[BruceBanner]

Staff note: This post may contain affiliate links, which means Pentax Forums may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. If you would like to support the forum directly, you may also make a donation here.

---

...

P.S.: @BruceBanner I'm digging the style of your images. They've got a great look to them. Nice work!

Thank you!

...

Enthusiastically agree! BTW...also enthusiastically appreciate your ongoing contribution to community understanding of available flash options. They are much appreciated.


Steve

Thanks also!

It's perhaps worth also mentioning that (off camera) Manual mode HSS is provided with the XTTL firmware on Cactus, as well as TTL HSS ..... So Bruce could get a feel for the power effects with Manual mode HSS with his own equipment right now .

But so far as on camera Manual HSS goes we seem to have a (very) short list of one flash .... The Godox TT350p. Personally I wouldn't be tempted, it's not powerful enough to be much use in outdoor bright scenarios I worry, plus I always choose P-TTL for all on camera working.

Yeah, I had thought about setting up the v6ii on the camera, the roundbox flash sitting right next to it mounted on a tripod/lightstand with the RF60x, and then see what happens, just to get an idea of power etc.

And yeah I too tend to do all my work in P-TTL on camera for same reasons you do.

-----

Ok... so I had a little time today and the conditions right to try and demonstrate exactly the kinda scenario I was practising with before and the results I stumbled on that prompted this thread in the first place (and my discovery that HSS was not supported in Manual mode on teh AF360FGZII).

The Setup

'Davo' is approximately 3m (a little over) in distance from the camera.

The camera is the K-1 with a FA43, AF360FGZ II and a roundflash attached to it. Matrix metering was used throughout. Shot RAW but converted in camera to Jpg with zero processing added.

Flash Off

In Camera:
Manual Mode
1/500
f2
ISO 100
-2.0 EV

Flash:
Off


P-TTL HSS

In Camera:
Manual
1/500
f2
ISO 100
-2.0 EV
Flash +1.0 EV

Flash:
P-TTL HSS
+2.0 EV
Zoom 85mm

Manual 1/1

In Camera:
Manual
1/200
f3.2
ISO 100
-2.0 EV
Flash +1.0 EV

Flash:
Manual
1/1
Zoom 85mm


NB: I used Av shift (Green Button) to alter the f stop to being the equivalent exposure to the aforementioned shots (ie with the -2.0 EV comp).


So my ignorant mind was quite surprised when I first did this, I was like "woah... at 1/1 there's quite a lot of power there... man that sucks that P-TTL (with or without HSS) seems to somewhat hold back, even when I put everything up to max that I can think of...". I then had the thought "I wonder if there is a flash I can use in Manual mode on the flash (i.e. 1/1 power), be in Av mode in the camera that allows for HSS, choose the aperture and ev comp that I want, shoot, and if it's too weak step forward a bit and try again, and if too powerful step back...".

I suppose what I could do is set up a Tv Mode, where I keep the shutter speed at 1/200, ISO 100, let the aperture fall where it may, Ev comp -2.0 etc and then use the round flash in those situations that I think I'm pushing it with the P-TTL+HSS combo.

I'll repeat, as I said earlier most of the time it's not an issue, especially indoors, no need to use anywhere near +2.0 in the flash! I'm just kinda trying to exploit the round flash to it's maximum and see what kinda shots I can muster for a very portable 'on location/golden hour' kinda shoot (where HSS might not even be an issue) and I don't want to ferry a bunch of light stands and ocf gear to a tricky spot.

Oh... and here's another cool shot from the session

The Scientist

[BruceBanner]

It's perhaps worth also mentioning that (off camera) Manual mode HSS is provided with the XTTL firmware on Cactus, as well as TTL HSS ..... So Bruce could get a feel for the power effects with Manual mode HSS with his own equipment right now .

But so far as on camera Manual HSS goes we seem to have a (very) short list of one flash .... The Godox TT350p. Personally I wouldn't be tempted, it's not powerful enough to be much use in outdoor bright scenarios I worry, plus I always choose P-TTL for all on camera working.

And so I did...

This info here is a little separate from the original intention of this thread but I felt it somewhat related, especially the part/shots about P-TTL +5.0EV vs 1/1. I'll just c/p the info here from another thread;

...

So here are the pictures I took in my garden with my trusty assistance 'Davo' to help me out. My purpose of this outing was to see the difference between the Magbounce vs Roundflash vs No Flash etc. I didn't really do any bare flash shots as I kinda know what to expect from those kinda shots already. Flash provided from v6ii and one single RF60x
It was dusk and I deliberately chose some challenging lighting conditions. If you pay attention to the backdrop you will see there are strong shadows being cast, big contrast between bright and dark spots. Davo was of course in the shade. Shots taken RAW but used in camera Jpg conversion, seen absolutely no adjustments, just Jpg exports.

Shots 5591-5592 and 5593-5594 were tripoded (both cam and flashes), with the flashes about 2.5-3m away from subject, position camera left.

Shots 5596-5597 and 5603-5604 were handheld, camera right hand, Cactus RF60x left hand, Live View Face Detection mode.

The shots;

5591-5592



5593-5994



5596-5597



5603-5604



My take away message was;

1) 200mm zoom or 80mm, it didn't seem to make a difference through the Magbounce or Roundflash, results looked the same.
2) Angling the Magbounce correctly gave more power and light to the subject than the Roundflash at the equivalent distance.
3) There didn't seem to be much of a difference between using 1/1 power with the magbounce vs P-ttl +5.0, which is interesting. It might be that the extra +3.0 EV steps that I get with the Cactus RF60x/V6ii vs/over the hotshoe AF360FGZII/540II (which only gives +2.0 in P-TTL mode) actually matters. It turns the P-TTL from being biased towards being a fill light to actually being a key light?
4) Overall the Magbounce was producing not too bad shadows on the subject. If you inspect the model's face the nose shadows in particular are softer than what bare flash gives (a straight edged shadow). Not bad for something that is uber slick and easy to bring/stow away.

I want to do some further testing, I might even consider buying a second Magbounce (I already have a second maggrip), if I could build some kind of rig that involves a nice handle, something that allows for two RF60x's to be attached to it, then have two Magbounces for more power, the results might be even better!

Here's another SOOC, this time taken later at the end of the session, you can see now on my lawn that the sun is well and truly going down, the lawn no longer showing the strong contrasting light. I could now ease up on the -2ev and I think this was taken Av P-TTL -0.7 ev, Magbounce. The shadow on the nose is still kinda harsh but not too bad, and possibly overdid the power here a little bit which probably contributes to that;

[BrianR]

Interesting thread Bruce, thanks for starting it. Your re-enactment photos look great by the way, and your test model in the last couple posts looks extremely patient.

Godox TT350P does.

Thanks for posting this! I think I missed this flash being announced, it looks like just about everything I've wanted in a flash with fancy features (manual HSS and compact being on the list). It also happens to be on a bit of a sale at bandh at the moment.

[Des]

Thanks for posting this! I think I missed this flash being announced, it looks like just about everything I've wanted in a flash with fancy features (manual HSS and compact being on the list). It also happens to be on a bit of a sale at bandh at the moment.

Slow recycle time is about the only thing to complain about. But that's a by-product of running on 2xAA batteries. Have a look at a bundle with the XProP too Brian - it was effectively about $A54 that way when I got them. Full control over the slave (you can even set manual HSS on the XProP controller) with no line of sight required.

Incidentally the Godox TT350P and XProP are also sold by Adorama as Flashpoint R2 - there's a school of thought that you get better support that way.

[BrianR]

Slow recycle time is about the only thing to complain about. But that's a by-product of running on 2xAA batteries. Have a look at a bundle with the XProP too Brian - it was effectively about $A54 that way when I got them. Full control over the slave (you can even set manual HSS on the XProP controller) with no line of sight required.

Incidentally the Godox TT350P and XProP are also sold by Adorama as Flashpoint R2 - there's a school of thought that you get better support that way.

Thanks Des! My main uses will be macro, so generally up close so lower power settings making recycle time less of an issue, I'm also not a rapid fire kind of guy.

I'm not seeing any bundles with the xprop (godox or flashpoint branded), where did yours come from? I was going to use a short cable, and figured I could get the remote later if I find I'm enjoying the whiz-bang features (though if I can save money now...)

[Des]

Thanks Des! My main uses will be macro, so generally up close so lower power settings making recycle time less of an issue, I'm also not a rapid fire kind of guy.

I'm not seeing any bundles with the xprop (godox or flashpoint branded), where did yours come from? I was going to use a short cable, and figured I could get the remote later if I find I'm enjoying the whiz-bang features (though if I can save money now...)

I got the bundle from an Ebay Australia seller for $A168 (the best price for the TT350P alone was $114 at the time). The gap seems to be a little bigger now: the same seller has the bundle for $180, allowing for a 10% ebay discount ( Godox TT350P + XProP ) compared to $113 (with discount) for the flash alone.

The best price I can see for the XProP alone is $A91 with free postage. The best price I see for the flash alone is about $A110 (incl GST but with discount and free postage) from some other sellers. (I'm tempted to get another one to leave in my grab-and-go bag.) So it seems the bundle is still a better deal, by about $20. Maybe have a look at what's offered on ebay Canada. I think you'd find the XProP useful, even for macro.

BTW both units work fine with Imedion rechargeable batteries, although the battery level display on the XProP never shows full.

[BruceBanner]

Do we know if the Shanny 600FGZ does Manual HSS? Or is it like the 360/540iiFGZ's and only manages HSS under P-TTL protocols?

[BruceBanner]

So why not just use a manual flash and adjust the power to the desired flash contribution? On camera outdoors is going to flat light regardless of modifier. Its straight on, nothing can change that. If you want to use a large aperture, easy to put sunglasses on your lens with an ND filter. Ambient light is mostly constant. Then you can use the full power of the flash and the Inverse Square Law is your friend with flash not reaching the background. By the time you adjust exposure compensation ( which even with P-TTL you likely have to), you could have simply changed the flash power.


These outdoor examples do not use an ND filter, just on camera flash, balancing ambient with a manual flash. The ambient is hard light and I'm not going to change that with an on camera flash not matter how much running and gunning I do.
And I did get paid for all.

Lovely shots as always Brooke but of it's not the look I am seeking to achieve with my own professional photography. All of your shots are stopped down, a curse of the 1/200 limit whereas my objective is to shoot wide open with HSS. We could do the ND filter route but that's a little dated solution for what should be feasible option in 2019...
Using the Cactus RF60x with 1/1 in HSS conditions proved to me that the 360ii in P-TTL HSS mode is night and day difference in terms of flexibility and power output. If I used a bare flash in my above examples I would have plenty of power and recycle times to spare, but again the flat bare flash shots is something I try to avoid where possible.
I know a Xpro-p trigger with a AD200 and some portable softboxes would probably be the best outcome but currently that option will have to wait.

[BruceBanner]

My response was to your question about on camera flash and HSS. My examples were event photographs with on camera flash made in crowds for clients, "running and gunning" as you call it. Nothing to do with my head shot or portrait sessions. Then the light will always be off camera, usually a bare speed light or two. Sometimes a small soft box, have one with a double speed light mount, good in wind. My favorite modifier indoor or out is a Buff Omni with diffuser and / or grid. But that's a very different kettle of fish.

Use of an ND filter in 2019 may be "dated" but it's simple, cheap, it works and I get good recycle power from my flash while I control ambient. I've had a Tiffen 67mm kit for years in my bag, 51 USD. If I did a lot of it, I'd pick up a used leaf shutter camera like a 1" Panasonic FZ1000 or an APS-C Fuji X100 and keep my flash power down and recycle up.

These examples with a 3 stop ND were all bare flash. Last with a 1/2 CTO gel, had overcast instead of golden hour so I made it. All at 2.8, as wide as my 50-135 will go.

Of course all events demand different camera settings. There is for example 'running & gunning' off camera flash (flash one hand, camera the other) in an event (wedding) for candid portrait work where the aim is not 1/200 and ff11 but rather f2 and 1/2000 etc. There is also running & gunning with on camera flash and roof or wall bouncing and aiming for wide open apertures on subjects (no HSS needed here). Or running & gunning with a round flashbox with on camera flash as well.
The purpose of this thread was to discuss HSS in Manual mode options, seeing as the 360 and 540 models seem locked down to HSS only in P-TTL. Luckily we have options, we now know we have a Godox TT350 which can manage it, a Shanny 600 possibly but most definitely a V6ii and RF60x (but that would require some one arm camera firing action). Being stuck at 1/1 power and 1/200 is kinda limiting. I think if you look back over my previous posts you can see how I get better reach with 1/1 than P-TTL, it just kinda sucks it's at the expense of stoppage down and 1/200. We're not really getting into techniques here, just what options are available to us.

. Being stuck at 1/1 power and 1/200 is kinda limiting. I think if you look back over my previous posts you can see how I get better reach with 1/1 than P-TTL, it just kinda sucks it's at the expense of stoppage down and 1/200. We're not really getting into techniques here, just what options are available to us.

I understand being stuck at max shutter sync ( 1/180 in my case) but I don't understand being stuck at 1/1. I vary power and zoom all the time, both have uses and consequences. Haven't had P-TTL capability for years so I should have stayed clear of this thread. Nor did I understand this was about what options are available for purchase, not alternative techniques. Mea culpa.

[BruceBanner]

I understand being stuck at max shutter sync ( 1/180 in my case) but I don't understand being stuck at 1/1. I vary power and zoom all the time, both have uses and consequences. Haven't had P-TTL capability for years so I should have stayed clear of this thread. Nor did I understand this was about what options are available for purchase, not alternative techniques. Mea culpa.

I mean when choosing to use 1/1 (because you may need it, for overcoming bright conditions or passing light through a softbox or other modifier) we're stuck at 1/200 and no HSS (with on camera flashes).

[BruceBanner]

My better half and I had the morning off so we had a little bushwalk. Whilst I did landscape photography (which I take a billion years to complete the shot) she reads a book
As we headed into the gorge I saw an opportunity to further test the MagBounce against the harsh bright sunny Aussie skies. I have to say I was really chuffed with the results and am left wondering if a different portable rig is really going to yield dramatically better results (considering the magbounce is an extremely useful and low footprint gadget).



Settings:
Av mode, ISO 100, f2.5 and ambient light tamed to -1EV. I used the FA43 in Live View Face Detection mode and handheld the Cactus RF60x set at Manual power 1/4 at arms length camera left.

[BruceBanner]

It looks like the Godox V1 is being developed for Pentax as well, hopefully it will follow suit like the little TT350P and support HSS in both Manual and P-TTL modes.

[Kobie]

Do we know if the Shanny 600FGZ does Manual HSS? Or is it like the 360/540iiFGZ's and only manages HSS under P-TTL protocols?

On the hot shoe, it has to be in P-TTL for HSS unfortunately.

[BruceBanner]

On the hot shoe, it has to be in P-TTL for HSS unfortunately.

No it doesn't. We have proof the the Godox TT350P can manage HSS in Manual power (1/1) from the hot shoe of a Pentax camera. Hence why I was intrigued to see if the Shanny could manage it also.