Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-17-2019, 11:52 AM   #16
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 10,017
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Not on camera, Class A
I know. I was only answering the question which flashes can be put into HSS mode and "M" (manual) mode at the same time.

The inability of the RF60(X) to be used on a Pentax camera in this manner is to blame on the infinite wisdom of the Pentax engineers who chose to disable the regular centre pin triggering once the shutter speed exceeds the sync speed.

On a different camera, say from Nikon, you can use the RF60(X) -- and any other flash with a manual HSS mode -- on the camera and get results.

You can even use the RF60(X) with a Pentax in manual HSS mode, as long as you find a way of triggering it. One can use optical triggering or the "pistol starter method", or an Xpro-P, etc. This is why I said that the use of an V6II is not mandatory.

02-17-2019, 12:34 PM   #17
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,586
Some good points ClassA .... But, I'm not really seeing how an RF60x can "engage" HSS mode in isolation from its proprietary radio communication system (ie V6II transceivers) ? I understood that the "Normal HSS" sync mode related to the flash operating as a radio Slave. Are you saying this sync mode is applicable to Local mode (on camera) working also? I can't check it of course because I only have a Pentax DLSR.

I assume this is what you are inferring, and not just referring to the "HSS Sympathy" mode, which is really outside the scope of this discussion (ie it's a technique not needed now, and depends on optical triggering, not at all what the OP is contemplating) .

In any case the Godox TT350P has been shown by yourself and Des to be able to do this ..... But it's not really a contender is it? Just not powerful enough for the purpose ......?

I have found myself that P-TTL HSS flash exposures can look initially underwhelming on the camera LCD (as I said earlier the metering is going to be set lower for a fill in level) ..... However once the RAW is processed and levels are dealt with I usually find that the flash level was actually quite good.

Last edited by mcgregni; 02-17-2019 at 12:46 PM.
02-17-2019, 02:07 PM   #18
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
BruceBanner's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,289
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
BruceBanner. I think you're making this way, way to complicated with all the exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation aimed at increasing the output of your af360GZ II flash.

I think it would help by taking a look at the owner's manual for the flash, particularly the Guide Number (GN) charts in the back of the manual. Since my manual was published before the Pentax full-frame camera was issued, it may be better to search on line for a PDF copy of the older AF360FGZ's manual which gives GNs for 35mm cameras, which would be applicable to the K-1. The AF360FGZ and the newer model both have the same GNs. The charts should give you a clear idea of how much light the flash is capable of and at what distances, apertures and ISOs.

Using the charts, at a zoom setting of 85mm, the GN at ISO 100 is 36 meters at full power. Dividing 36 by the aperture, gives you the distance, e.g., 36/4 = 9 meters, while 36/8 = 4.5 meters, etc Or, divide 36 by the distance to determine the aperture. At ISO 200, the GN is about 51. At ISO 400, the GN is 72. At ISO 800, the GN is 102, etc.

The GN for the AF540FGZ II is 56 at ISO 100, which is a bit more powerful than the AF360FGZ II at ISO 200, which has a GN of 51. So you gain a bit more than 1 stop of light by moving up to the AF540FGZ II from the AF360FGZ II. You'll have to decide if moving up to the larger flash is worth the money, since doubling the ISO will get you almost the same exposure.

The max GN for High Speed Sync with the AF360FGZ II at ISO 100 and a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec is 9.5 at f/4. As you can see, you lose a lot of light when using HSS. In fact, it's like using your flash at 1/16 power. The faster the shutter speed, the less the effective light output. Add a softbox like the round one you're using and you've reduced the power even more.

In P-TTL mode, the AF360FGZ II gives you a range of .9 to 9 meters at ISO 100, f/4 and zoomed to 85mm. With the flash head zoomed to 35mm, the distance is reduced to .7 to 7.3 meters. Add the diffuser, it's even less.

I guess the bottom line to all of this is that if the flash isn't giving you enough light, raise the ISO until it does, or open the aperture, or both. If that still doesn't get what you want, a larger flash may be in order.
Fellas... where have we heard this before? Bruce over complicates and makes life hard for himself ahahhaa

I'm not making it complicated, I'm just thick.

Even now I have a little confused over what you wrote seeing as you are talking about raising ISO to assist with the exposure, but that's not quite what this thread is or what I am after... or is it? My head tells me that if I mess with one of the 3 exposure triangles I'm thus affecting the ambient light, something that is kinda irrelevant here, no? What I want is the power of my flash to increase and reach it's target better.



Incoming! Another fantastic Bruce pic

What I'm trying to illustrate here is me with my round flash shooting Davo. The black ink represents what I see with 1/1 in Manual Power at 1/200 (so indoors or a shaded area). Red ink shows P-TTL, and I'm trying to illustrate that it's weaker, even at 1/200.
The important point is to understand that my camera settings are the same, 1/200, aperture f4 (or whatever), ISO 100. If I increase ISO in P-TTL mode, I don't understand how this this starts to make the flash power reach my target better, what it's doing is raising all the exposures, ambient light as well (which is not what I want).

For example, here's what I came up with;

For P-TTL;
Av Mode
-1-1.7 EV comp
Adjust Flash compensation as needed either via the camera settings or direct on flash.

Pros = HSS supported, can shoot more wide open apertures. Far better for a candid shot, no need to chimp and check, the exposure will more than likely be pleasing and satisfactory
Cons = Seems to err on the side of caution by being a fill light more


For non P-TTL (i.e. manual flash power)
Manual Mode
-1-1.7 EV Comp
Green Button set to Av Shift
Adjust flash power or physically move your person to get right exposure.

Pros = with no change in camera settings (ie ambient light is the same as above scenario for P-TTL), at 1/1, being in the same environment as P-TTL scenario I can now light the subject better, flash can act more like key light than a fill. The flash from the 360II simply reaches it's target better.
Cons = 1/200, when outside and using green button to assist with the shot (on a bright day) it will therefore set the aperture to being quite stopped down (not as cool a look). Chimping is needed more, strong chance of over exposure. No HSS.

What I don't understand is how a change in camera settings is gonna make my P-TTL light 'do better'. What it might do is make my entire scene brighter, but the light is still gonna act like a fill light (all things being considered equal).

It's frustrating because just standing in the same spot, same environment, same ambient exposure settings, just by bailing out of P-TTL and into 1/1 Manual I get the light I need and want, it's proof that the 360II is actually powerful enough to illuminate the subject properly and pleasing, even through a roundflash and from a distance away. It's just a shame I am capped at 1/200 and f6 for the shot, whereas I would prefer perhaps f2 and 1/400 (or whatever). I just wish either I could command the 360II to flash compensate more than +2.0 (in P-TTL) or that the Manual 1/1 would work in HSS.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Some good points ClassA .... But, I'm not really seeing how an RF60x can "engage" HSS mode in isolation from its proprietary radio communication system (ie V6II transceivers) ? I understood that the "Normal HSS" sync mode related to the flash operating as a radio Slave. Are you saying this sync mode is applicable to Local mode (on camera) working also? I can't check it of course because I only have a Pentax DLSR.

I assume this is what you are inferring, and not just referring to the "HSS Sympathy" mode, which is really outside the scope of this discussion (ie it's a technique not needed now, and depends on optical triggering, not at all what the OP is contemplating) .

In any case the Godox TT350P has been shown by yourself and Des to be able to do this ..... But it's not really a contender is it? Just not powerful enough for the purpose ......?

I have found myself that P-TTL HSS flash exposures can look initially underwhelming on the camera LCD (as I said earlier the metering is going to be set lower for a fill in level) ..... However once the RAW is processed and levels are dealt with I usually find that the flash level was actually quite good.
Yeah that's my fear, it's too weak a flash. I don't think they're overly expensive so I might pick one up and give it a whirl. It may replace my 360II entirely if it has all the functionality of the 360II and more... It reminds me why last year with all the X-ProP announcements why I stayed with Cactus, the overall line up for Godox was still missing some things. Yes we can fire a AD200 via a trigger, and yes we can have small speedlights like the TT350P, but I really thought I saw somewhere that there was a V860IIP on the way, what happened to that, did they just give up? :'(

It is excellent news that the TT350P can do manual mode in HSS. I haven't found anything for outside running and gunning that is better than a roundflash. Indoors I actually don't use it that much, ceiling bounce is king. Outdoors with enough distance to subject and you can't even see rings in the eyes, the light is fairly soft and pleasing and not harsh like bare can be;



It's another reason to consider the move to Godox (eventually... when funds allow).

I do understand what you mean by 'things look naff' on the camera lcd but when back at base you can do a lot of shadow lifting. Sometimes just a little shadow lifting is all you need to fix a shot, unfortunately it might mean a small amount of additional brush work tho.

Last edited by BruceBanner; 02-17-2019 at 02:16 PM.
02-18-2019, 02:28 AM   #19
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 10,017
QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I'm not really seeing how an RF60x can "engage" HSS mode in isolation from its proprietary radio communication system (ie V6II transceivers) ?
It can, there is a respective menu option that controls when the flash goes into HSS mode.

One of the methods I mentioned that do not rely on a V6II is the "pistol starter method". You could use the same approach with a very simple ($15) trigger system, as the RF60(X) could provided the required delay on its own.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Are you saying this sync mode is applicable to Local mode (on camera) working also?
Yes, but note that the "on camera" part is not necessary.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
It is excellent news that the TT350P can do manual mode in HSS.
I'm not sure what excites you so much about this.

First of all, I do think that legitimate uses of on-camera flash are limited.
For those applications that do exist, it is equally fine to use a flash bracket, for instance, in conjunction with a trigger on the camera, communicating with the flash.
It's a bulkier setup but can also be more flexible with respect to orienting the flash and/or taking it off camera without losing functionality.

I'll admit, though, that I haven't read all your posts in detail so I might be unaware of requirements that explain your constraints/desires.

02-18-2019, 03:20 AM   #20
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
BruceBanner's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,289
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
It can, there is a respective menu option that controls when the flash goes into HSS mode.

One of the methods I mentioned that do not rely on a V6II is the "pistol starter method". You could use the same approach with a very simple ($15) trigger system, as the RF60(X) could provided the required delay on its own.
Are you saying... I could buy some small trigger that sits in the K-1 hotshoe, almost like an adapter, and then mount the RF60x on that, and then be able to fire Manual in HSS? Because if so that could really help!

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
First of all, I do think that legitimate uses of on-camera flash are limited.
Disagree. A great deal of indoor shots with on camera flash can help. Just needs bounced well. Either ceiling, directly behind or wall bounce, almost everytime it will help lower ISO and gain softer more flattering lighting. I wouldn't say limited at all.
Outdoors is a different story, no where to bounce and aiming directly at the subject does result in a harsh light... which is where the roundflash softbox comes in and the entire point to this thread.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
For those applications that do exist, it is equally fine to use a flash bracket, for instance, in conjunction with a trigger on the camera, communicating with the flash.
It's a bulkier setup but can also be more flexible with respect to orienting the flash and/or taking it off camera without losing functionality.
Flash bracket won't really help that much in this situation, but I can try it. The idea of the roundflash is to go directly around the lens, I'm pretty sure with my bracket it will obscure the lens when the flash head is placed through the intended hole.

My experience with flash brackets and Cactus has been less than impressive. Despite settings comms to short range, there were (for me) still a high count of misfires. I even noticed nudging my flash bracket a cm here or there would be all that was required to actually get the system to talk again, but it was never consistent. I also have been down the vello cable route. In the end I just think a bracket is over kill and unnecessary.

In the end I gave up on flash brackets, bought a 360II and just ceiling bounced like most. I really don't think flash brackets are the be all and end all for indoor flash photography, it's true perhaps portrait orientation might suffer in some shots, but I'm willing to cope with that prospect over the idea of having misfires and an extra awkward item and weight mounted to the camera.

By far the most pleasing softest direct light I have ever attached to an on camera system that allows for firing directly at the subject (ie can be used outdoors) is the Roundflash softbox.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'll admit, though, that I haven't read all your posts in detail so I might be unaware of requirements that explain your constraints/desires.
My entire gripe and point of this thread is that I can only use P-TTL or 1/1 with a maximum of 1/200 shutter speed for the 360II and my roundflash, and it's slightly frustrating because when in P-TTL, the very nature of that system acts more as a fill. For example, I can have my camera settings as;

1/200
ISO 100
-1ev
F2.8
+2.0 ev comp in flash
+1.0 flash comp in camera

and be standing 3-4m back from the subject to take the shot. In P-TTL the light barely touches the subject, hardly even having an impact on shadows, in Manual mode however (Still same settings but now I can be at 1/1 power) the subject is smothered with the flash light, possibly even too much, so I know the flash has the power to do the kinda shots I want (at least at 1/200), it's just that P-TTL errs on the side of caution that little too much. And furthermore, if I wanted to go to say 1/320 of a second, f1.8 for example, I just can't in Manual mode.

So with my roundflash, its like P-TTL is great for indoor shots, outside Manual mode is better, but I'm capped at 1/200
02-18-2019, 04:46 AM   #21
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 10,017
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Are you saying... I could buy some small trigger that sits in the K-1 hotshoe,...
Yes, but your V6II would do as well.

Note, though, that the "pistol starter method" would require you to release the shutter via a radio trigger; you wouldn't be able to use the shutter button of your camera anymore.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
...almost like an adapter, and then mount the RF60x on that,...
I wasn't thinking of an on-camera solution.

What you want could still be achievable by just placing the RF60X on top of the V6II and insulating its centre pin contact so that it doesn't make contact with the V6II. A small piece of paper was sufficient in my testing. You'd leave the RF60X in "S" (slave) mode and would just manually control it from the V6II. Of course, this setup depends on your RF60X to fire reliably in such close proximity to the V6II. With the "WORK RANGE" of the V6II set to "SHORT", I didn't have any issues in my testing, but of course your own experience is what matters.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Disagree. A great deal of indoor shots with on camera flash can help.
I don't think we disagree. Of course indoors bounce flash is often a great idea. However, having the flash on a stand significantly extends your bouncing options. If an extra stand is too much hassle or a liability, you can still use bounce flash with a flash on a bracket.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
My experience with flash brackets and Cactus has been less than impressive. Despite settings comms to short range, there were (for me) still a high count of misfires.
Well, in this case, this option isn't useful, of course.
I've tried the RF60 on a flash bracket and had no issues with misfires.
Potentially, if you are desperate, you could use some material (foil?) around the V6II or RF60 to dampen the radio signal?
Just a (possibly dumb) idea.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
...because when in P-TTL, the very nature of that system acts more as a fill.
Well, it sucks that apparently even exhausting all flash compensation available it is still not possible to incite the flash output one is after.
That's one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of P-TTL.

If you can get the RF60X to work (either using your V6II or another HSS-capable trigger, or through the "pistol starter" method, then manual control over HSS output would be available.
02-18-2019, 05:10 AM   #22
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,586
I think the point is being missed that Bruce is comparing P-TTL HSS with manual full power .....I imagine that once past the max sync speed then Bruce was just exceeding the power capabilities of his GN 36 flash, which will always be stretched outdoors in HSS scenarios, and he's using a diffusser as well. It's true that the TTL metering will aim to provide a fill in level, but ultimately the range is probably exceeded.


(Having looked back to Bruce's earlier posts) .... Bruce did not report the shutter speed being used when he experienced the "underwhelming" level of P-TTL flash output, but he did say he was shooting at ISO 100, F2.8, and at between -1 and -2 EV ..... so that suggests (in sunshine) that he was into HSS territory, so my assumption is that the low flash output was the result of the range being exceeded for HSS work. When he switched to Manual 1/1 power, he said that the aperture was stopping down automatically (obviously to compensate for the now longer exposure time of 1/200th) .... so this all suggests that he is comparing P-TTL HSS with Manual 1/1 .... an extremely unfair comparison!


Even if he was using the Godox TT350P in Manual HSS mode at 1/1 power, then it seems likely that in the same circumstances then this flash would also struggle, as it has the same or near GN as the Pentax flash.


Going back to the P-TTL scenario .... if the GN number of the flash was higher (a more powerful model) or the working distances closer, then even if the default metering produced too low an exposure on the face, then +2.0 FC would be more easily able to bring the extra brightness that Bruce is wanting. Of course all of this information on distances is available on the flash Distance / Range indicator. Keeping well within the indicated limits is the way to go .

Last edited by mcgregni; 02-18-2019 at 12:57 PM.
02-18-2019, 01:07 PM - 1 Like   #23
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,586
QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
But now I think the 540II in P-TTL and HSS might be doing similar 'underpowered' shots, even when setting everything to max. Can the 540II go way higher than +2.0 in HSS?

No, the 540II has a range of -4.0 through +2.0 FC. A compensation setting is a fixed amount of variance from a moving and fluctuating metered exposure value. Assuming that the metered level would be fairly correct, then +2.0 is a lot of extra exposure, likely to overexpose. But this assumes of course that the range limitations are not exceeded. But if you needed +2.0 for some reason, then the 540II flash would be able to provide it at greater distances than the 360. Within their distance limits, then both flashes should expose the metered subject exactly the same.


Thought of another way, there should be no reason to have a setting of more than +2.0 FC on a flash .... because if everything is working correctly and within the operating limits, then +2.0 is likely to be overexposed. There is a greater need for more range for minus compensations, as we might want to lower the exposure for creative effect.


None of this is at all related to the maximum and minimum manual power levels the flash offers .... the FC settings are not related to the manual power limits, they are offsets from a moving metered output level, that can vary with every shot. Whether +2.0 FC ends up being the same output as 1/1 is entirely co-incidental, based on the default metered "0" level. Likewise, -4.0 FC might only co-incidentally end up being the same as 1/64th, 1/256 etc (the lowest manual output). There is no relationship between the two at all.


Last edited by mcgregni; 02-18-2019 at 01:53 PM.
02-18-2019, 02:36 PM   #24
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
BruceBanner's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,289
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Yes, but your V6II would do as well.

Note, though, that the "pistol starter method" would require you to release the shutter via a radio trigger; you wouldn't be able to use the shutter button of your camera anymore.


I wasn't thinking of an on-camera solution.

What you want could still be achievable by just placing the RF60X on top of the V6II and insulating its centre pin contact so that it doesn't make contact with the V6II. A small piece of paper was sufficient in my testing. You'd leave the RF60X in "S" (slave) mode and would just manually control it from the V6II. Of course, this setup depends on your RF60X to fire reliably in such close proximity to the V6II. With the "WORK RANGE" of the V6II set to "SHORT", I didn't have any issues in my testing, but of course your own experience is what matters.


I don't think we disagree. Of course indoors bounce flash is often a great idea. However, having the flash on a stand significantly extends your bouncing options. If an extra stand is too much hassle or a liability, you can still use bounce flash with a flash on a bracket.


Well, in this case, this option isn't useful, of course.
I've tried the RF60 on a flash bracket and had no issues with misfires.
Potentially, if you are desperate, you could use some material (foil?) around the V6II or RF60 to dampen the radio signal?
Just a (possibly dumb) idea.


Well, it sucks that apparently even exhausting all flash compensation available it is still not possible to incite the flash output one is after.
That's one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of P-TTL.

If you can get the RF60X to work (either using your V6II or another HSS-capable trigger, or through the "pistol starter" method, then manual control over HSS output would be available.
Thanks for that.

Well it appears stacking anything more than a single flash won't work anyway, as once you put a v6ii and a flash on that I can't get it through the hole of the roundflash softbox lol. It really is intended for a single flash on a hotshoe to poke inside.

The only solution is to perhaps use a stand and then have the round flash off camera... not the most crazy idea, a small portable softbox if you will.
The thing about the roundflash is it's very small and portable, when I shoot events it folds into a small little circular pouch thing that dangles off my waist. It's no problem to ferry around at all, and set up is pretty speedy. It's also true that I also tend to have a tripod or monopod with me as well, so I should in theory be able to rig up a rf60x to the tripod and place the round flash on that and then be good to go. I've thought numerous times to purchase one of those monopods with the three pronged feet, just for this kinda purpose (but without the roundflash, instead a magmod boob or magbounce). I just don't know however if the weight of a rf60x and attachement would be enough to tipple the monopod over, I mean clearly the monopod is supposed to be held at all times. But for flat surfaces (indoors), no wind, I am curious how rigid it can be. I'm guessing it's asking for trouble tho

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
I think the point is being missed that Bruce is comparing P-TTL HSS with manual full power .....I imagine that once past the max sync speed then Bruce was just exceeding the power capabilities of his GN 36 flash, which will always be stretched outdoors in HSS scenarios, and he's using a diffusser as well. It's true that the TTL metering will aim to provide a fill in level, but ultimately the range is probably exceeded.


(Having looked back to Bruce's earlier posts) .... Bruce did not report the shutter speed being used when he experienced the "underwhelming" level of P-TTL flash output, but he did say he was shooting at ISO 100, F2.8, and at between -1 and -2 EV ..... so that suggests (in sunshine) that he was into HSS territory, so my assumption is that the low flash output was the result of the range being exceeded for HSS work. When he switched to Manual 1/1 power, he said that the aperture was stopping down automatically (obviously to compensate for the now longer exposure time of 1/200th) .... so this all suggests that he is comparing P-TTL HSS with Manual 1/1 .... an extremely unfair comparison!


Even if he was using the Godox TT350P in Manual HSS mode at 1/1 power, then it seems likely that in the same circumstances then this flash would also struggle, as it has the same or near GN as the Pentax flash.


Going back to the P-TTL scenario .... if the GN number of the flash was higher (a more powerful model) or the working distances closer, then even if the default metering produced too low an exposure on the face, then +2.0 FC would be more easily able to bring the extra brightness that Bruce is wanting. Of course all of this information on distances is available on the flash Distance / Range indicator. Keeping well within the indicated limits is the way to go .
I'll have to get you some proper figures as mostly I was just illustrating the point. Thing is there is HSS (1/320) and then there's HSS (1/5000!).

My examples were actually P-TTL not in HSS verses manual power

I'll have to do some proper shots with Davo, record camera and flash settings and do some posting with images, but it'll have to wait awhile, I have a full week at work and then a b'day party to prepare for on the weekend.

What I recall quite vividly is having a few test shots with my mannequin 'Davo' inside my house and then on my verandah (where there was a lot more light coming in, not direct sunlight but just a lot brighter).
The long and short of it, inside P-TTL was great, and on the verandah too... to a point. +2.0 was indeed overkill when shooting the subject relatively close proximity. It was around this time I got curious and decided to step quite a few meters back and observe what was happening to the Davo (at this time I could capture all of Davo, head to toes), still in P-TTL mode here. I saw two things;

1)) that despite having the Zoom set to 85mm the flash was still illuminating the entire room a lot, it was hard to get 'subject isolation', i don't know if placing a maggrid on the flash and then going into the round flash will further concentrate the beam of light coming out and place more central, but it felt as though the flash light was overpowering the ambient light. Curious I thought because when you shoot closer to the subject this effect doesn't feel so pronounced and you feel there is a better mix of ambient and flash light combined (like a head and shoulder kinda shot)...

2) +2.0 was still plenty of power and overkill in a indoor setting (for this setup, roundflash, direct at subject etc. I get it that high ceilings and bouncing direct onto those high ceilings, you may well need that +2.0).

It's around this time I thought to test just a bit further and moved Davo to my verandah where it was brighter (as well as overlooking into far off distances, seeing trees and the like etc). Still not completely justifying the need for HSS, I took the same position as before and stepped a good 3-4m back from the subject, perhaps even a little more, trying to mimic the distance I had indoors where P-TTL was still managing to illuminate the place significantly. Still in P-TTL mode here I was a little stunned, it was as if the shot and never fired. I turned the 360II off, took a shot, compared, repeated, triple checked, yep... at this distance in a brighter area, the P-TTL was having little effect. So incomes the increase in Flash compensation, bumping right up to +2.0 (and then I also increased the flash in the K-1 in the menu to being +1.0... by the way does this actually help or do anything, do the two flash compensations work together or...?) and still the results were less than impressive, a mild improvement, shadows from davo barely being lifted. But during these tests I cannot recall if I was hitting the Sync button and putting the 360II into HSS, or whether this was 1/200 P-TTL, so I'll repeat and get back to you on that.

And so began the thought process of "Hmm... maybe I should bail out of P-TTL for these kinda situations (brighter conditions) and instead force my flash into 1/1 power in manual mode... I wonder if it succeeds better?" and with trialling I learned that I lost HSS

I did however manage to stay in the exact same spot as before, use 1/200 and then Av shift the shot and use 1/1 manual power, night and day difference! Davo was now very well lit up in a fairly bright area and the ambient light not overly affected too much. I learned that the 360II actually has a heck of a lot of power, it's just not (possibly) being exploited in P-TTL too much, erring on the side of caution/fill-light with no way to really tell it to 'try harder', and that I lose HSS in Manual mode
It could be however as you say, I was in P-TTL HSS vs 1/1 Manual mode, an unfair battle indeed! And if this is the case then perhaps I don't need to be in Manual Mode ever, just stay P-TTL and be capped at 1/200 and stop down, the +2.0 flash exposure compensation may be a enough if we limit the shutter speed to 1/200, I'll just need to Green Button and Av the shot first to make sure I am exposed correctly for situations where 1/200 is not sufficient if trying to shoot f2

As you're saying, even if I got my hands on the TT350 and was in Manual Mode with HSS, the results may be pretty unflattering at times. I guess it all depends on how far you're pushing HSS? I mean if you really want to shoot at f3.5 and not being able to expose correctly at 1/200, but all it takes is a leap to 1/400, then that kinda sucks because it might be kinda possible, but how I have things currently I have to use 1/200 and then take the shot at f5.6/6.3 (I'm making those values up clearly ), but you get the point. I'm not trying to be unrealistic and shoot 1/1 at 1/5000 at f1.8 and expect things to be brilliant

It might not be a big deal, not really... I mean... what my experience tells me is that when you are taking portrait shots of someone close up, that's when you need a softbox, and in this regard the P-TTL system is fine, even in outdoors HSS needed places, as long as you're shooting 1-2m away max etc, you're deriving some benefit from the flash and softbox. When you do those 'environmental' portrait shots where the model is not the main subject, even bare flash isn't that bad outdoors as we're not inspecting up close the shadow lines cast from the flash, we just want to see the people 'punched out' of the shot a little more.
02-18-2019, 03:04 PM   #25
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 136
I see Bruce used HSS successfully in the photo of the two girls he posted, at least that's what the EXIF data shows for the photo over on Flickr (FA77, ISO 400, 1/500 sec, f/1.8. In any event, I think it would be a good idea for Bruce to ditch the round softbox diffuser, at least initially, as that seems to the the limiting factor regarding the AF360FGZ II in both P-TTL and HSS. At the least, doing so would help determine what affect it is having on exposure.

Again, I don't get the exposure compensation, flash exposure compensation, and green button stuff. I'd keep it simple, shoot in Manual mode which is simple using the exposure scale in the viewfinder to determine ambient exposure. If you want the ambient one stop under exposed, simply raise the shutter speed or close down the aperture one stop. Then try the flash in P-TTL and HSS modes, adjusting flash exposure compensation as may be required. If they're inadequate, go to manual flash.

Then put the diffuser back on the flash and see if you can get the exposure you want.

If more power is needed, the Shanny 600FGZ does both P-TTL and HSS, and is only about $120 here in the US.
02-18-2019, 03:51 PM   #26
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,586
Yes, the Shanny does pack a lot of P-TTL / HSS punch for the money!

Also Bruce, you should not be shooting flash at ISO 400 and 1/500th, as there is 2 stops of ambient exposure reduction being wasted there, and you're going into HSS mode needlessly. There is no point to using any ISO apart from 100 when using HSS outdoors in bright light.
02-19-2019, 07:53 AM   #27
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Dec 2017
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 405
I have been unable so far to take the time to read all of the above carefully, but what I sensed is an assumption by Bruce that the HSS mode should put out as much integrated radiant intensity during the high speed shutter opening as the single flash mode would within a normal X-sync shutter opening. This cannot happen due to electrical inefficiencies in the flash circuitry unless the manufacturer deliberately under-rates the single flash mode relative to the flash's inherent capacitor energy storage and flash cooling capability -- a ploy that is unlikely to ever get past the sales department.

As I think was implied in the guide number discussion, even in manual mode a flash is going to have less output in HSS operation.
02-19-2019, 10:08 AM - 1 Like   #28
Pentaxian
mcgregni's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 2,586
It started with the question about why P-TTL metered exposures were coming out too dark, but unfortunately we lacked clarification on whether we were talking about HSS mode also ..... I believe probably Bruce had slipped into HSS mode (based on analysis of the other settings, in sunlight). The Pentax flash allows this seamlessly once set to HS sync, so it is easy to not realise you are in HSS mode unless actively monitoring the shutter speed. The problem is that Bruce does not use Manual camera mode, and so his shutter speed changes without his active control. But I have given advice on this too many times before!


He also said that he had stood back more, so it seems likely that the range limitation was exceeded, which is why extra plus compensations made no difference. It is still possible that a Manual mode HSS output could be stronger, once the metering aspect is removed (because in bright sun the metering will always attempt to provide a mixed, fill-in level of flash exposure, so it is automatically reduced somewhat. If there was very little ambient light being recorded then the metering would try and pump out more ..... but of course, this only applies indoors, because if we wiped out a lot of ambient light with our settings outdoors, we would likely be using shutter speeds of 1/1000th or even less! In which case the flash would struggle even more ......especially a GN 36 one with a Roundbox on it.

---------- Post added 19-02-19 at 17:20 ----------

The only real answer is to place the flash very close to the subject. Here's one that many will have seen before, but it illustrates the point .... RF60x in softbox, approx. 3ft from the face ..... manual HSS mode, at 1/8th power ...... ISO 100, F5.6, 1/800th sec .....So there was still 3 stops more power if needed, and I had reduced the background to about -1.5 stops below meter centre.





But honestly, if I tried to do this with an on camera AF-360FGZ, with diffusion, from 4 meters away, well, I'd be p***ing into the wind!

I suppose the main point here is to illustrate the power of close flash placement. My shot was taken at ISO100, F5.6 and 1/800th, and I still only needed 1/8th power.

I didn't have P-TTL available at the time, but now I have no reason to doubt that the exact same image could be taken with the Cactus system in TTL .....perhaps I'd need a small amount of plus compensation, say +0.7 or 1.0 ....

Last edited by mcgregni; 02-19-2019 at 11:50 AM.
02-19-2019, 12:47 PM - 2 Likes   #29
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 136
The truth be told, this whole issue could be understood fully (hopefully) with pencil and paper. By way of example, take the Sunny 16 Rule, or shooting at f/16, ISO 100, and 1/100 sec on a bright, sunny day. Then if you wanted to underexpose ambient by one stop and use an aperture of 2.8 on that bright sunny day, you'd need to use HSS mode and your shutter speed would need to be increased by six stops (one stop for underexposing the ambient by one stop and an additional five stops to compensate for opening the aperture those five stops from f/16 to f/2.8). Increasing the shutter speed by six stops take us from 1/100 sec to 1/6400. If we use 1/6000 sec which is close enough for this example, we find that the GN for that speed is 4.3. Using the GN formula, we'd need to place that bare speedlight about 1.5 meters or less in order to use HSS. If add a diffuser, you'd need to place the light even closer.

If you step up to the AF540FGZ II, you'd need to place the flash about 2.25 meters or closer to the subject.
02-19-2019, 07:03 PM   #30
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
BruceBanner's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,289
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
I see Bruce used HSS successfully in the photo of the two girls he posted, at least that's what the EXIF data shows for the photo over on Flickr (FA77, ISO 400, 1/500 sec, f/1.8. In any event, I think it would be a good idea for Bruce to ditch the round softbox diffuser, at least initially, as that seems to the the limiting factor regarding the AF360FGZ II in both P-TTL and HSS. At the least, doing so would help determine what affect it is having on exposure.

Again, I don't get the exposure compensation, flash exposure compensation, and green button stuff. I'd keep it simple, shoot in Manual mode which is simple using the exposure scale in the viewfinder to determine ambient exposure. If you want the ambient one stop under exposed, simply raise the shutter speed or close down the aperture one stop. Then try the flash in P-TTL and HSS modes, adjusting flash exposure compensation as may be required. If they're inadequate, go to manual flash.

Then put the diffuser back on the flash and see if you can get the exposure you want.

If more power is needed, the Shanny 600FGZ does both P-TTL and HSS, and is only about $120 here in the US.
But does the Shanny allow the shutter speed to go past 1/200 in Manual Mode of the Flash? Or is it the same as the 360II and 540II and HSS is only supported when in P-TTL mode?


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Yes, the Shanny does pack a lot of P-TTL / HSS punch for the money!

Also Bruce, you should not be shooting flash at ISO 400 and 1/500th, as there is 2 stops of ambient exposure reduction being wasted there, and you're going into HSS mode needlessly. There is no point to using any ISO apart from 100 when using HSS outdoors in bright light.
Quite right, that's a booboo right there, thankfully K-1 laughs in the face of ISO 400
I have no idea how I ended up with those settings, I think Av being the culprit again and perhaps not being in Auto-ISo but actually accidentally hit the front scroll wheel (which controls ISO for me in this mode) and it set it to 400 and chose 1/500th as the shutter speed? Or ... it was Auto Iso and things just be weird?

QuoteOriginally posted by kaseki Quote
I have been unable so far to take the time to read all of the above carefully, but what I sensed is an assumption by Bruce that the HSS mode should put out as much integrated radiant intensity during the high speed shutter opening as the single flash mode would within a normal X-sync shutter opening. This cannot happen due to electrical inefficiencies in the flash circuitry unless the manufacturer deliberately under-rates the single flash mode relative to the flash's inherent capacitor energy storage and flash cooling capability -- a ploy that is unlikely to ever get past the sales department.

As I think was implied in the guide number discussion, even in manual mode a flash is going to have less output in HSS operation.
Um... I didn't understand all of that, but I kinda understand that P-TTL acts more like a fill light than a key light... this post was more to do with how I noticed that when you put the 360II in manual mode, the camera loses HSS, you can't pass 1/200. I didn't realise HSS was unique to P-TTL only (ie therefore errs more on the side of fill light), I thought HSS was right across the board. The point of this thread was to see if any other flash can actually manage HSS whilst the flash is in Manual Mode and allow the user to use higher shutter speeds than 1/200, and so the Godox one does indeed seem to manage this. I wasn't sure if it was a technical impossibility or just weirdness...


QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
It started with the question about why P-TTL metered exposures were coming out too dark, but unfortunately we lacked clarification on whether we were talking about HSS mode also ..... I believe probably Bruce had slipped into HSS mode (based on analysis of the other settings, in sunlight). The Pentax flash allows this seamlessly once set to HS sync, so it is easy to not realise you are in HSS mode unless actively monitoring the shutter speed. The problem is that Bruce does not use Manual camera mode, and so his shutter speed changes without his active control. But I have given advice on this too many times before!


He also said that he had stood back more, so it seems likely that the range limitation was exceeded, which is why extra plus compensations made no difference. It is still possible that a Manual mode HSS output could be stronger, once the metering aspect is removed (because in bright sun the metering will always attempt to provide a mixed, fill-in level of flash exposure, so it is automatically reduced somewhat. If there was very little ambient light being recorded then the metering would try and pump out more ..... but of course, this only applies indoors, because if we wiped out a lot of ambient light with our settings outdoors, we would likely be using shutter speeds of 1/1000th or even less! In which case the flash would struggle even more ......especially a GN 36 one with a Roundbox on it.

---------- Post added 19-02-19 at 17:20 ----------

The only real answer is to place the flash very close to the subject. Here's one that many will have seen before, but it illustrates the point .... RF60x in softbox, approx. 3ft from the face ..... manual HSS mode, at 1/8th power ...... ISO 100, F5.6, 1/800th sec .....So there was still 3 stops more power if needed, and I had reduced the background to about -1.5 stops below meter centre.





But honestly, if I tried to do this with an on camera AF-360FGZ, with diffusion, from 4 meters away, well, I'd be p***ing into the wind!

I suppose the main point here is to illustrate the power of close flash placement. My shot was taken at ISO100, F5.6 and 1/800th, and I still only needed 1/8th power.

I didn't have P-TTL available at the time, but now I have no reason to doubt that the exact same image could be taken with the Cactus system in TTL .....perhaps I'd need a small amount of plus compensation, say +0.7 or 1.0 ....
Haha, yes you have, and I honestly do listen! Proof... this past weekends Ironfest Promo Shoot, wanna see some nice ocf shots? All complete in non Av mode?

-------

The American.

Brenizer studio flash shot, 3 shots stitched together with the FA77 to give added depth and medium format feel.
Single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



The Technician.

Brenizer studio flash shot, 3 shots stitched together with the FA43 to give added depth and medium format feel.
Single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



The Pilot.

FA77 + single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



The Cameraman.

FA43 + single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



Peace.

Well what else can it mean when a Soviet stands with a German.
Brenizer studio flash shot, 3 shots stitched together with the FA43 to give added depth and medium format feel.
Single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



The Spy.

Brenizer studio flash shot, 3 shots stitched together with the FA43 to give added depth and medium format feel.
Single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.



The Aunt.

FA77 + single ocf speedlight, 120cm octagon camera right.

(one more from the series, but it's neither K-1 or FA Ltd, instead a KP and Sigma 10-20, check it out here if you like).

--------

It's just how my head currently works with photography, there's two modes I'm in, candid 'runnin & gunnin' (typically Av is my choice for this, failing that it's Manual Mode and Green buttoning, depending on lens), or studio 'formal' which is manual all the way. For manual shooting I'm either in Manual but actually I prefer X Mode (and green buttoning) as I can get a proper exposure on the back of the lcd regardless of what the ambient light is, and I use Face Detection or Tracking as my AF Live View preference mode. I hardly use the OVF any more

I'm trying to improve my flash work for running and gunning, typically it's just ceiling bounce or behind bounce, but there is 'outside' running and gunning, and that's where the Roundflash and this whole issue came to be.
I think however you may well be right, the Av mode and 360II is not a good combo, you have to continually be aware that the flash might toggle out of HSS just because you put the camera down for a second, come back up for a shot and now it's toggled off because it was looking at a dark spot at your feet etc.
Golden hours are great times to shoot, and it's still HSS time but not 1/8000 kinda HSS time, I'm simply trying to see how far I can push using a roundflash outside in fairly bright conditions, (HSS worthy) and still reach the subject adequately. My testing on the weekend was pretty poor in this regard, however slipping out of P-TTL (and possibly HSS) and toggling into Manual Mode and forcing the flash to being 1/1, the results were promising! It was just a shame that I was capped at 1/200 and therefore when I green buttoned (Av shift) I was given quite a severe stopped down number, not like the wide open shots I tend to favour and enjoy.

I have to say, I'm pretty curious about that little Godox fella. You see for me, when I need real power in my flashes, it's for ocf stuff. The only time or situation that I might need or want a super powerful flash on camera is for this one situation, me shooting with a roundflash attached and having a good bit of distance between me and the subject. I know my 360II actually has enough power to get me to the target, it's just a shame the camera settings are forced to be 1/200 f8 vs 1/1000 and f2.8 for example (I of course made those numbers up, but you get my point).

PS, nice shot of the girl by the way

QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
The truth be told, this whole issue could be understood fully (hopefully) with pencil and paper. By way of example, take the Sunny 16 Rule, or shooting at f/16, ISO 100, and 1/100 sec on a bright, sunny day. Then if you wanted to underexpose ambient by one stop and use an aperture of 2.8 on that bright sunny day, you'd need to use HSS mode and your shutter speed would need to be increased by six stops (one stop for underexposing the ambient by one stop and an additional five stops to compensate for opening the aperture those five stops from f/16 to f/2.8). Increasing the shutter speed by six stops take us from 1/100 sec to 1/6400. If we use 1/6000 sec which is close enough for this example, we find that the GN for that speed is 4.3. Using the GN formula, we'd need to place that bare speedlight about 1.5 meters or less in order to use HSS. If add a diffuser, you'd need to place the light even closer.

If you step up to the AF540FGZ II, you'd need to place the flash about 2.25 meters or closer to the subject.
Maths was never my strong point
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
3rd, 3rd party flash, ambient, bit, cables, camera, filter, flash, flash for pentax, hss, ii, level, light, lighting, max, mode, p-ttl, party, pentax, pentax that hss, photo studio, shutter, strobist, sync, system
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3rd Party Development for Pentax P-TTL and HSS with Studio Strobes EUPPhotography Product Suggestions and Feedback 22 09-30-2017 03:44 PM
Starting to test Godox HSS with Cactus V6ii, HSS works in AV mode? jake14mw Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 6 04-13-2017 07:30 AM
Pentax hot shoe adapter + off shoe adapter - any limits on the flashes used? MSL Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 4 10-25-2014 06:13 AM
Hot shoe won't trigger in manual mode - sometimes yasha Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 2 03-29-2009 07:22 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:45 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top