't believe that Auto-ISO should ever be used for flash working, not if you want well controlled and predictable results. Also Av mode, whilst compatible with HSS, is in practice difficult to work with as the shutter speed will keep jumping around the max sync causing the equipment to jump into and out of HSS mode, especially when the lens is moving around and the light entering the camera changes frequently. So again, for the needed tight control over things, and consistent results, then I recommend M camera mode for HSS.


I do like to use Av with a -0.5 or so compensation set when outdoors (non HSS) with the kids moving around and the scene is changing and the situation dynamic. This can work well by responding instantly and giving your desired balance .... however, it is not a recipe for consistent and repeatable results if shooing a series of portraits, as the ambient light is re-metered with every shot, and this also causes the flash metering to be re-assessed for each shot also.


Bruce, there is a section on Automatic Flash Photography in the Supplement to my "Flash Guide" .... this section includes the following topics : "Pentax Camera / Flash Mode Combinations" ..... "Automatic Flash / Ambient Exposure Balancing" ...... "Controlling and Limiting Factors" ...... "Focal Length Tv Limits / Auto ISO" ..... "Manual Control and ISO Recommendations"

If you have not already read this section in the Supplement then I hope it will prove helpful ...... Here is a link to it ...... https://www.pentaxforums.com/content/uploads/files/1/p1634/Supplement%20to%2...une%202017.pdf


The section on Automatic Flash Photography starts on page 18.

I'm sure I have your pdf flash book, at the time I flipped through it I got scared, all of that lingo and tech was going right over my head (still does!) though I feel I am working towards understanding all of this a bit better now so might brave those pages and passages one more time

When you say Program Modes, just to be clear, we're not talking P mode only, we're talking Av, TAv etc?

I agree with the Auto-ISO thing. With my Av mode I have it so that rotating the front dial takes you off the Auti-ISO and sets Manual ISO, leaving only the Shutter speed to be adjusted automatically. Indeed even in the shots I posted on the cactus forum there of the two images of the grey curtain backdrop, one was Manual mode, the other Av, yet both shots have exactly the same exposure readings, and the Av mode was out of Auto-ISO at that time as well, the banding just still seems to come back in with a single variable in 'Auto' (this case shutter). It is perplexing indeed, and slightly frustrating as I feel (and have demonstrated in the past) that I have managed to get a few quick 'HSS Capture the Moment' shots successfully with other Flash units in my preferred chosen mode (Av) with my preferred approach in that mode. In a studio setting where I and the model have time and patience for repeat shots to get that exact look you're after, yes Manual is the best for the job, but you don't quite get that chance at an event so was looking for the quickest and simplest approach settings to use in Manual Mode that might mimic this with a degree of consistent success, with the result seeking to just lift shadows slightly up (racoon eyes and faces under hats etc).

[mcgregni]

Actually Bruce, there will be others here who will know this better than me, and especially about the compensation setting in M mode (it does do something) ... I'd have to test it out to be sure, but in Manual mode the green button will reset the settings to the "meter centre" figures. I think that the parameter it actually changes depends on the custom setting for "Shift". The most logical setting here for flash is"TV Shift" where the shutter speed resets while the aperture and ISO remain fixed.

So in practice, you aim at the scene (or the sky it you want a darker exposure), press the green button and then recompose for your subject. The settings remain fixed now until you press the green button again, or make independent adjustments using the e-dials. You would only use the green button to reset things it you change position or the ambient light changes.

As explained in the Supplement PDF, the P-TTL flash exposure is influenced by the ambient exposure you have fixed .... This plus the distribution of light in the scene determines whether the flash metering will try to provide a reduced "fill" level or a fuller exposure as the main light source. So it's a good thing to understand how flash metering is influenced, as your ability to quickly choose compensation values will improve and speed up your work.

[BruceBanner]

Actually Bruce, there will be others here who will know this better than me, and especially about the compensation setting in M mode (it does do something) ... I'd have to test it out to be sure, but in Manual mode the green button will reset the settings to the "meter centre" figures. I think that the parameter it actually changes depends on the custom setting for "Shift". The most logical setting here for flash is"TV Shift" where the shutter speed resets while the aperture and ISO remain fixed.

So in practice, you aim at the scene (or the sky it you want a darker exposure), press the green button and then recompose for your subject. The settings remain fixed now until you press the green button again, or make independent adjustments using the e-dials. You would only use the green button to reset things it you change position or the ambient light changes.

As explained in the Supplement PDF, the P-TTL flash exposure is influenced by the ambient exposure you have fixed .... This plus the distribution of light in the scene determines whether the flash metering will try to provide a reduced "fill" level or a fuller exposure as the main light source. So it's a good thing to understand how flash metering is influenced, as your ability to quickly choose compensation values will improve and speed up your work.

Yeah, I think I discovered early on Manual mode was doing something weird with the green button, or in a bracketed shot, like not adjusting shutter speed and instead changing aperture or something. I have indeed set the parameter to Tv Shift, so that the green button adjusts the Shutter speed only.

I am still keen to learn if my (cactus) units are doing something weird, I mean I can replicate the banding issue with consistency, and thus far with all my posts and research I seem to be alone with getting this effect. Even if I get proficient in Manual Mode flashing, perhaps things are still not quite working as well as they should (uneven flash etc).

[pschlute]

Yeah, I think I discovered early on Manual mode was doing something weird with the green button, or in a bracketed shot, like not adjusting shutter speed and instead changing aperture or something. I have indeed set the parameter to Tv Shift, so that the green button adjusts the Shutter speed only.

Setting the parameter to Tv shift for green button in Manual mode will mean that bracketing will change shutter speed only to give you the different exposures.

). In Manual Mode the +/- EV button seems to do nothing

Press the green button and the meter will be centred, but this is not the same exposure as a "centred" meter reading without EV compensation.

[mcgregni]

Thanks Peter, you came to the rescue! I keep things simple and prefer to just take test readings, flick the front e-dial for a quick shortening of exposure (using the EV indicator to guide me) and lock it in Manual.... Generally shutter speed adjustments of around 0.7 to 1.5 stops below the meter centre are about right for most scenes with sky. You have to be careful not to go too low or areas of ground shadow can go too black looking.

Bruce mentioned his 85mm lens and Multi-Pattern .....am I right in thinking that multi-pattern doesn't work with Manual focus lenses, that it would default to center-weighted ?

[pschlute]

Bruce mentioned his 85mm lens and Multi-Pattern .....am I right in thinking that multi-pattern doesn't work with Manual focus lenses, that it would default to center-weighted

Correct. If the camera/lens cannot communicate you cannot use matrix. It defaults to CW metering, although you can use spot if you wish.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks Peter, you came to the rescue! I keep things simple and prefer to just take test readings, flick the front e-dial for a quick shortening of exposure (using the EV indicator to guide me) and lock it in Manual.... Generally shutter speed adjustments of around 0.7 to 1.5 stops below the meter centre are about right for most scenes with sky. You have to be careful not to go too low or areas of ground shadow can go too black looking.

Bruce mentioned his 85mm lens and Multi-Pattern .....am I right in thinking that multi-pattern doesn't work with Manual focus lenses, that it would default to center-weighted ?

Yep, getting the hang of it now.

Correct. If the camera/lens cannot communicate you cannot use matrix. It defaults to CW metering, although you can use spot if you wish.

For some reason the 85 Samyang supports Matrix, at least its an option to select (whether or not it's actually working properly I'm not so sure, I think it is tho), and like other lenses can of course toggle to CW or Spot. I have seen what you're meaning with other MF lenses however, that Matrix is not selectable, you get CW or Spot only.

[mcgregni]

Sorry for the delay, I missed this for a while. I believe that with an "A type" lens, even though the aperture is coupled and controlled by the camera, multi-pattern does not work (despite appearing to be active), and it defaults to centre-weighted. This is because the focus points can't provide their input .... This is also the reason that P-TTL flash metering is not "officially" supported with A type lenses, and as has been mentioned before in relation to your Samyamg 85mm, you should not expect very accurate and consistent P-TTL flash exposures.

Your nice new DA35 should be fine thought!