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08-09-2018, 01:00 PM   #1
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Replicate this bug for me please (V6ii needed)

Ok, so I have been troubleshooting with Cactus somewhat to see if this issue lies just with my V6ii units, my lens or...

I wonder if people can try and replicate this issue, it's fairly easily tested, takes 1min and no setup time required (not actually going to fire flash).

What happens for me, is if I have my Samyang 85/1.4 lens attached to my K-1, and I'm in Av mode, I can see my shutter speed vary accordingly (like it should, fluctuate properly depending upon available light). However, if I then attach my V6ii trigger, go to Tx mode then what occurs is my shutter speed gets restricted to being either one of two settings (depending upon light), it's either 1/200 or 1/8000, nowhere inbetween...

With modern AF lenses this does not occur, and I am yet to try some of my other MF glass (A-Setting ones and not), but I just wanted to put it out there to see if this was a Samyang only thing, a Cactus V6ii + MF glass + Av mode thing etc. The more feedback I can give Antonio at Cactus the better.

Cheers!

Bruce

08-09-2018, 03:10 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Ok, so I have been troubleshooting with Cactus somewhat to see if this issue lies just with my V6ii units, my lens or...

I wonder if people can try and replicate this issue, it's fairly easily tested, takes 1min and no setup time required (not actually going to fire flash).

What happens for me, is if I have my Samyang 85/1.4 lens attached to my K-1, and I'm in Av mode, I can see my shutter speed vary accordingly (like it should, fluctuate properly depending upon available light). However, if I then attach my V6ii trigger, go to Tx mode then what occurs is my shutter speed gets restricted to being either one of two settings (depending upon light), it's either 1/200 or 1/8000, nowhere inbetween...

With modern AF lenses this does not occur, and I am yet to try some of my other MF glass (A-Setting ones and not), but I just wanted to put it out there to see if this was a Samyang only thing, a Cactus V6ii + MF glass + Av mode thing etc. The more feedback I can give Antonio at Cactus the better.

Cheers!

Bruce
What happens if you just attach a flash and turn it on? Does it behave the like it did without the trigger or like with it?
08-09-2018, 03:21 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
What happens if you just attach a flash and turn it on? Does it behave the like it did without the trigger or like with it?
In the past I have shot successfully in Av mode with either a Metz 44 AF-2 or a 540II ontop (HSS to boot). This suggests its a Cactus V6ii issue rather than how Pentax handles flash mode in Av.
Currently I want to ascertain if all V6ii are doing this (with MF glass such as Samyang etc) or just my unit, or its a firmware or setting issue on the V6ii. The more V6ii and pentax users out there that can replicate this issue helps troubleshoot, because the flash experience itself in Av mode is also giving erratic and peculiar results.

A much more detailed thread is given here; A Banding Affect in Av (automatic exposure) Modes? ? Cactus Community

For now I thought a simple 2min toggle of settings with a v6ii on top from various users would assist;

1) get the camera + MF lens
2) go to av mode
3) check that shutter speeds are toggling properly through range of speeds
4) mount v6ii
5) turn it to Tx mode
6) report back

Do the shutter speeds get restricted to either only 1/200 or 1/8000, or are they moving through the whole spectrum (as they should). If things are working normally pls report back firmware and v6ii setup config.

AS i said, AF glass is working as you'd expect, but the 'banding' issue (as outlined in the thread above) is still apparent, however I think that the 1/200 or 1/8000 thing is probably related or more important to figure out if an anomaly or consistent across the Pentax + MF glass + V6ii + Av mode right now.

Ta!
08-10-2018, 04:19 AM - 1 Like   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
What happens for me, is if I have my Samyang 85/1.4 lens attached to my K-1, and I'm in Av mode, I can see my shutter speed vary accordingly (like it should, fluctuate properly depending upon available light). However, if I then attach my V6ii trigger, go to Tx mode then what occurs is my shutter speed gets restricted to being either one of two settings (depending upon light), it's either 1/200 or 1/8000, nowhere inbetween...
I've tried it with my K-1 (V1.40) and Samyang 85/1.4 in "A mode" and see the same behaviour (running V1.1.013 on the V6II).

However, I also see the same behaviour when I mount my Metz 58 AF-2 in "P-TTL HSS" mode on the K-1.
This very much appears to be some strange K-1 behaviour, as
  1. it also occurs with a P-TTL flash, and
  2. it doesn't occur when I use my K-5II.
BTW, the "1/200" speed depends on the focal length of the lens attached. If I mount my FA 77/1.8, the slowest shutter speed possible becomes "1/100s".

That's why I prefer to be in "M" mode when using flash since as much as the camera is trying to be helpful in constraining settings, it typically ends up being a mystery why it behaves in a certain manner.

08-10-2018, 04:41 AM   #5
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I have long advocated M camera mode for HSS working, regardless of the flash being used …..it's the only way to gain the required full control over things.
08-10-2018, 04:58 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I've tried it with my K-1 (V1.40) and Samyang 85/1.4 in "A mode" and see the same behaviour (running V1.1.013 on the V6II).

However, I also see the same behaviour when I mount my Metz 58 AF-2 in "P-TTL HSS" mode on the K-1.
This very much appears to be some strange K-1 behaviour, as
  1. it also occurs with a P-TTL flash, and
  2. it doesn't occur when I use my K-5II.
BTW, the "1/200" speed depends on the focal length of the lens attached. If I mount my FA 77/1.8, the slowest shutter speed possible becomes "1/100s".

That's why I prefer to be in "M" mode when using flash since as much as the camera is trying to be helpful in constraining settings, it typically ends up being a mystery why it behaves in a certain manner.
K-5II has a bug. And it is "positive" thing, because you can use manual lens with HSS mode. K-1 do not support this mode with manual lenses and uses always 1/200 s.
08-10-2018, 05:17 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I've tried it with my K-1 (V1.40) and Samyang 85/1.4 in "A mode" and see the same behaviour (running V1.1.013 on the V6II).

However, I also see the same behaviour when I mount my Metz 58 AF-2 in "P-TTL HSS" mode on the K-1.
This very much appears to be some strange K-1 behaviour, as
  1. it also occurs with a P-TTL flash, and
  2. it doesn't occur when I use my K-5II.
BTW, the "1/200" speed depends on the focal length of the lens attached. If I mount my FA 77/1.8, the slowest shutter speed possible becomes "1/100s".

That's why I prefer to be in "M" mode when using flash since as much as the camera is trying to be helpful in constraining settings, it typically ends up being a mystery why it behaves in a certain manner.
Thanks for that! And yes my Metz 44-AF2 is also doing it, which I really thought it wasn't doing that, but I know why. You can get it to 'behave' in Av mode, I just somehow managed to get my Metz flash firing in PTTL mode, and saw the shutter speed move throughout the spectrum normally, but then i powered off and on again and nope it went back to being stuck at the 1/200 or 1/8000 only. So I'm not sure how you get it to accidentally work right, it might of been the order I connected things up to it and turned stuff on

Tested with my KP and it too suffers the same fate as the K-1.

I'll report those findings back to Cactus. I haven't tested other MF glass yet tho, but I'm sure the AF glass behaves fine (however the banding issue still persists).

I do agree with Manual Mode for flash, for situations that call for it, studio and not 'running and gunning', there have been occasions where I have had a lot of success doing HSS in Av mode (won't bore you with pics again), I'm just trying to work out why the Cactus units are doing the banding thing in that mode (regardless of lens attached). I had hoped this 1/200 1/8000 thing was a clue somehow, but nah, I think its just a weird anomaly.
It'll take some practice to use Manual mode in events such as frantic wedding receptions where the lighting changes constantly yet want to capture those frantic drunken moments
I guess having a safe ISO like 400 or 800 and spamming the green button between each shot would be one suggestion for getting an approximate good exposure without hitting too low a shutter speed?
In Manual Mode is there anyway to specify that upon pressing the green button the shutter speed doesn't shift but the ISO does instead? I mean you can tell it upon a green button press to get exposure 'right' by modifying just one of the exposure triangle variables (shutter speed or aperture), but not ISO? Isn't that a tad odd? Why give the user only 2/3 things that could happen at a press of the green button in Manual mode, why not all 3/3 choices :/

Last edited by BruceBanner; 08-10-2018 at 05:25 AM.
08-10-2018, 05:25 AM   #8
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Bruce, you should use a fixed ISO 100 for HSS work.... There's no purpose for any other ISO for portraits with HSS

08-10-2018, 03:52 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Bruce, you should use a fixed ISO 100 for HSS work.... There's no purpose for any other ISO for portraits with HSS
Yeah I'm pretty sure that any of my previous Av HSS work would have been ISO 100 (even if Auto and not toggled off briefly), shutter speeds 1/5000+ etc, as I do enjoy shooting pretty wide apertures, F4-5.6 is a rarity for me! Remember, Av doesn't always mean Auto-ISO, I have mine set to take me out of that mode and use it often.

I just simply meant that Av Mode has that convenience of 'set & forget', you can set things up so that you're never at risk of dropping shutter speeds too low, can walk between outdoors and indoors without needing to fiddle too much and catch those candid impromptu moments easier.
I 100% agree that if conditions allow then Manual Mode makes complete and utter sense, less guess work being done by the flash, more control over ambient lighting and flash power etc. But I don't think for one minute that Av Flash work is somehow a 'beginners' thing or a mistake, it has it's place, it just purely depends on the situation you find yourself shooting in.

I joined a Magmod FB Forum group recently whereby this exact question was asked (what mode do you use flash work in), and people submitted their opinions backed up by example shots, I found it very interesting that quite a few professional wedding photographers (and I mean professional, their work was of a very very high standard) would show some of their reception Av Flash shots, then share their flash set ups that try and tread that line whereby there wouldn't be any unsuspecting odd flash exposured shots. Having in camera EV at -07-1 was a common starting point (something my K-1 is typically set as default), and then the flash power too also dialled back a tad. Results were excellent, fantastic candid moments caught with successful flash firing.

Of course there are those 2-3 light set up bride and groom posed shots, no one was talking about Av mode here, it's Manual all the way, but for running and gunning work there was actually a lot of Pro Av Flash users.

I'm just slightly peeved that for the first time Av mode (or actually I think any mode other than Manual, even X mode!) is off the table even when shooting with Modern AF lenses with the Cactus System (because of this bizarre banding issue that occurs). It means that I will have to try and adopt a pure Manual Mode of 'running and gunning'... Well... it might make me a better shooter if I manage to adapt, I am worried however that I do lose candid moments from fiddling with a setting here or there :/
08-11-2018, 12:33 PM - 1 Like   #10
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I do agree that Av mode can be useful with flash in changing conditions (non HSS), but it's no recipe for consistency for light balancing ...... Unfortunately the variables with auto-exposure and reflective light metering are just too great. And it's not a Pro vs Amateur thing. ....a good photographer will choose to use all the helpful assistance they can get, so long as ir is suited to the circumstances.

Av mode is not suited to HSS circumstances IMO.
08-12-2018, 09:07 AM   #11
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I am always surprised at how easy Manual Mode really is when you try it. Not intuitive but it gets the results.
08-14-2018, 12:13 PM   #12
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Hello, maybe I'm a bit late...

I made the test with my K3-II, V6II with multibrand HSS firmware 1.1.013 and Samyang A 85.
My findings are that my lower speed is limited to 1/180, that is my sync speed when the V6II is on. I have my monitor in front of me so I can point my lens to my monitor or elsewhere to vary the speed with a fixed aperture, so:
with ISO set to 100 (minimum), in Av mode I need 'more' that 1/180 regardless the apperture (1/160 1/100 etc), with the V6II off, to get a proper exposure; if I set the V6 II to ON, the speed is fixed at 1/180, it doesn't move.
with ISO set to 8000, I can get speeds up to 1/8000 in Av mode, with the V6II OFF, to get a proper exposure; when I set the V6 II to ON, I can reach 1/8000 with my aperture set to 1/1.4, at f/13 the speed is 1/180 and with greater 'f' is fixed at 1/180, my maximun sync speed.

So in my test, with the V6 II and Av mode, the speed is limited to 1/180-1/8000 range, above normal sync speeds.

Regards.
08-14-2018, 01:33 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Hello, maybe I'm a bit late...

I made the test with my K3-II, V6II with multibrand HSS firmware 1.1.013 and Samyang A 85.
My findings are that my lower speed is limited to 1/180, that is my sync speed when the V6II is on. I have my monitor in front of me so I can point my lens to my monitor or elsewhere to vary the speed with a fixed aperture, so:
with ISO set to 100 (minimum), in Av mode I need 'more' that 1/180 regardless the apperture (1/160 1/100 etc), with the V6II off, to get a proper exposure; if I set the V6 II to ON, the speed is fixed at 1/180, it doesn't move.
with ISO set to 8000, I can get speeds up to 1/8000 in Av mode, with the V6II OFF, to get a proper exposure; when I set the V6 II to ON, I can reach 1/8000 with my aperture set to 1/1.4, at f/13 the speed is 1/180 and with greater 'f' is fixed at 1/180, my maximun sync speed.

So in my test, with the V6 II and Av mode, the speed is limited to 1/180-1/8000 range, above normal sync speeds.

Regards.
Yeah sounds like K3ii is doing the same as other Pentax's, thanks for contributing your finding. This doesn't seem to be a Samyang thing, other Pentax old manual focus glass (A settings etc) all do the same in Av mode with the V6ii switched on, they get stuck, toggling either between the upper or lower limits only and nothing inbetween.
08-14-2018, 02:14 PM   #14
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It's an interesting finding and worth noting, but surely it is going way too far to expect Cactus's modern digital Radio trigger system to offer full compatibility with lens technology that is more than 30 years obsolete...?

It's a nice to have for us Pentaxians, auto exposure with our treasured old fungus filled long discontinued superceded outdated A series glass, and lovely that Ricoh have maintained that option to today. But why should Cactus care anything about it?

I noticed that my Samyang 14mm does have some extra contacts over and above my SMC A types, but the performance of that modern lens was the same as the ancient A types in terms of this discussion. So effectively the Samyangs are in the same category as the old A series.
08-15-2018, 01:16 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
It's an interesting finding and worth noting, but surely it is going way too far to expect Cactus's modern digital Radio trigger system to offer full compatibility with lens technology that is more than 30 years obsolete...?

It's a nice to have for us Pentaxians, auto exposure with our treasured old fungus filled long discontinued superceded outdated A series glass, and lovely that Ricoh have maintained that option to today. But why should Cactus care anything about it?

I noticed that my Samyang 14mm does have some extra contacts over and above my SMC A types, but the performance of that modern lens was the same as the ancient A types in terms of this discussion. So effectively the Samyangs are in the same category as the old A series.
It is, and as pointed out not a Cactus issue but rather a Pentax bug. The purpose of this was to actually ascertain if my unit was faulty, or if this is happening universal, and now we have that answer, hopefully if some other future Pentax/Cactus owner experiences this they can find this thread and confirm their own suspicions.

I was curious if this was also connected to the banding issue I was experiencing, if my V6ii unit was causing these static fixed shutter speeds with manual glass in Av mode, then perhaps things are still being peculiar in Av mode with modern glass causing the banding issue (ie perhaps they are connected).
As it turns out I don't think they are, I think perhaps I figured out the banding issue however, but I still need to test more, but what I have noticed is that I think somehow my V6ii trigger is toggling off 'Normal HSS' and then when in Av mode and getting high shutter speeds thus the banding issue would kick in. Is it possible that toggling the mode dial to some different modes (X mode for example) on the camera is taking HSS off on the V6ii?, and thus when toggling back to Av expecting things to work as they should (HSS on etc but in fact has toggled off) thus confused me and saw the banding effect?
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