[West Penn]

I have to say, I'm pretty curious about that little Godox fella. You see for me, when I need real power in my flashes, it's for ocf stuff. The only time or situation that I might need or want a super powerful flash on camera is for this one situation, me shooting with a roundflash attached and having a good bit of distance between me and the subject. I know my 360II actually has enough power to get me to the target, it's just a shame the camera settings are forced to be 1/200 f8 vs 1/1000 and f2.8 for example (I of course made those numbers up, but you get my point).


Maths was never my strong point

Just a couple of final points on this. If you want to shoot HSS at 1/1000 and f/2.8, you simply have to look in the manual for what distances are possible. You do that by dividing the guide number by the aperture to get the maximum distance the AF360FGZ II can be from the subject in HSS mode. And, the answer is -- 9.5 divided by 2.8 equals about 3.4 meters. That's the max distance with a bare flash. It's that simple. Use a calculator! Now if you put a diffuser on top of the flash you are further limiting the distance you can be from the subject. You simply need to figure out how much light you're loosing by using the roundflash diffuser and then factor that into the equation. If you're losing one stop of light with the diffuser, simply divide 9.5 by 4 (it's like now shooting at f/4).

Regarding that Godox tt350p flash, it has the same guide number as the Pentax 360FGZ, so it's unlikely that it will do better in HSS mode even if it's possible to do HSS in Manual mode. It's simply the nature of HSS. At and below sync speed there can be up to a full power blast of light. In HSS, there are multiple flashes, each of which is a fraction of full power.

[mcgregni]

PS, nice shot of the girl by the way

.... Thanks! I like your War event shots also, although I wonder if you could allow a bit more ambient to record and a bit less flash (I mean change the balance a little away from the flash and more towards the ambient_ .... that might mean using a higher ISO or longer exposure time, and less flash power). Just a personal response to that issue, but they're great subjects and captured really well in their "environment"!


And BTW, I think everyone here knows that you are capable of getting really good flash shots, and in fact I envy the opportunities you seem to have, both with people to photograph and the beautiful sunlit environments you have available ..... I wish I had those chances myself. So don't worry, you get cut a lot of slack around here because you produce good looking images ..... people forgive the gaps in the basic knowledge I think!


What I think you need, and especially because of your professional ambitions, is to gain the technical knowledge to be able to fully control things, all the time, and to able to repeat your good results all the time .... that's the real jump towards professional work. So I'll go through a few of your comments and give my reactions ....

You see for me, when I need real power in my flashes, it's for ocf stuff

.... No! You need much more power for your outdoors on-camera HSS stuff, because you're further away from the subject and the power loss once you jump into HSS mode is so significant. You've had some maths guidance, but don't forget your Pentax flash shows you the flash to subject distance working range on the display, so keep within these limits and you should be able to get the power you need from it.


Your indoors OCF work probably needs much less power, because you can place the lights so much closer to the subject, like I did with my daughter out in the countryside there, with the softbox less than 3 ft away , and still use my (GN 56) flash at 1/8th power in HSS mode.

I have to say, I'm pretty curious about that little Godox fella

...... we know that's not going to work, don't try to convince yourself just to buy something new ...... unless you can reduce the working distances significantly a GN 36 flash, in HSS mode with a modifier on, and at exposure times of 1/500 - 1/1000th etc just will not cut it!

I'm trying to improve my flash work for running and gunning, typically it's just ceiling bounce or behind bounce, but there is 'outside' running and gunning, and that's where the Roundflash and this whole issue came to be.

I seriously think you should abandon the whole concept of "running and gunning" with flash work .... I mean the mental approach has to change. Of course you need to be mobile and adapt to a moving subject outdoors ....there has to be flexibility, but I think this idea of "running and gunning" is making you take your eyes off the ball. Successful, reliable and consistent flash photography needs a methodical and fully controlled technique, regardless of whether the situation is dynamic or static. By persisting with auto exposure modes, auto ISO, green button etc you are simply not giving yourself any chance to learn how to take full and proper control over the essential exposure parameters. You didn't even know for sure at the start of this whether your shot was taken in HS sync and at what shutter speed ..... that's the sort of awareness that has to be second nature, and it comes from taking a much firmer grip over things, in all situations when using flash.

I know my 360II actually has enough power to get me to the target, it's just a shame the camera settings are forced to be 1/200 f8 vs 1/1000 and f2.8 for example (I of course made those numbers up, but you get my point).

.... No! Don't keep making up the numbers ..... always force yourself to think through the stop differences and how one balances out the other, in exact figures, because when you're out taking photos with everything fully under control, you need to have this awareness and quick ability to figure these adjustments to efficiently apply them on the camera ..... so F8 opened up to F2.8 is (F8 - F5.6 - F4 - F2.8) 3 stops ..... so 1/200 plus 3 stops is (1/200 - 1/400 - 1/800 - 1/1600) 1/1600.


Ultimately, time spent working through this sort of stuff in a clear and methodical way, is worth massively more to you than worrying about modes, Av shifts, Auto ISO settings and green buttons, or how camera metering algorithms are programmed.


Have you tried looking at the flash distance indicator on your AF360FGZ (the line of bars along the bottom of the display) ? In manual mode this is really useful; as you adjust the ISO and Aperture you will see the distance indicator tell you the correct distance for the power setting you have. You can adjust any of the parameters (ISO, Aperture , Power) and see the indicator change instantly. Also in HS sync mode this indicator will also adjust for shutter speed changes ..... so you can easily gain instant feedback on on the effects of each change you make to settings, and see it in a stop by stop fashion. Very useful! Of course the figures apply to direct bare flash ..... you have to factor in for diffusion and bounce, but its a great way to start gaining a real accurate feel for the output capabilities of your flash in any situation .......


There is of course a detailed explanation of the Range / Distance indicator in my "Pentax Flash Guide", the Main Guide PDF, and how to use it in both P-TTL and Manual modes.

[BruceBanner]

Just a couple of final points on this. If you want to shoot HSS at 1/1000 and f/2.8, you simply have to look in the manual for what distances are possible. You do that by dividing the guide number by the aperture to get the maximum distance the AF360FGZ II can be from the subject in HSS mode. And, the answer is -- 9.5 divided by 2.8 equals about 3.4 meters. That's the max distance with a bare flash. It's that simple. Use a calculator! Now if you put a diffuser on top of the flash you are further limiting the distance you can be from the subject. You simply need to figure out how much light you're loosing by using the roundflash diffuser and then factor that into the equation. If you're losing one stop of light with the diffuser, simply divide 9.5 by 4 (it's like now shooting at f/4).

Regarding that Godox tt350p flash, it has the same guide number as the Pentax 360FGZ, so it's unlikely that it will do better in HSS mode even if it's possible to do HSS in Manual mode. It's simply the nature of HSS. At and below sync speed there can be up to a full power blast of light. In HSS, there are multiple flashes, each of which is a fraction of full power.

Thanks again. I'm still a little confused in that I can't detach HSS from P-TTL, and because P-TTL acts differently to Manual (errs on the side of caution/fill light and controls power output) my thoughts on HSS are thinking it's 'constrained'.

For example. I'm in a room that shooting 1/200 is 'comfortable', the subject is 3.5m away, and in P-TTL mode the amount of light hitting the subject is low (even +2/0 Flash EV comp). Switch to Manual 1/1 and it's night and day difference in fact too much light is reaching the target. Now at this point we're not even in HSS, so even if we go to 1/300 in P-TTL HSS, the results are still going to be underwhelming, whereas when I was in 1/1 I had overkill power, so if I COULD switch to 1/300 and use 1/1 power then it might have been enough. What I had to contend with was 1/1 and 1/200 but this time have the aperture leave a wider aperture and instead close down more.

In some ways this thread isn't about HSS at all, it's about HSS being attached to the hip of P-TTL, and I'm curious now how HSS is in full Manual control. So obviously the fact I'm writing this illustrates I don't understand any of this stuff yet

.... Thanks! I like your War event shots also, although I wonder if you could allow a bit more ambient to record and a bit less flash (I mean change the balance a little away from the flash and more towards the ambient_ .... that might mean using a higher ISO or longer exposure time, and less flash power). Just a personal response to that issue, but they're great subjects and captured really well in their "environment"!




And BTW, I think everyone here knows that you are capable of getting really good flash shots, and in fact I envy the opportunities you seem to have, both with people to photograph and the beautiful sunlit environments you have available ..... I wish I had those chances myself. So don't worry, you get cut a lot of slack around here because you produce good looking images ..... people forgive the gaps in the basic knowledge I think!
[/B]

Thanks! I actually did a far better balance of rendering ambient with flash at the time, the strong contrast is actually more or less to do with the choice of chosen old school film simulation rendering software, namely RNI for LR. When I first toggled a few of these on I was like "Oh... I dunno if I like that... I'm losing all my lovely ambient shadows and the flash looks very bright on the subject" etc, but it fits with the theme and stay long enough with the change and you start to appreciate it more (ie toggling back to the original now looks 'weak contrasty etc' (eyes adapted). Had these shots been 'as is' I would totally agree with you, too much punch with flash, too dark surroundings.

I do hope people go easy on me I think I must be Pentax's most untechnical shooter ever. I failed my school education so this stuff doesn't come easy to me, but I hope the odd submission of a few images here or there can help people realise I'm worth saving!

What I think you need, and especially because of your professional ambitions, is to gain the technical knowledge to be able to fully control things, all the time, and to able to repeat your good results all the time .... that's the real jump towards professional work. So I'll go through a few of your comments and give my reactions ....

You're completely right. In my heart and mind when I do shoots like this, I go in having a 70% confidence of producing the right results, but I know deep inside I am not in full control of my light. My photography comrades are blown away by my results, they want me to come to their camera club and do a talk on flash photography! Me! AHAHAHAHAhahaha.... can you imagine ANYTHING WORSE?! Of course I said no, it would be worse than the blind leading the blind. I said perhaps in a years time I can help but right now I am very much on the learning curve and nowhere near leaving it any time soon Problem is they think I am pro and I am holding back secret knowledge or something

.... No! You need much more power for your outdoors on-camera HSS stuff, because you're further away from the subject and the power loss once you jump into HSS mode is so significant. You've had some maths guidance, but don't forget your Pentax flash shows you the flash to subject distance working range on the display, so keep within these limits and you should be able to get the power you need from it.


Your indoors OCF work probably needs much less power, because you can place the lights so much closer to the subject, like I did with my daughter out in the countryside there, with the softbox less than 3 ft away , and still use my (GN 56) flash at 1/8th power in HSS mode.


...... we know that's not going to work, don't try to convince yourself just to buy something new ...... unless you can reduce the working distances significantly a GN 36 flash, in HSS mode with a modifier on, and at exposure times of 1/500 - 1/1000th etc just will not cut it!

Oh, yes I agree outdoors, I mean indoors running and gunning, P-TTL is fine etc. When I need more power it's due to bouncing flash from within a softbox I meant, and how I lose power in those instances. Regarding the softbox placement on that shoot. I did have it close to the subjects for the FA43 and FA77 shots, but did you see the wide angle Sigma 10-20 shot as well taken with the KP (swapped over the V6ii trigger). I wanted a different perspective for that shot which involved moving it further back, and thus having to alter the power.
I did some more shoots later that day (still to edit) where I toggled between FA43, 77 and the 10-20. Each time using the 10-20 framing was hard trying to keep the softbox out of the way, so I think actually if those kinda shoots come into play I am happier to have more power coming from the shots and not having to adjust the stand constantly, especially when there is a bit of a que building up for the shoot...

I seriously think you should abandon the whole concept of "running and gunning" with flash work .... I mean the mental approach has to change. Of course you need to be mobile and adapt to a moving subject outdoors ....there has to be flexibility, but I think this idea of "running and gunning" is making you take your eyes off the ball. Successful, reliable and consistent flash photography needs a methodical and fully controlled technique, regardless of whether the situation is dynamic or static. By persisting with auto exposure modes, auto ISO, green button etc you are simply not giving yourself any chance to learn how to take full and proper control over the essential exposure parameters. You didn't even know for sure at the start of this whether your shot was taken in HS sync and at what shutter speed ..... that's the sort of awareness that has to be second nature, and it comes from taking a much firmer grip over things, in all situations when using flash.

.... No! Don't keep making up the numbers ..... always force yourself to think through the stop differences and how one balances out the other, in exact figures, because when you're out taking photos with everything fully under control, you need to have this awareness and quick ability to figure these adjustments to efficiently apply them on the camera ..... so F8 opened up to F2.8 is (F8 - F5.6 - F4 - F2.8) 3 stops ..... so 1/200 plus 3 stops is (1/200 - 1/400 - 1/800 - 1/1600) 1/1600.

I don't I feel I have 'mastered' natural light shooting, I am now trying to move onto understanding the flash running and gunning side of things, P-TTL and all that. I'm here to learn and learn I must

Haha, I'll prolly keep making up numbers just because I'm lazy and always typing these responses before rushing off to work
I need some kinda chart, so that I can see x at y exposure is the same as w at z. I guess with ISO it gets pretty confusing and such a chart is impossible to make?

Ultimately, time spent working through this sort of stuff in a clear and methodical way, is worth massively more to you than worrying about modes, Av shifts, Auto ISO settings and green buttons, or how camera metering algorithms are programmed.


Have you tried looking at the flash distance indicator on your AF360FGZ (the line of bars along the bottom of the display) ? In manual mode this is really useful; as you adjust the ISO and Aperture you will see the distance indicator tell you the correct distance for the power setting you have. You can adjust any of the parameters (ISO, Aperture , Power) and see the indicator change instantly. Also in HS sync mode this indicator will also adjust for shutter speed changes ..... so you can easily gain instant feedback on on the effects of each change you make to settings, and see it in a stop by stop fashion. Very useful! Of course the figures apply to direct bare flash ..... you have to factor in for diffusion and bounce, but its a great way to start gaining a real accurate feel for the output capabilities of your flash in any situation .......


There is of course a detailed explanation of the Range / Distance indicator in my "Pentax Flash Guide", the Main Guide PDF, and how to use it in both P-TTL and Manual modes.

Honestly that was the first time I saw those numbers the other day, when slipping into Manual Mode on the 360II. Like I say, typically for all my running and gunning indoor use with the 360II I use P-TTL. It was only this 'lets get further back and see what happens' with the 360II and roundflash did I even decide to toggle out of P-TTL and into Manual to see what 1/1 was actually capable of doing (through a softbox).

I still aim to replicate some of these issues over the course of the weekend. Stay tuned for more amateur hour with Bruce! For now enjoy some more weird flash stuff from the same shoot, this time outdoors!

------

"Like this?.."
"Yep.. perfect.." *Click*

OCF, single RF60x camera left.


Pride

OCF, single RF60x camera left.


The 'Boss'

OCF, single RF60x camera left.


The Horrors of War

Roundflash P-TTL

I tried a single softbox very close to the subject to begin with but it wasn't cutting it at all. I wonder now if two RF60x's would help in penetrating the softbox? It's something I'll have to try. Framing wise once again a softbox too close to the subject can work only for certain looks. I wasn't about to tripod up and take two shots, one with the lightstand in the shot and one without (and then do some masking in PS), I have done that sorta thing before in the past, but I dunno... seems a lot of work, and I think the bare flash look actually works 'ok' here (due to the era of the shoot/rendering approach).

The roundflash in HSS P-TTL shot here I think I could have done better. I think here would have been a good opportunity to slip into Manual flash, be maxed at 1/200, be stopped down but have greater control over power and therefore perhaps distance myself further back and not get such a 'warped' face look. Ah well... you live and learn.
Tough shooting conditions tho, Australian blue skies, not a cloud in the sky, harsh bright light everywhere!

Thanks again everyone! Don't give up on me!

[clackers]

Tough shooting conditions tho, Australian blue skies, not a cloud in the sky, harsh bright light everywhere!

But that's what a strobe is used for instead of a speedlight - the power.

[BruceBanner]

But that's what a strobe is used for instead of a speedlight - the power.

Yeah, this guy is too poor for a strobe :'(

A long time ago I had to decide... a Xpro P and a AD200, or stick with Cactus and grab multiple RF60x's and more V6ii's. I decided I needed multiple low powered lights more than one powerful one (all of the amounting to roughly the same cost). Seeing as the AD200 is the same power as 3 speedlights I am curious it whacking in 2x RF60x and 1x360II (optically triggered) into one softbox might get close to being adequate power for some situations... I must try it the next sunny day we get.

[clackers]

Yeah, this guy is too poor for a strobe :'(

A long time ago I had to decide... a Xpro P and a AD200, or stick with Cactus and grab multiple RF60x's and more V6ii's. I decided I needed multiple low powered lights more than one powerful one (all of the amounting to roughly the same cost). Seeing as the AD200 is the same power as 3 speedlights I am curious it whacking in 2x RF60x and 1x360II (optically triggered) into one softbox might get close to being adequate power for some situations... I must try it the next sunny day we get.

Yeah, you can buy those three in one holders to go on a light stand.

I have an AD 360 II, BTW, and must use it more. Quite small and light for what it is (so can be used outside on a monopod), time between shots is great, HSS, etc.

[stevebrot]

Thanks again. I'm still a little confused in that I can't detach HSS from P-TTL, and because P-TTL acts differently to Manual (errs on the side of caution/fill light and controls power output) my thoughts on HSS are thinking it's 'constrained'.

No reason to be confused. There is a logical explanation as to why HSS is an extension of P-TTL, but it would take many hundreds of words (thousands?) and is covered on other threads and maybe even in @mcgregni 's flash guide. Just accept it as how things are or just simply that the rules are that the flash needs to know the required flash contribution (measured in the pre-flash) in order to calculate how to do the HSS burst. Remember, the HSS logic is in the flash. All the body does is transmit how much light, the slit dwell, and when to start. The flash does all the rest. In fact, the whole transaction is done through the data contact with the X contact being cold dead through the whole thing.


Steve

[clackers]

No reason to be confused. There is a logical explanation as to why HSS is an extension of P-TTL, but it would take many hundreds of words (thousands?) and is covered on other threads and maybe even in @mcgregni 's flash guide. Just accept it as how things are or just simply that the rules are that the flash needs to know the required flash contribution (measured in the pre-flash) in order to calculate how to do the HSS burst. Remember, the HSS logic is in the flash. All the body does is transmit how much light, the slit dwell, and when to start. The flash does all the rest. In fact, the whole transaction is done through the data contact with the X contact being cold dead through the whole thing.


Steve

Sure, Steve. but Canon and Nikon don't work that way … HSS and P-TTL are independent of each other.

It's just a lovable quirk of Pentax.

[stevebrot]

Sure, Steve. but Canon and Nikon don't work that way … HSS and P-TTL are independent of each other.

...though at least for Nikon, that does not mean easy HSS for all. For example, I don't believe HSS is available other than through the dedicated hot shoe contacts or with other than chipped lenses. Pentax could probably do something similar for a flash in explicit manual mode and perhaps that would be a good idea, though it would require a little tighter integration than what we currently endure.


Steve

[BruceBanner]

Well I guess again that's where a little of my confusion comes from. I'm pretty sure I have shot the Cactus RF60x via the V6ii in Manual mode in conditions requiring HSS. I mean really I'm not thinking of HSS being tied to one or the other (P-TTL or manual), just the ability of the flash/tech to shoot over a mechanical 1/200 issue. I'm not interested in how it's all done and achieved and all that techy stuff, I was just a little surprised that the 360II wouldn't push into HSS mode in Manual mode. Perhaps I have just been being a numpty all this time and have been using TTL on my V6ii in HSS as well...? It's quite possible... I am this daft

[Class A]

... the rules are that the flash needs to know the required flash contribution (measured in the pre-flash) in order to calculate how to do the HSS burst.

Well, the flash just needs to be instructed about the required output power. The HSS burst length should always be the same (enough to cover the full travel of the shutter blades across the sensor).

It is immaterial as to whether that required output power was calculated by metering a pre-flash or not.
In other words, it is not the case that the full HSS-logic is in the flash.

The flash is more passive than that. In the case of being operated using P-TTL, a flash would first receive a request to issue a pre-flash. Then the camera would do metering and calculations and then send the flash instructions about what main flash output power is required.

The Cactus V6II with the "multi-brand" firmware variant demonstrates that the pre-flash stage is optional; the RF60X can be used as an HSS flash without issuing a pre-flash.

It is correct to say that Pentax HSS is only available through the use of the "P-TTL" flash protocol, but as the Cactus V6II + RF60X demonstrate, the system does not have to be capable of delivering any of the other features of P-TTL in order to accomplish HSS.

Any other flash that can be put into HSS mode manually (there are some from Godox as well) supports HSS shooting without P-TTL needing to be involved.
There is the challenge to get the sync timing right, but P-TTL is not necessarily required to achieve this, as my "starter pistol" method demonstrates.

P.S.: @BruceBanner I'm digging the style of your images. They've got a great look to them. Nice work!

[stevebrot]

Well, the flash just needs to be instructed about the required output power. The HSS burst length should always be the same (enough to cover the full travel of the shutter blades across the sensor).

Given that the curtain transit time varies across models and even within some models by shutter speed (highest speeds run faster), it would appear that tuning would be advantageous to preserve as high a guide number as possible. As you note, there is no issue with timing overrun except that it is inefficient. There is also (to the best of my knowledge) no firm indication of whether such information is passed. Ricoh is not talking and neither are the flash vendors who emulate the Pentax digital control protocol. Probably the only way to know for sure would be to time the HSS flash duration with several camera models having the known X-sync speeds (1/125s, 1/150s, 1/180s, 1/200s).

In the case of being operated using P-TTL, a flash would first receive a request to issue a pre-flash. Then the camera would do metering and calculations and then send the flash instructions about what main flash output power is required.

That is fine as long as the camera has access to the HSS guide number table for the flash in question. Perhaps this is passed to the camera during handshake?

As for the Cactus V6II + RF60X combination, that quite nicely demonstrates that one does not have to use (Pentax) P-TTL in order to do HSS with pre-flash. Additionally, as your "starter pistol" example demonstrates, one can do HSS by any number of means. I have done 1/4000s on my K-3 with a YN560III, fully manual of course, and with a little devious trickery (no pistol required, using regular shutter button). All that being said, the topic at hand is in regards to on-camera, full manual HSS with a Pentax dSLR. To the best of knowledge, no current model Pentax camera or available flash is able to bend the "HSS with P-TTL only" rule for to deliver that functionality, hence my stern word regards "rules" to Bruce.

P.S.: @BruceBanner I'm digging the style of your images. They've got a great look to them. Nice work!

Enthusiastically agree! BTW...also enthusiastically appreciate your ongoing contribution to community understanding of available flash options. They are much appreciated.


Steve

[Class A]

To the best of knowledge, no current model Pentax camera or available flash is able to bend the "HSS with P-TTL only" rule for to deliver that functionality,...

Well, as you said this limitation would only apply to directly "on-camera" flash.

The Godox TT350-P does support manual power control in combination with HSS on a Pentax camera. I think that's the exception you are looking for.

I have done 1/4000s on my K-3 with a YN560III, fully manual of course, and with a little devious trickery (no pistol required, using regular shutter button).

What was your "devious trickery"?
Using a "multi mode"?

[mcgregni]

It's perhaps worth also mentioning that (off camera) Manual mode HSS is provided with the XTTL firmware on Cactus, as well as TTL HSS ..... So Bruce could get a feel for the power effects with Manual mode HSS with his own equipment right now .

But so far as on camera Manual HSS goes we seem to have a (very) short list of one flash .... The Godox TT350p. Personally I wouldn't be tempted, it's not powerful enough to be much use in outdoor bright scenarios I worry, plus I always choose P-TTL for all on camera working.

[stevebrot]

What was your "devious trickery"?
Using a "multi mode"?

I triggered the YN560III optically with my Sigma EF-610 DG Super set up for low power HSS with both flash oriented such that the Sigma did not contribute to the shot.* I just did it on a whim.


Steve

* The Sigma was on a wired tether to the camera with its output directed on a baffled path to the Yongnuo's IR sensor. The Yongnuo's head was pointed the other way towards the subject.