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02-16-2019, 01:59 AM   #1
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3rd Party Flash for Pentax that HSS in Manual Mode (from the hot shoe)?

So I'm a bit slow off the bat, but I just realised that my AF360FGZII can only switch into HSS when in P-TTL Mode. When in Manual Mode (of the Flash) it cannot change sync mode at all.

I'm wondering if there is a 3rd party flash such as Metz or something that can toggle into HSS mode whilst having manual control over the power of the flash and not be forced to use only P-TTL?

Anyone?


Cheers,

Bruce

02-16-2019, 03:06 AM   #2
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With Pentax, HSS is only available with P-TTL.

I have a Nikon version Godox 360AD II that however can be triggered in manual HSS mode by Cactus V6 II triggers on a Pentax.

02-16-2019, 03:29 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
With Pentax, HSS is only available with P-TTL.

I have a Nikon version Godox 360AD II that however can be triggered in manual HSS mode by Cactus V6 II triggers on a Pentax.
Yeah, i figured if the 540II and 360II could not do HSS in Manual but only P-TTL then that meant it would have to be 3rd party. I have the V6ii and RF60x's, I'm pretty sure I can get HSS in Manual Mode with that rig to.
My question is specific to hotshoe on the Pentax camera tho, and whether it is possible?

---------- Post added 02-16-19 at 10:00 PM ----------

So no top tier Metz can manage this feat?
02-16-2019, 05:58 AM   #4
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I would hazard a guess that the limiting is in the Pentax protocol and that the cameras can't ask for hss except in p-TTL. The cactus inserted between the flashes and the camera can, but those made for Pentax wouldn't have the ability to do hss in other modes. The cross platform cactus it appears can however allow a flash for Nikon to be triggered for hss in manual mode.

02-16-2019, 06:38 AM   #5
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Come on all you Sigma, Shanny and Metz owners! Help us out here .... Does anyone's flash allow Manual mode HSS on the hotshoe?

But Bruce, why on earth do you want it? On camera manual flash is difficult enough, surely, without adding the extra complexity (during HSS working) of having to balance every shutter speed adjustment with a compensating flash power change ....P-TTL does this for you.
02-16-2019, 07:02 AM   #6
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I have a Metz 52 AF-1 and it can’t do both at the same time.
02-16-2019, 10:33 AM   #7
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The Godox TT350-P might be able to engage HSS in manual mode.

The Cactus RF60(X) for sure can (even without a V6II trigger).
02-16-2019, 10:55 AM   #8
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Not on camera, Class A .....

---------- Post added 16-02-19 at 18:27 ----------

Are you thinking of the HSS sympathy mode? That would not work in practice, as it needs an optical triggering flash . I understood that Bruce was wanting to use on-camera flash with HSS and manual flash mode. .....(I don't think he should, it's way too much work and not efficient - P-TTL is much better for this).

What do others think? How have you found manual mode HSS, in particular when you have to adjust shutter speed in response to changing ambient light .....?


Last edited by mcgregni; 02-16-2019 at 11:34 AM.
02-16-2019, 11:55 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Come on all you Sigma, Shanny and Metz owners! Help us out here .... Does anyone's flash allow Manual mode HSS on the hotshoe?

But Bruce, why on earth do you want it? On camera manual flash is difficult enough, surely, without adding the extra complexity (during HSS working) of having to balance every shutter speed adjustment with a compensating flash power change ....P-TTL does this for you.
Haha, asking the real question here

I have an event to shoot today, a freebee one, not paid so I am free to experiment a little. It's a cosplay shoot at some interesting locations, an entire camera club are going and we have plenty of models. It's a promo shoot for the upcoming 'Ironfest' held in Lithgow/Blue Mountains every year.
Yesterday I was playing around with my 'Davo' (my mannequin). I was using my 360II and my Vello Roundflash softbox, and I wanted to see what kind of shots I could pull off in various ambient lighting conditions. Seeing as this is a cosplay shoot I wanted to step away from some FA77 shots and use instead the FA43, and gain some context of where the cosplay person might be standing in (environmental portrait if you will).
Now the 360II is not a powerful flash, but I was in P-TTL mode and had the 360II set to +2.0, the Flash compensation in the K-1 to +1.0, had my ambient lighting down around under -1.0-2.0EV, and set my zoom to being max (85mm I think it is), and then stepping back from the subject a good 3-5m or so and test the shots.
Well... they were a little underwhelming, and I couldn't work out if this was a limit of my flash power+softbox or P-TTL...
So then I had the idea, I wanna really shoot Davo in 1/1 power (manual mode), make sure my flash is firing full strength, step back and see what kinda result I was getting. Well! Night and day difference! It's good to know my flash has the power if need be and the shots were looking quite cool and edgy.
It was around this time however that I noticed I was being capped at 1/200, and I had my EV compensation in camera set to -1.7 or something, and I had Av shift for green button (normally in Manual Mode I have this as Tv Shift), so in very bright conditions I would be shooting quite stopped down, not quite the subject isolation shots I was trying to seek.
Power wise I would either back up till the 1/1 was flattering (more environment context is welcome), or just jump down to 1/2 etc. In this particular instance I would let my feet adjust the power more than mess with the power settings itself.

P-TTL would be fine, if I could just gain some more additional power, I'm a little confused that everything on max seems to lack anywhere near what manual power 1/1 can achieve. It goes without saying that when getting close to the subject P-TTL is just fine (and preferred).

I hope this explains the maddening reason.

I was thinking I might have to rebuy a 540II as the 360II was lacking power, and really this is the only reason I have a 360II... for the roundflash softbox (and other indoor running and gunning stuff). All ocf stuff I do is Cactus. But now I think the 540II in P-TTL and HSS might be doing similar 'underpowered' shots, even when setting everything to max. Can the 540II go way higher than +2.0 in HSS?

QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
I have a Metz 52 AF-1 and it can’t do both at the same time.
Thanks, good to know.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The Godox TT350-P might be able to engage HSS in manual mode.

The Cactus RF60(X) for sure can (even without a V6II trigger).
I was going to try that, stick my RF60x on the hotshoe of my camera and see if I can get 1/1 power (or 1/2, 1/4) and use shutter speeds greater than 1/200, I might try this morning quickly before my shoot.

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgregni Quote
Not on camera, Class A .....

---------- Post added 16-02-19 at 18:27 ----------

Are you thinking of the HSS sympathy mode? That would not work in practice, as it needs an optical triggering flash . I understood that Bruce was wanting to use on-camera flash with HSS and manual flash mode. .....(I don't think he should, it's way too much work and not efficient - P-TTL is much better for this).

What do others think? How have you found manual mode HSS, in particular when you have to adjust shutter speed in response to changing ambient light .....?
Yep this is correct.
02-16-2019, 12:24 PM - 1 Like   #10
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. We've had some of these conversations before .....

You can't use the RF60x directly on the camera with HSS, as it is a single pin basic flash type.

Remember that you asked some time ago about the difference between full power manual and P-TTL with maximum compensations? They are not the same output level ....P-TTL uses a metered exposure value, and will always be trying to balance your flash and ambient light when outdoors, and will favor a lower "fill in " level when ambient light is bright. On the LCD the faces will look dark .... Get them on the computer and brighten a bit and it'll probably be fine. But the AF-360 is a bit underpowered for outdoor HSS work possibly ..... You would be better with a more powerful model for sure

As you saw, using the max sync speed and full manual power changes it dramatically, but at the price of small apertures in bright light.

---------- Post added 16-02-19 at 19:45 ----------

I can see why you would want to try full power manual with HSS, to see if it can be stronger than P-TTL mode. But even if you could set a flash to work like that, you won't get anywhere near the strength of effect as you do at max sync speed and full power. Once past the max sync speed then your Guide Numbers drop rapidly away, leaving you with half and even less the amount of power.
02-16-2019, 01:08 PM   #11
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The flash effect is maximal at 1/1 power and sync speed.


Now, P-TTL works fine most of the time but we must always remember that it can be affected by the reflectivity of the subject or the scene. Highly reflective material can really throw it away and make it underexpose no matter how much FEC is applied. So, I don't know how reflective "Davo" is, but it can be something to check. A mirror in the background could also cause trouble with P-TTL. It could be something to look for...
02-17-2019, 12:58 AM - 2 Likes   #12
Des
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I'm wondering if there is a 3rd party flash such as Metz or something that can toggle into HSS mode whilst having manual control over the power of the flash and not be forced to use only P-TTL?
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The Godox TT350-P might be able to engage HSS in manual mode.
Godox TT350P does.


(The lightning symbol with the H on the flash LCD screen means HSS. And as you can see, the shutter speed is above sync speed. I tried it and it works.)
02-17-2019, 02:20 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Godox TT350P does.


(The lightning symbol with the H on the flash LCD screen means HSS. And as you can see, the shutter speed is above sync speed. I tried it and it works.)
Excellent news!

Now... correct me if I'm wrong but the TT350P is a 'small' flash for Pentax, they were apparently working on a proper Pentax flash were they not? Maybe called V860IIP? Is that out yet?
02-17-2019, 02:44 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
correct me if I'm wrong but the TT350P is a 'small' flash for Pentax, they were apparently working on a proper Pentax flash were they not? Maybe called V860IIP? Is that out yet?
Yes the TT350 is a 2xAA powered GN35 flash. Still waiting for a Pentax version of one of their more powerful flashes with on- and off-camera TTL & HSS.

There's the TT600, a single-pin manual flash. It doesn't support on-camera HSS but apparently can do HSS when controlled by another Godox unit: Cactus V5 and XPro-P - PentaxForums.com
02-17-2019, 11:28 AM   #15
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BruceBanner. I think you're making this way, way to complicated with all the exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation aimed at increasing the output of your af360GZ II flash.

I think it would help by taking a look at the owner's manual for the flash, particularly the Guide Number (GN) charts in the back of the manual. Since my manual was published before the Pentax full-frame camera was issued, it may be better to search on line for a PDF copy of the older AF360FGZ's manual which gives GNs for 35mm cameras, which would be applicable to the K-1. The AF360FGZ and the newer model both have the same GNs. The charts should give you a clear idea of how much light the flash is capable of and at what distances, apertures and ISOs.

Using the charts, at a zoom setting of 85mm, the GN at ISO 100 is 36 meters at full power. Dividing 36 by the aperture, gives you the distance, e.g., 36/4 = 9 meters, while 36/8 = 4.5 meters, etc Or, divide 36 by the distance to determine the aperture. At ISO 200, the GN is about 51. At ISO 400, the GN is 72. At ISO 800, the GN is 102, etc.

The GN for the AF540FGZ II is 56 at ISO 100, which is a bit more powerful than the AF360FGZ II at ISO 200, which has a GN of 51. So you gain a bit more than 1 stop of light by moving up to the AF540FGZ II from the AF360FGZ II. You'll have to decide if moving up to the larger flash is worth the money, since doubling the ISO will get you almost the same exposure.

The max GN for High Speed Sync with the AF360FGZ II at ISO 100 and a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec is 9.5 at f/4. As you can see, you lose a lot of light when using HSS. In fact, it's like using your flash at 1/16 power. The faster the shutter speed, the less the effective light output. Add a softbox like the round one you're using and you've reduced the power even more.

In P-TTL mode, the AF360FGZ II gives you a range of .9 to 9 meters at ISO 100, f/4 and zoomed to 85mm. With the flash head zoomed to 35mm, the distance is reduced to .7 to 7.3 meters. Add the diffuser, it's even less.

I guess the bottom line to all of this is that if the flash isn't giving you enough light, raise the ISO until it does, or open the aperture, or both. If that still doesn't get what you want, a larger flash may be in order.
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