[Paul the Sunman]

I'm a little confused about the Godox system. At the moment I have a Pentax AF360FGZII and Metz 52 AF-1, which are both P-TTL and HSS capable.

My understanding is that the Godox TT350P is their only P-TTL flash, that it can act as both optical master and slave, and that it is also HSS capable. So, if I placed a Godox XProP TTL wireless controller on my K1 hotshoe, it could trigger the TT350P wirelessly, and those in turn could trigger the Pentax and the Metz optically with full P-TTL compatibility. Is that correct?

Other "no-system" Godox flashes, like the TT600, could be triggered wirelessly by the XProP TTL, but could not P-TTL trigger the Pentax and Metz I presume?

Or am I completely off-base?

[Class A]

So, if I placed a Godox XProP TTL wireless controller on my K1 hotshoe, it could trigger the TT350P wirelessly, and those in turn could trigger the Pentax and the Metz optically with full P-TTL compatibility.

I doubt that an off-camera flash can work as an optical P-TTL master which is what I believe you'd need for it to be able to trigger your Pentax flashes.

Perhaps @mcgregni and/or @inkista can clarify.

I understand that you are essentially suffering from the lack of an X1-P receiver from Godox (which currently exists for Canon, Nikon, etc. but not for Pentax).

If you have Cactus V6II triggers, you might be able to use them in conjunction with the XPro-P through trigger stacking, but I haven't tried this myself yet.

Other "no-system" Godox flashes, like the TT600, could be triggered wirelessly by the XProP TTL, but could not P-TTL trigger the Pentax and Metz I presume?

The TT600 supports HSS as an off-camera flash in combination with the XPro-P and I'm pretty sure it supports P-TTL as well in this configuration but I don't think it could act as an optical trigger for your Pentax flashes for the same reason as the TT350P most likely won't work.

[mcgregni]

The TT350p does not have "Optical P-TTL Wireless" capability. As I've said on this forum before, using the term "master" was inevitably going to lead to confusion, and here we are ....

The "master" capability refers to on-flash transmitter control (Tx) for other compatible Godox radio system flashes. And yes, I believe ClassA is right in that even a fully featured dedicated system flash does have to be on the camera to act as wireless master/controller.

[Class A]

As I've said on this forum before, using the term "master" was inevitably going to lead to confusion, and here we are ....

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean.

Are you concerned with the ambiguity regarding speedlights that could be "radio-masters" vs "optical masters"?

The term "master mode" has a well-defined meaning and I don't see how it was used to detrimental effect.

The TT350p does not have "Optical P-TTL Wireless" capability.

I find this phrasing less useful as it could be interpreted to mean that the flash isn't able to respond optical P-TTL control or isn't able to exert optical P-TTL control, or both.

The "master" capability refers to on-flash transmitter control (Tx) for other compatible Godox radio system flashes.

This may be correct for the particular model you are talking about but that doesn't mean it isn't useful to talk about the model's ability to act as an optical master for other P-TTL flashes.

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Last edited by Class A; 02-12-2019 at 05:40 AM.

[mcgregni]

You perhaps are proving my point. ....as I said, the flash does not have "optical wireless P-TTL" capabilities. The term "master" is commonly associated with that type of technology, more so than with radio systems. So I believe there is a high chance of people misinterpreting the terminology to assume the optical wireless capability exists.

[Class A]

You perhaps are proving my point.

I'm not proving any point of relevance, but that's fine.

[Paul the Sunman]

Yes, confusing. They seem to use the master/slave terminology for wireless. That still leaves me unsure of the role played by P-TTL in the setup. Oh well, it's not what I was hoping.

From the B&H overview:

Users can also use it as an optical slave in addition to use as a radio TTL master/slave unit.

• An integrated 2.4 GHz X radio system is incorporated into the TT350P for wireless triggering. Able to be set up as a master or slave, this flash will help you create a versatile lighting setup with a range of 328' and support for 16 channels and three groups. It can also work with an optional X series transmitter for creating more elaborate setups.
• Being compatible with Pentax's TTL system, users will enjoy numerous automated flash settings and the ability to use functions such as high-speed sync.
• Optical slave mode is available for working with other standard flashes.

[mcgregni]

My interpretation of that : This is a P-TTL flash (on camera), and a "Radio P-TTL" type (off-camera). It includes a "dumb optical slave" mode for simple optical triggering (eg to be triggered off camera by other flashes operating in Manual mode).


In relation to the "Radio P-TTL" feature, the flash works within the Godox ecosystem, as a Radio Slave to be triggered by a compatible TTL (Pentax firmware version) Godox trigger, and also it can function as the on-camera Radio System Trigger (Tx) for other compatible Godox system TTL (Pentax firmware Version) flashes.

---------- Post added 12-02-19 at 22:15 ----------

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you mean....

(Posted by mcgregni ... "The flash does not have "Optical P-TTL Wireless" capability ...")
I find this phrasing less useful as it could be interpreted to mean that the flash isn't able to respond optical P-TTL control or isn't able to exert optical P-TTL control, or both.

It should be interpreted to mean exactly that, that is exactly what I am saying about the flash.

About the term "master", I just feel that it is most commonly associated with the traditional optical or infrared control systems. Flashes operating as radio "masters" is not such a common thing (we mostly use trigger devices I think, and we don't call them "masters", we call them transceivers or transmitters (Tx)) .... so I believe that using the term "Master" in as a mode for a Radio transmitter control mode on a flash is bound to lead to confusions about the capabilities of the flash, especially if it is also a P-TTL type in other respects.

Indeed, when I said you were proving my point, I just mean that surely it is obvious that this exact potential confusion I am warning about is being played out in front of our very eyes as we write all this

[inkista]

I'm a little confused about the Godox system. .... My understanding is that the Godox TT350P is their only P-TTL flash,

Yes, this is correct, if by "P-TTL" you mean a flash that can perform Pentax's TTL automated flash power setting, based on a metering.

that it can act as both optical master and slave,

This is incorrect. And the problem here, I think is that "optical" and "P-TTL" both seem to have two meanings.

The TT350P does not have "smart" optical capabilities, either master or slave. So, "wireless P-TTL" that relies on Pentax's "smart" optical system, where multiple pre-flashes are used to communicate flash settings from the camera's pop-up flash or a speedlight on the hotshoe will not work with the TT350. Or any TT350/V350. The Canon versions don't do wireless eTTL. The Nikon ones don't do CLS, the Sony ones don't do WL, and the MFT ones don't do Oly/Panny RC.

What the TT350 can do are the S1/S2 "dumb" optical slave modes. So, it does do optical slave. But this is more like Nikon's SU-4 mode, or using a Wein peanut. The flash has a sensor that fires it when another flash burst is sensed. S1 fires on the first burst sensed; S2 fires on the second. S2 allows you to use a pop-up flash that emits a pre-flash for TTL metering, so the slave flash won't fire early. And this is where the confusing marketing/spec copy will claim that the thing is compatible with TTL optical triggering. [facepalm].

Clear as mud, ain't it?

... and that it is also HSS capable.

Yup. Both as an on-camera flash, and as a radio slave in Godox's system. But not as a "dumb" optical slave in S1/S2 mode. Those, like cabling the sync port, are manual-only and do not communicate TTL/HSS/etc.

... So, if I placed a Godox XProP TTL wireless controller on my K1 hotshoe, it could trigger the TT350P wirelessly,

Yes, over radio.

...and those in turn could trigger the Pentax and the Metz optically with full P-TTL compatibility. Is that correct?

This last part is not correct. No piece of gear in the Godox system can simultaneously be a slave and a master. And, as has been stated multiple times, the TT350 simply doesn't do "smart" optical signalling at all.

Other "no-system" Godox flashes, like the TT600, could be triggered wirelessly by the XProP TTL,

It can be triggered by an X-Pro. It can do HSS from an Xpro. And it can have its M power ratio controlled by an XPro, but it cannot be zoomed or do TTL from an XPro.

but could not P-TTL trigger the Pentax and Metz I presume?

If by "P-TTL" you mean Pentax's "smart optical" triggering, the TT600 has no such capability. It only has the S1/S2 "dumb" modes.

[Class A]

My interpretation of that : This is a P-TTL flash (on camera), and a "Radio P-TTL" type (off-camera). It includes a "dumb optical slave" mode for simple optical triggering (eg to be triggered off camera by other flashes operating in Manual mode).

In relation to the "Radio P-TTL" feature, the flash works within the Godox ecosystem, as a Radio Slave to be triggered by a compatible TTL (Pentax firmware version) Godox trigger, and also it can function as the on-camera Radio System Trigger (Tx) for other compatible Godox system TTL (Pentax firmware Version) flashes.

I concur with that interpretation and inkista has confirmed it (sans an explicit confirmation of the on-camera radio master capability).

Flashes operating as radio "masters" is not such a common thing...

That's to be expected because in the grand scheme of flash technology these beasts are a relatively new development.
That shouldn't stop us from granting radio-master capabilities to these beasts.

I believe that using the term "Master" in as a mode for a Radio transmitter control mode on a flash is bound to lead to confusions about the capabilities of the flash,

It shouldn't lead to any more confusing than using the notion of "emits light" for an incandescent bulb, an LED, a speedlight, a strobe, etc.

Master capabilities exist independently of transmission technology.

Confusion only arises when someone (nowadays unjustifiably so) associates "master" with "optical master" only.
The fault is then with the individual who has to update their vocabulary, not with the use of the term.

Indeed, when I said you were proving my point, I just mean that surely it is obvious that this exact potential confusion I am warning about is being played out in front of our very eyes as we write all this.

Call me pedantic, but there is a difference between a discussion/thread proving your point and me in particular proving your point.
I was careful to use "optical" as a qualifier, so I don't see how I proved any point.

[Class A]

And the problem here, I think is that "optical" and "P-TTL" both seem to have two meanings.

That's not true in my book.

There are two meanings (refinements) to "wireless" and "master" which are "optical"/"radio" for "wireless" and "optical master"/"radio master" for "master".

The term "optical" in this context always unequivocally references "transmission of triggering signals/information via light emission".

The term "P-TTL" refers to a flash protocol that supports features like automatic metering, HSS, second-curtain sync., etc.

A "P-TTL" flash is assumed to support the main features (if not all) of the "P-TTL" protocol.

As you wrote, such support can be delivered in the form of acting as an off-camera P-TTL flash or in the form of an on-camera P-TTL flash.

Many Godox lights (and the Cactus RF60X) support off-camera P-TTL but not on-camera P-TTL.

I understand you personally pretty much know all of this; it is just my attempt to contribute to a common understanding of terminology.

No piece of gear in the Godox system can simultaneously be a slave and a master.

Technically I don't think that was relevant to the question you answered.

I don't regard a flash mounted to a radio receiver to be in "slave" mode.

Theoretically a radio receiver can be perceived as emulating a camera, so in theory a TT350-P on a radio receiver could be just in "optical master" mode (without having to be in a "slave" role as well). Of course, the situation is hypothetical because the TT350-P does not support an optical master role. Also, I'm emphasising the "theoretical" aspect of my point because most (all?) radio receivers do not perfectly emulate a camera.

And it [TT600] can have its M power ratio controlled by an XPro, but it cannot be zoomed or do TTL from an XPro.

That's a bit surprising, AFAIC.

There should be no reason why zoom control or automatic metering couldn't be supported. The TT600's flash tube should support pre-flashes like any other such speedlight, no?

Potentially the TT600's MCU wouldn't be able to accommodate further firmware code, but I guess it is just a matter of model differentiation and not having to maintain the most comprehensive firmware for every flash model?

Finally, can the TT350-P operate as a radio master with respect to other Godox products?

BTW, thanks for all your input to this community. Much appreciated!