Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-10-2019, 12:12 AM   #46
Senior Member
inkista's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 256
QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Thanks inkista, interesting info.
I have my old AD360 and I'm still deciding if keep it or change for another AD200. I'll do depending on how how much I use TTL and remote HSS control, but I've thinking about it some time.
Well, the AD360 can do HSS with an XPro-P. You just need to use an XTR16 receiver, and set HSS on the AD360 itself. But yeah, no TTL over radio; only via the foot and that means only for Canikon.

---------- Post added 04-10-19 at 12:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The only display one really needs to be able to read is that of the trigger, no?
Well, not if you want to check the trigger and the light are communicating settings properly.

QuoteQuote:
For the odd adjustment that is necessary on the AD200 (PRO) unit itself, one can shade the display with one hand, no?
Which hand? The one that's holding the camera or the one adjusting the transmitter? And isn't the point of an off-camera flash that it's not necessarily right next to you? I'm not an AD200 user, though.

QuoteQuote:
Ideally, the display would work under all conditions but if it were a question of adding to the retail price of an AD200 PRO when using a brighter display, I personally would prefer the cheaper version.
To each their own. I've seen the opposite view: happy to pay higher prices if they could actually read the display out in the sunlight. Some folks say it's not a big issue, others that it's virtually unreadable. As a Southern Californian who shoots on sunny beaches a lot, I can see it going either way.

04-10-2019, 12:58 PM   #47
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
SIGNIFICANT NEW FEATURES INCLUDE...
Additionally, recycling time has been reduced from ~2s to 0.9s1.8s (earlier figure was not correct).

Last edited by Class A; 04-12-2019 at 07:29 AM.
04-10-2019, 01:03 PM   #48
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
Well, not if you want to check the trigger and the light are communicating settings properly.
A few testshots will clarify that.

QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
Which hand? The one that's holding the camera or the one adjusting the transmitter?
When making adjustments to the flash unit itself, you'll have both hands free. If you are holding the camera, you'll be dealing with the trigger, no?

It is such a rare occasion when you actually need to use the flash's display. If you got multiple units, you can even leave their group settings untouched and colour-code them so that you know which unit is in group A, etc.

QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
And isn't the point of an off-camera flash that it's not necessarily right next to you?
Of course.

However, when it is not next to you, you won't stand much chance to read the display anyhow (and there is no need to either).
The normal adjustments can be achieved via the trigger and if you really need to deal with the flash unit itself (e.g., to change the radio channel; which would be a rare occurrence) then you'll be next to it and have both hands free.

I don't want to argue against improvements and a brighter display would certainly be welcome, I'm just saying that I don't find it to be an issue in practice.
04-12-2019, 02:03 PM   #49
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 589
Original Poster
Hi again. Robert Hall made another video comparing V1 vs V860II. Here's the link:
Regards.

04-12-2019, 11:19 PM   #50
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Robert Hall made another video comparing V1 vs V860II.
Thanks for sharing.

Rob Hall is always a good source to get some advance info on Godox products as Godox provides him with prototypes (and final production versions) to promote the products on his channel.

I'm writing "promote" because that's what he eventually decided to do. Earlier, you could find videos from Rob Hall in which he made fair comparisons of Godox products, e.g., to Jinbei, pointing out advantages and disadvantages of Godox products. These videos were excellent because he talked from experience and didn't apply bias.

Nowadays, you'll mostly get the positive spin on Godox products with a small niggle thrown in here and there which is always qualified as not being a big issue in the grand scheme of things. There will almost invariably be downsides that he doesn't mention though.

So one shouldn't confuse his product reports as proper reviews. I commend him for his measurements (although his single point light meter tests are flawed) but you just won't give you the full picture from him (or any other channel that has an interest to help sell products for one reason or another).

For instance, when he compared Godox to other brands like Broncolor and Profoto, he mentioned a lot of differences but conveniently had no time in an "already long video" to mention the fact that Godox does not provide any kind of service, in stark contrast to the international professional service one gets from the other brands. I prefer the Godox products myself, but the crucial advice is to buy from a reputable seller like Adorama because that's the only source you'll get any kind of support when your equipment develops a fault.

N.B., Rob Hall did a follow up video and still did not find the time to mention the difference in support. In my book, that's shilling, not reviewing.

In another video about the R2T Mark II he said he "wasn't sure whether the batteries were fully charged" that he put into the R2T Mark II that only showed two bars. So he didn't have time to top off the charge of the batteries but invested the time to put in an "R2D2" animation into the video. He also said that "time will tell" how good the AF-assist light will be as it didn't feature a grid, while in his last video he praises Godox for ditching the useless grid-less AF-assist light to replace it with a proper AF-assisst (this time, for some reason, not mentioning that he personally never uses AF-assist lights and hence personally doesn't care and wouldn't be qualified to test/comment).

In the particular video you shared, I give Rob Hall credit for pointing out that a small round head doesn't give you softer light than a small rectangular head. However, his point about "more pleasant, even light that falls off much nicer (sic)"
  • is irrelevant in most cases because one cannot recognise the "fall off".
  • should really be a point about the pretty horrible pattern of the V860II. Other speedlights with a rectangular heads produce much smoother patterns, so that the difference to the V1 is just the shape.
He didn't mention
  1. that the round pattern of the V1 is wasteful if you are going to use as an on-axis light. The V1 is simply just not "not more powerful than the V860II, sorry", it provides less output for on-axis usage, which explains its comparatively low GN number.
  2. whether the V1 fits into the Godox Bowens mount adapter. Seems to be going to be a bad fit, at least.
  3. that the official recycle time is 1.8 and I measured it to be around 1.6-1.7s (not 1.3s as stated).
  4. that the magnetic modifier system would work best for an off-camera flash but that the V1 is very much geared towards being used on the camera.
  5. that the V1 is lacking a tripod thread to support better mounting options, e.g., on light stands or tripods.
In summary, he could have pointed out the tension the V1 is exposed to by combining features of on-camera flashes and off-camera flashes that in combination aren't entirely convincing. Such an analysis would not have the purpose of trashing a design/product but would help to assist manufacturers in designing more coherent products in the future and help users make more informed decisions.

To be clear: I think the V1 is a very useful product. I think Godox make incredibly useful gear in general (sometimes flawed in unnecessary ways, in particular regarding usability, but overall fantastic value). I think that Rob Hall provides useful information. I think that Rob Hall makes many good points and I value the information he provides. All I'm saying is that one unfortunately does not get the full picture from Rob Hall.

Last edited by Class A; 04-12-2019 at 11:24 PM.
04-13-2019, 12:21 AM   #51
Senior Member
inkista's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 256
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...All I'm saying is that one unfortunately does not get the full picture from Rob Hall.
I think Hall makes all that pretty darn clear when he mentions he's being sponsored by Adorama in his videos. I agree, his reviews were probably fairer and wider ranging when he wasn't, but also, considering the amount of time and testing he puts into his videos, getting paid for that time somehow (aside from YT views) was inevitably going to happen.
04-19-2019, 05:36 PM   #52
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
I think Hall makes all that pretty darn clear when he mentions he's being sponsored by Adorama in his videos.
He was doing the Godox promotion before becoming Adorama-sponsored, though.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if he started to sing the praise of Profoto more, given the Adorama connection. As soon as Profoto gets their act together and releases a proper trigger which supports a display showing all power levels, I predict that he'll start telling the world how great Profoto is.

04-24-2019, 05:24 AM   #53
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 589
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
Well, the AD360 can do HSS with an XPro-P. You just need to use an XTR16 receiver, and set HSS on the AD360 itself. But yeah, no TTL over radio; only via the foot and that means only for Canikon.
Thanks for the appointment. Yes I do HSS this way with the XPro-P . I used the 'stacking way' before having the XPro-P. But the AD360 have no TTL capabilities, regardless if you use the foor or not. Maybe you are referring to the mk2 version? Anyway, the point for me is to balance power vs ease of handling. With my AD200 I can get a decent pic really quick by using TTL, If I'm in a hurry; and TTL works reasonably well, so useful for quick pics on the outside.

The problem with the AD360 if that, yes, you have to manually enable/disable HSS, it's limited to 1/8 and, I always thought, that you need to change power also manually in HSS mode. But after reading your comment I checked again and, to my surprise, I could change power without issue by using the trigger. I'm sure I did the same test time ago and I couldn't change it remotely.

Do I usually need the extra power of the AD360? That's the question . The AD200 is so portable and full of features. Most of the time I'm using the AD200 only.

Regards.
04-24-2019, 10:25 AM   #54
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 589
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
In summary, he could have pointed out the tension the V1 is exposed to by combining features of on-camera flashes and off-camera flashes that in combination aren't entirely convincing. Such an analysis would not have the purpose of trashing a design/product but would help to assist manufacturers in designing more coherent products in the future and help users make more informed decisions.To be clear: I think the V1 is a very useful product. I think Godox make incredibly useful gear in general (sometimes flawed in unnecessary ways, in particular regarding usability, but overall fantastic value). I think that Rob Hall provides useful information. I think that Rob Hall makes many good points and I value the information he provides. All I'm saying is that one unfortunately does not get the full picture from Rob Hall.

Thanks for your detailed comment, I appreciate it.
I agree about the Godox lack of service (that RH didn't mention). As you tell, one way to fight agains this situation is to buy via Adorama, Amazon or other sellers that can offer warranties. Here in Spain I'm lucky as I have at least two sellers that offer some kind of support for Godox products (replacement and so), and of course you have always a two years warranty if you bought locally. Of course I understand that some people could need a more pro service, for example 24h replacement warranty or so, that Godox doesn't offer. But... for the price... I can live without it .

BTW, Robert made ANOTHER video , this time comparing the V1 vs Profoto A1. Suprisingly it seems that the V1 has the same power than the A1, although the a1 is announced with GN40 vs GN28 for the V1. But it's logical if you look at the real power: 76Ws for A1, 75Ws for V1.

Regards.
05-29-2019, 04:09 PM   #55
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
mattb123's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Colorado High Country
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,869
QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Thanks for your detailed comment, I appreciate it.
I agree about the Godox lack of service (that RH didn't mention). As you tell, one way to fight agains this situation is to buy via Adorama, Amazon or other sellers that can offer warranties. Here in Spain I'm lucky as I have at least two sellers that offer some kind of support for Godox products (replacement and so), and of course you have always a two years warranty if you bought locally. Of course I understand that some people could need a more pro service, for example 24h replacement warranty or so, that Godox doesn't offer. But... for the price... I can live without it .

BTW, Robert made ANOTHER video , this time comparing the V1 vs Profoto A1. Suprisingly it seems that the V1 has the same power than the A1, although the a1 is announced with GN40 vs GN28 for the V1. But it's logical if you look at the real power: 76Ws for A1, 75Ws for V1.

Regards.
Are any of these available yet? I'm considering replacing my Metz 58 AF-2 and this seems like it might be a good option. I use Cactus triggers with the Metz and would switch to a Godox trigger like the XPro-P if it all works together. Then I could add a AD200 Pro or two as I need them for projects and get rid of my mix of old random speedlights and triggers.

One thing that is confusing to me the trying to compare the guide number of the Metz and Godox.
Metz 58 AF-2 says: "Guide Number: 190' at ISO 100 and 105mm"
Godox A1 says: "92 feet (28m) at ISO 100 and 50mm"

How should those values be compared to get an apples to apples comparison? Am I correct to think the Metz has considerably more power based on this?
05-29-2019, 04:39 PM   #56
Senior Member
inkista's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 256
QuoteOriginally posted by mattb123 Quote
Are any of these available yet?
So far, I think only the Canon, Nikon, and Sony versions are released. Fuji, MFT, and Pentax are still pre-order at Adorama. This is very typical of how Godox stages device releases.

QuoteQuote:
One thing that is confusing to me the trying to compare the guide number of the Metz and Godox.
Metz 58 AF-2 says: "Guide Number: 190' at ISO 100 and 105mm"
Godox A1 says: "92 feet (28m) at ISO 100 and 50mm"

How should those values be compared to get an apples to apples comparison?
You kind of can't until someone gets their hands on one, particularly since the V1 doesn't have a traditional rectangular fresnel head, and the spread pattern is going to be different. But essentially, based on Robert Hall's power testing, the V1's output is equivalent to the V860II/TT685's (V1 is 0.1 stop higher than the V860II/TT685).

QuoteQuote:
Am I correct to think the Metz has considerably more power based on this?
No. The zoom figure is the key issue. Zooming moves the bulb back and forth inside a fresnel head to give a narrower or wider spread pattern. The wider the spread, the less light hits any given point, and the lower the measurement gets. Most manufacturers measure at the tightest zoom possible to make their flashes look more powerful. Canon's 580EXII had a similar guide number of 58m (hence the 580 in the name) when zoomed to 105mm; pretty much the same as your Metz. The 600EX-RT, when it came out had a guide number of 60m when zoomed to 200mm, but was essentially the exact same power output.

The Godox V860II specs at 60m @200mm, 100 iso, as well. But, Adorama's testing methodology had the number coming in far lower. Probably because they were testing around 35mm or 50mm zoom instead.

Just me, but I think the Godox V1 is probably equivalent to your Metz on power output.
05-29-2019, 04:55 PM   #57
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by mattb123 Quote
One thing that is confusing to me the trying to compare the guide number of the Metz and Godox.
Metz 58 AF-2 says: "Guide Number: 190' at ISO 100 and 105mm"
Godox A1 says: "92 feet (28m) at ISO 100 and 50mm"
The Metz 58 AF-2 manual states that the GN at 50mm is 137ft (42m).

The V1's GN figure seems too low in comparison. Not sure what is going on.

Note that quite a bit of light of the V1 is lost when it is used as an on-camera trigger. The round light pattern is wasteful with respect to the 3:2 rectangle required by the camera.

Personally, I think an AD200 with a round head accessory makes more sense.
05-29-2019, 09:17 PM   #58
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
mattb123's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Colorado High Country
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,869
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
So far, I think only the Canon, Nikon, and Sony versions are released. Fuji, MFT, and Pentax are still pre-order at Adorama. This is very typical of how Godox stages device releases.



You kind of can't until someone gets their hands on one, particularly since the V1 doesn't have a traditional rectangular fresnel head, and the spread pattern is going to be different. But essentially, based on Robert Hall's power testing, the V1's output is equivalent to the V860II/TT685's (V1 is 0.1 stop higher than the V860II/TT685).



No. The zoom figure is the key issue. Zooming moves the bulb back and forth inside a fresnel head to give a narrower or wider spread pattern. The wider the spread, the less light hits any given point, and the lower the measurement gets. Most manufacturers measure at the tightest zoom possible to make their flashes look more powerful. Canon's 580EXII had a similar guide number of 58m (hence the 580 in the name) when zoomed to 105mm; pretty much the same as your Metz. The 600EX-RT, when it came out had a guide number of 60m when zoomed to 200mm, but was essentially the exact same power output.

The Godox V860II specs at 60m @200mm, 100 iso, as well. But, Adorama's testing methodology had the number coming in far lower. Probably because they were testing around 35mm or 50mm zoom instead.

Just me, but I think the Godox V1 is probably equivalent to your Metz on power output.


Thanks. I'll keep limping along with the Metz and external battery for now (a Godox too). I keep having problems with the cables and want to just not deal with an external battery pack which it looks like the A1 could give me for a very reasonable price.

I wish there was a GN standard to make power comparisons easier. Or at least something harder for marketing departments to manipulate.
I would be ok with the same amount as my existing flash but would be happier with more. I definitely wouldn't want less.

---------- Post added 05-29-19 at 10:20 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The Metz 58 AF-2 manual states that the GN at 50mm is 137ft (42m).

The V1's GN figure seems too low in comparison. Not sure what is going on.

Note that quite a bit of light of the V1 is lost when it is used as an on-camera trigger. The round light pattern is wasteful with respect to the 3:2 rectangle required by the camera.

Personally, I think an AD200 with a round head accessory makes more sense.
I can see the logic in that. I was thinking I would use this both on and off the camera quite a bit. I may just got for the AD200 anyway but having the option to use it either way with only one addition thing (transmitter) is handy.
05-30-2019, 11:41 AM - 2 Likes   #59
Senior Member
inkista's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 256
QuoteOriginally posted by mattb123 Quote
I wish there was a GN standard to make power comparisons easier. Or at least something harder for marketing departments to manipulate.
I keep wishing that someday dpreview would add a section for strobes/speedlights, and test them for power the way Hall does, with a standardized setup, modifier, and a calibrated light meter. We'd have apples to apples for both the small and big lights, then. As it is, it's even worse with the guide number for speedlights and Ws ratings for the strobes and the huge variance with bare bulb lights based on reflectors, etc.

QuoteQuote:
I would be ok with the same amount as my existing flash but would be happier with more. I definitely wouldn't want less.
Have you considered the extension head, round head, and carry pouch for an AD200? Basic problem: tilt only, no swivel. But there are some madmen out there, using the extension head and round head on top of an X1T with the battery/body in a hip pouch, to use an AD200 on-camera.

I really wish, though, that Godox would pull their thumb out and release a V860II-P and TT685-P, so Pentax shooters weren't forced to only look at the most-expensive option (V1) or the lowest-powered one (TT350-P). It sounds like a V860II-P would also work for what you want (internal li-on pack).

Last edited by inkista; 05-30-2019 at 11:48 AM.
05-31-2019, 05:12 AM   #60
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 11,250
QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
I keep wishing that someday dpreview would add a section for strobes/speedlights, and test them for power the way Hall does, with a standardized setup...
DPReview are typically not capable of doing standardised testing.
They'd do some random scenarios and argue it is more "realistic" that way.
Sounds like a joke, but isn't. Their "science editor" believes that the randomness of their bicycle AF test adds to the test being "realistic" rather than making it non-repeatable.

Robert Hall is still learning how to meter correctly. While he understands that measuring a hot spot of a light isn't representative of the total light output, he recently tried to compare a Profoto B10 to an AD400 PRO using an undiffused softbox. Of course, even after one reflection, the hot-spotting B10 was still advantaged. Only after a viewer suggested to add diffusion, he got more realistic results, confirming that the AD400 indeed has higher output than the B10. If he hadn't been corrected by his audience, he would have defended the silly F-Stoppers result claiming that the B10 basically provides the same output power as the AD400.

In my view, single lightmeter readings are very problematic. I'd rather do a standard setup with a softbox against a surface and then measure the whole output on the wall. This can be done by using a camera that shoots the surface and then analysing the contents of a RAW file (using the linear data, before it gets bend by a RAW developer). I did this once with my K100D as I didn't have a light meter but still wanted to measure the output consistency of a flash over several power levels. My measurements were highly consistent with expected values, including changing shutter speeds, etc.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
ad200, display, flash, gn, godox, godox v1 round, hand, head, hss, light, lighting, metz, output, pattern, pentax news, pentax rumors, photo studio, round, speedlight, spread, strobist, trigger, ttl, v1, v1 round head, version
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Godox XProC on Pentax: tests with my K3II, V6 II and other Godox equipment morenjavi Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 25 07-04-2019 05:59 AM
K-3 BULB MODE issues on Firmware V1.11 V1.20 V1.40 gedasst Pentax K-3 & K-3 II 8 01-16-2019 02:04 AM
Pentax K1, Godox AD200, Godox XPRO and Cactus V6 II: HSS Setting Instructions howieb101 Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 28 10-24-2018 02:23 PM
HSS: Godox XT32N, Godox Ving 850 Mk I Flash and Cactus V6ii - Setup instructions howieb101 Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 10 03-03-2018 03:15 AM
Round and round and round brkl Post Your Photos! 6 04-20-2009 11:19 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:23 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top