[morenjavi]

Thanks a lot for your detailed experiece. It's clear that you are enjoying your new toys

It should be noted that the rig I use is very inefficient, it does an ok job for quick set up time and low storage issues (easy to carry on person), it's definitely better than bare flash, but I found I need both parts to make it work this well, a magbounce without the umbrella looks the same as a umbrella without the magbounce. So although I am close up in these shots with perhaps using a lot of power I am also not using an efficient modifier. I have plans to try stuff like lining the inside of the magbounce with tinfoil or white paper, something that might perhaps increase efficiency, it might however increase contrast and we lose that soft shadow line...

In my experience, the fresnel head is a so-so device. It has 35mm and a really ugly light pattern. When I use it, for fill an umbrella or so, I put a kind of diffuser cap on he head, that's all.
The most used head is the bulb, and I think you'll find a big difference compared to the fresnel heads you are used to.

The bulb 'wants' a round diffuser. After testing several setups to fill an umbrella the most efficient way, my preferred accesory is the standard (28mm) bowl AD-S2.It's the device that squeezes the most power form the bulb, around a 1/3EV more that the fresnel head, and it's a round pattern. If you add the standard diffuser you'll get also a really uniform round light pattern with minimum spill. IMHO it's the best way to fully fill an umbrella, even better than using the ad-28, which is the standard accesory to use with umbrellas.

As a reference, this is my standandar rig when I get the AD200 outside: light stand + phottix varos II + AD200 + bulb + AD-S2 with diffuser + umbrella. Notice that the Varos II adds a 8º tilt to the umbrella shaft, what helps to put the light just in the center of the umbrella.





This is the pattern you can get with the AD200 + AD-S6, compared with the AD-S2 + diffuser.

Here's one shot that turned out quite well however;

Really beautiful picture.

[gatorguy]

Bruce, I do believe you have moved past a "fully wired studio setup". For excellent reason IMHO.

---------- Post added 10-20-19 at 03:59 PM ----------

In my experience, the fresnel head is a so-so device. It has 35mm and a really ugly light pattern. When I use it, for fill an umbrella or so, I put a kind of diffuser cap on he head, that's all.
The most used head is the bulb, and I think you'll find a big difference compared to the fresnel heads you are used to.

The bulb 'wants' a round diffuser. After testing several setups to fill an umbrella the most efficient way, my preferred accesory is the standard (28mm) bowl AD-S2.It's the device that squeezes the most power form the bulb, around a 1/3EV more that the fresnel head, and it's a round pattern. If you add the standard diffuser you'll get also a really uniform round light pattern with minimum spill. IMHO it's the best way to fully fill an umbrella, even better than using the ad-28, which is the standard accesory to use with umbrellas.

Great advice on the modifiers and in general I 100% agree.

[BruceBanner]

Thanks a lot for your detailed experiece. It's clear that you are enjoying your new toys



In my experience, the fresnel head is a so-so device. It has 35mm and a really ugly light pattern. When I use it, for fill an umbrella or so, I put a kind of diffuser cap on he head, that's all.
The most used head is the bulb, and I think you'll find a big difference compared to the fresnel heads you are used to.

The bulb 'wants' a round diffuser. After testing several setups to fill an umbrella the most efficient way, my preferred accesory is the standard (28mm) bowl AD-S2.It's the device that squeezes the most power form the bulb, around a 1/3EV more that the fresnel head, and it's a round pattern. If you add the standard diffuser you'll get also a really uniform round light pattern with minimum spill. IMHO it's the best way to fully fill an umbrella, even better than using the ad-28, which is the standard accesory to use with umbrellas.

As a reference, this is my standandar rig when I get the AD200 outside: light stand + phottix varos II + AD200 + bulb + AD-S2 with diffuser + umbrella. Notice that the Varos II adds a 8º tilt to the umbrella shaft, what helps to put the light just in the center of the umbrella.





This is the pattern you can get with the AD200 + AD-S6, compared with the AD-S2 + diffuser.

Thanks for that.

Have i understood you correctly that the fresnel standard head on the AD200 is fixed at 35mm? Was my zoom adjustments on the AD200 from 28mm to 200mm not actually doing anything (it was so windy that I couldn't hear a mechanical zoom noise, perhaps it does nothing on the AD200's)?

I have a wedding this Friday, but I (we, family and I) are just going as guests. The bride and groom are close friends to us and of course they are aware of my photography passion and are hoping/wanting me to snap some shots, but they have a proper paid shooter. I don't think I can recall attending a wedding and doing 'casual shooting' before (at my current skill level), so this has started to make me think about my lens selection and what I will bring to the day/nights events. It also means whatever I bring needs to be minimal rig, stuff that can stay on my person at all time (no running backwards and forwards to my bags etc), so stuff that can clip onto my holster etc.

And so this made me think about the AD200, and whether I should go fresnel vs bulb, and I quickly realised that I would need something like that reflector head to control the light spill of the bulb, but then the reflector head was likely to be too bulky for this purpose (I am yet to decide if I am even going to take an umbrella at all...), so stowing away the AD200 in a little pouch for the day is also kinda important, it feels to me that the bulb would be better but it needs 'more' to get it working the way we want. Correct me if I am wrong but the only time you'd want a bare bulb on the AD200 and no modifier on the end of it like the reflector is if you are having it poke into the rear of a softbox (as opposed to shooting back into an umbrella etc)?

I have the magbounce and magsphere, for indoor use I always find just bare flash roof bouncing is the nicest softest light, but I think I am missing out on some catchlight. I might play with the sphere and bounce, get some black foamy thing mods or foil inside, see if I can somehow get the best of both worlds for indoor shots, some soft light as well as catchlight.

I have barely scratched the surface, so much more testing to be done.

I am curious to know the rig you have with the barebulb, reflector and reflective umbrella, what is the quality of light fall off for that? It could be I need to start looking for a small 12-14 inch reflective umbrella (even possibly with a diffuser sock like how my large 7ft westcott ones have) and then shoot back into an umbrella at these running and gunning events.

Really beautiful picture.

Thanks

[morenjavi]

Have i understood you correctly that the fresnel standard head on the AD200 is fixed at 35mm? Was my zoom adjustments on the AD200 from 28mm to 200mm not actually doing anything (it was so windy that I couldn't hear a mechanical zoom noise, perhaps it does nothing on the AD200's)?

I'm afraid it's fixed .

but then the reflector head was likely to be too bulky for this purpose

There is a new accesory for the AD200, the AD-M, very similar to the AD-S2, but it's smaller, you can take a look.

Correct me if I am wrong but the only time you'd want a bare bulb on the AD200 and no modifier on the end of it like the reflector is if you are having it poke into the rear of a softbox (as opposed to shooting back into an umbrella etc)?

Exactly! It's perfect for my round-like sofboxes.I recently use the AD-B2 for that.

I am curious to know the rig you have with the barebulb, reflector and reflective umbrella, what is the quality of light fall off for that

My umbrella has 1m diameter. I can search for a sample pic with real things, but I can comment that is similar to other basic light shappers of the same size.
This is a sample of the pattern light with the AD-S2 + diffusser + 1m silver umbrella.



Here we have f/3.2, compare it with f9 with just the AD-S2 lighting directly.

It could be I need to start looking for a small 12-14 inch reflective umbrella

There is a Godox accesory that can be a good option, the AD-S7. It's small, foldable, not bad quality, and fits perfectly with the bulb (no spill). It's better than I thought at the beginning.

Here you have a comparison, AD-S7 without the central plate and with the diffuser.



I got f/4.5. Not bad.

[repaap]

It looks quite good!

I received my Elinchrome PRO and did give it a little try. Seems like I can sync (HS) my AF360FGX up till 1/8000 it has to be M mode thou. I can leave it to 1/1 and use delay from trigger to match it. Have to dial in delay manually thou. Depending on what do I need. Same with Quadra flash. I can see what is going on and work my way from there. Seems quite nice. And this is day 1.


All in all looking forward to try things out what you have done at here and get my idea of how could I do it with my own style. But it seems that I'm in with HS and all that. which is nice.

[morenjavi]

I received my Elinchrome PRO and did give it a little try. Seems like I can sync (HS) my AF360FGX up till 1/8000 it has to be M mode thou. I can leave it to 1/1 and use delay from trigger to match it. Have to dial in delay manually thou. Depending on what do I need. Same with Quadra flash. I can see what is going on and work my way from there. Seems quite nice. And this is day 1.

I've taken a look at the Elinchrome trigger. Out of curiosity, how do you get HS with your Pentax flash? Do you put the AF360 on top of an Elinchrome receiver, in manual mode, fulll power and adjust some timming ?
I think there are many possibilities to mix Godox and Elinchrome lights stacking your trigger on top of a X2TP Godox trigger, but of course without TTL or HSS... maybe HyperSync, who knows.
Anyway enjoy your Elinchrome!

[repaap]

I've taken a look at the Elinchrome trigger. Out of curiosity, how do you get HS with your Pentax flash? Do you put the AF360 on top of an Elinchrome receiver, in manual mode, fulll power and adjust some timming ?
I think there are many possibilities to mix Godox and Elinchrome lights stacking your trigger on top of a X2TP Godox trigger, but of course without TTL or HSS... maybe HyperSync, who knows.
Anyway enjoy your Elinchrome!

Yes, that is basically it. There is not any automation. But it does work. Ofcourse you’ll need the PRO to adjust delay. And PRO is better on elinchrome. And just for it. And you can adjust it better.

As I said before. What you have is more handy. But this works too. HS is quite powerful still.

Edit:actually it works best now with p-ttl. Don’t know why. Especially if I trigger AF360 alone.

---

Last edited by repaap; 10-22-2019 at 12:49 AM.

[Class A]

The most used head is the bulb, and I think you'll find a big difference compared to the fresnel heads you are used to.

I fully agree and thanks heaps for sharing your results using the reflector!

[Class A]

I would need something like that reflector head to control the light spill of the bulb

There is a nice kit for the AD200 that comes with a barn door attachment.

It attaches to the Fresnel head so you'd be stuck with that 35mm spread and an ugly light pattern, but often the light pattern cannot be easily identified and you get to easily use gels and a grid as well.

...the only time you'd want a bare bulb on the AD200 and no modifier on the end of it like the reflector is if you are having it poke into the rear of a softbox (as opposed to shooting back into an umbrella etc)

As @morenjavi showed, another great use of the bare bulb is in combination with a reflector to shoot into an umbrella. You can also create round lighting patterns on a backdrop using such reflectors, without getting the round-head extension for the AD200.

[BruceBanner]

I'm afraid it's fixed .


There is a new accesory for the AD200, the AD-M, very similar to the AD-S2, but it's smaller, you can take a look.


Exactly! It's perfect for my round-like sofboxes.I recently use the AD-B2 for that.


My umbrella has 1m diameter. I can search for a sample pic with real things, but I can comment that is similar to other basic light shappers of the same size.
This is a sample of the pattern light with the AD-S2 + diffusser + 1m silver umbrella.



Here we have f/3.2, compare it with f9 with just the AD-S2 lighting directly.



There is a Godox accesory that can be a good option, the AD-S7. It's small, foldable, not bad quality, and fits perfectly with the bulb (no spill). It's better than I thought at the beginning.

Here you have a comparison, AD-S7 without the central plate and with the diffuser.



I got f/4.5. Not bad.

Thanks for that.

It's good to see a few attachments that I didn't know about for the AD200, will have to check some of them out (I already had a peep at them but hopefully Robert Hall or someone has tested them.

The wind was a little calmer today so I tested my 7ft westcott with sock with both AD200s inside on full power. I don't have a AB-D2 but I managed to squeeze them inside, still using the boring head, not the bulb;

BTS


Quick Edit;


This was taken with the FA43, f1.9, ISO 100, 1/2500, 4pmish, low sun directly behind davo's head, -1EV. Not bad, I mean I am completely fighting the sun here, it's directly in front of me. I did take some other shots like this but without the sun behind the head of the doll, but in view, similar result tbh. I can see however why people might want a AD600, for additional power for moments like this. I could have the umbrella closer however, and I think efficiency would be even higher with the bulb heads, AND my umbrella was white lining not silver, and if I used a ABD2 even more efficiency...

For me, firing a flash against a wall (with or without modifiers) doesn't really help me understand much in terms of how the intense the shadows would be in the subject, harsh or gradual etc. I just get an idea of spill really, which can be handy for say an environmental portrait or something.

There is a nice kit for the AD200 that comes with a barn door attachment.

It attaches to the Fresnel head so you'd be stuck with that 35mm spread and an ugly light pattern, but often the light pattern cannot be easily identified and you get to easily use gels and a grid as well.


As @morenjavi showed, another great use of the bare bulb is in combination with a reflector to shoot into an umbrella. You can also create round lighting patterns on a backdrop using such reflectors, without getting the round-head extension for the AD200.

As I have a wedding on Friday and am only going as a guest I have decided to concentrate all my efforts around how I will work that event as a casual shooter. I have no idea how long the tog is hired for, they may not be around for the reception so I want the option to flex some flash shots into the evening if the opportunity arises and I am not stepping on any professionals toes.

I have not found any general indoor flash shot that is better for 'running & gunning' than simply roof bouncing bare flash. A bare bulb would be worse, and I don't currently have a reflector, and the reflector head adds on significant bulk and awkardness to carry on person. If this was my wedding event I'd have a room to store my gear and could go back and forwards to getting and changing stuff over. So I decided to make do with the freshnel boring head for now, and leave the bulb till after the event. I could perhaps use the bulb and a 'black foamy thing'.. maybe... I'll post my running and gunning rig and what I have decided to take sometime before Friday

Before the above shot with the 7ft westcott I also tried shooting a AD200 into a 80cm parabolic umbrella, and was analysing the shadow fall off on Davo. Even with the diffuser, in my mind my weird thingy combo (Magbounce and shoot through umbrella) was providing nicer softer lighting (and in arguably a smaller and quicker assembly package. Still to play with this setup and see if I can increase efficiency.

So in my mind I am feeling currently that freshnel is more suited to event, and bulb for studio, just a hunch, maybe with certain modifiers I can make the bulb work better for running and gunning too, but I'm kinda running out of time right now to test that out.

I've bought into the magmod system, it's not cheap, I have all teh snoots, grids, gels, spheres and bounces that I need, so it's another reason I will scrutinise any AD200 addons before deciding if they are worth it or not. Right now the reflector seems like perhaps the only must for me (for someone who uses umbrellas etc).

[repaap]

Thanks for that.

It's good to see a few attachments that I didn't know about for the AD200, will have to check some of them out (I already had a peep at them but hopefully Robert Hall or someone has tested them.

The wind was a little calmer today so I tested my 7ft westcott with sock with both AD200s inside on full power. I don't have a AB-D2 but I managed to squeeze them inside, still using the boring head, not the bulb;

BTS


Quick Edit;


This was taken with the FA43, f1.9, ISO 100, 1/2500, 4pmish, low sun directly behind davo's head, -1EV. Not bad, I mean I am completely fighting the sun here, it's directly in front of me. I did take some other shots like this but without the sun behind the head of the doll, but in view, similar result tbh. I can see however why people might want a AD600, for additional power for moments like this. I could have the umbrella closer however, and I think efficiency would be even higher with the bulb heads, AND my umbrella was white lining not silver, and if I used a ABD2 even more efficiency...

For me, firing a flash against a wall (with or without modifiers) doesn't really help me understand much in terms of how the intense the shadows would be in the subject, harsh or gradual etc. I just get an idea of spill really, which can be handy for say an environmental portrait or something.



As I have a wedding on Friday and am only going as a guest I have decided to concentrate all my efforts around how I will work that event as a casual shooter. I have no idea how long the tog is hired for, they may not be around for the reception so I want the option to flex some flash shots into the evening if the opportunity arises and I am not stepping on any professionals toes.

I have not found any general indoor flash shot that is better for 'running & gunning' than simply roof bouncing bare flash. A bare bulb would be worse, and I don't currently have a reflector, and the reflector head adds on significant bulk and awkardness to carry on person. If this was my wedding event I'd have a room to store my gear and could go back and forwards to getting and changing stuff over. So I decided to make do with the freshnel boring head for now, and leave the bulb till after the event. I could perhaps use the bulb and a 'black foamy thing'.. maybe... I'll post my running and gunning rig and what I have decided to take sometime before Friday

Before the above shot with the 7ft westcott I also tried shooting a AD200 into a 80cm parabolic umbrella, and was analysing the shadow fall off on Davo. Even with the diffuser, in my mind my weird thingy combo (Magbounce and shoot through umbrella) was providing nicer softer lighting (and in arguably a smaller and quicker assembly package. Still to play with this setup and see if I can increase efficiency.

So in my mind I am feeling currently that freshnel is more suited to event, and bulb for studio, just a hunch, maybe with certain modifiers I can make the bulb work better for running and gunning too, but I'm kinda running out of time right now to test that out.

I've bought into the magmod system, it's not cheap, I have all teh snoots, grids, gels, spheres and bounces that I need, so it's another reason I will scrutinise any AD200 addons before deciding if they are worth it or not. Right now the reflector seems like perhaps the only must for me (for someone who uses umbrellas etc).

I can see what you are doing at there. How ever I suppose that torquing lens also in flare like that is one other thing especially when you are shooting wide open. Even shooting lower for having sun behind more could help you and give that lining to that model, if that was what you were after.

I have to try my flashes outside when there is some more decent days. Don't want to fight storm... It is interesting look however. I know what you mean about need for more power. Not just for that power, but also recycling times, when you are at lower power.


Thinking of that shallow Dof you mentioned of earlier in this thread. I did try some shots of my coffee(it did get cold).

Stipbox above and grid from left.





even if that is not recommended my Elinchrome to use 2 flash heads for HS. My flasheads are good untill 1/2000 and then it does get messy. I suppose that outside it could be less important. I hav this wave of light and it is not uniform enought to fill the frame after 1/3000 and up. I can PP around it.

This post was just to respond of something you said earlier. And my lights propably work way different that proper HSS.

[BruceBanner]

I can see what you are doing at there. How ever I suppose that torquing lens also in flare like that is one other thing especially when you are shooting wide open. Even shooting lower for having sun behind more could help you and give that lining to that model, if that was what you were after.

I have to try my flashes outside when there is some more decent days. Don't want to fight storm... It is interesting look however. I know what you mean about need for more power. Not just for that power, but also recycling times, when you are at lower power.


Thinking of that shallow Dof you mentioned of earlier in this thread. I did try some shots of my coffee(it did get cold).

Stipbox above and grid from left.





even if that is not recommended my Elinchrome to use 2 flash heads for HS. My flasheads are good untill 1/2000 and then it does get messy. I suppose that outside it could be less important. I hav this wave of light and it is not uniform enought to fill the frame after 1/3000 and up. I can PP around it.

This post was just to respond of something you said earlier. And my lights propably work way different that proper HSS.

What I'm doing is messing about lol. I wouldn't normally place a live subject with the sun right at the back of the head for a halo effect lol, but you know... thought it might illustrate the kinda power I was getting from two AD200's set x distance away (as illustrated in the BTS shot), and thus at -1ev I can recover some details in the trees and house, so overall the image is semi balanced.

Normally I would use the sunlight behind the subject as rim/hair light, but not necessarily in the shot itself. Something like this;



or this;



I try and embrace the flare the FA Ltds have, sometimes it can be quite an attractive welcome, such as;



and



I guess it depends on the kinda flare. I noticed for example that the F28 I have flares badly in a kinda 'digital' way, it's just a very localised intense flare that impacts a very small portion of the frame vs actually being a mild rainbow ring or something.

During that same session in the garden with my mannequin 'Davo' I did test with the F28, and horrified with the flare I switched and put the HD DA 20-40 on and set wide on the K-1 (FF mode). I was amazed at the flare control, it was actually superb, and wide open it's actually really nice 3d feel. I think the 20-40 will be coming with me to the wedding on Friday, just so I have a non flare 'group' portrait lens should the situation arise.

Nice coffee shots

[repaap]

What I'm doing is messing about lol. I wouldn't normally place a live subject with the sun right at the back of the head for a halo effect lol, but you know... thought it might illustrate the kinda power I was getting from two AD200's set x distance away (as illustrated in the BTS shot), and thus at -1ev I can recover some details in the trees and house, so overall the image is semi balanced.

Normally I would use the sunlight behind the subject as rim/hair light, but not necessarily in the shot itself. Something like this;



or this;



I try and embrace the flare the FA Ltds have, sometimes it can be quite an attractive welcome, such as;



and



I guess it depends on the kinda flare. I noticed for example that the F28 I have flares badly in a kinda 'digital' way, it's just a very localised intense flare that impacts a very small portion of the frame vs actually being a mild rainbow ring or something.

During that same session in the garden with my mannequin 'Davo' I did test with the F28, and horrified with the flare I switched and put the HD DA 20-40 on and set wide on the K-1 (FF mode). I was amazed at the flare control, it was actually superb, and wide open it's actually really nice 3d feel. I think the 20-40 will be coming with me to the wedding on Friday, just so I have a non flare 'group' portrait lens should the situation arise.

Nice coffee shots

Thanks. Going to have to find something more attractive to shoot...and practise with. Not saying that I don’t like my coffee.

Anyways, FA 28 it fairly old and it shows in shots like this. I could imagine of using my 15-30 rather than my 31, even if both of them flares.

[morenjavi]

Going to have to find something more attractive to shoot...and practise with. Not saying that I don’t like my coffee.

More attractive than my walls ?

As @morenjavi showed, another great use of the bare bulb is in combination with a reflector to shoot into an umbrella. You can also create round lighting patterns on a backdrop using such reflectors, without getting the round-head extension for the AD200.

I can show a sample here. Another pattern on a wall, but this time I added a daughter to add more interest . Inspired by Joe Edelman, this is a gradient done with the AD-S2, standard reflector and the cheap blue gel. You can get a more pronounced fall out by adding the grid (grid + gels are included with the AD-S11 accesory), or by placing the light closer to the wall.

So in my mind I am feeling currently that freshnel is more suited to event, and bulb for studio, just a hunch, maybe with certain modifiers I can make the bulb work better for running and gunning too, but I'm kinda running out of time right now to test that out.

After all the discussion about umbrellas, I have made a series of tests to find how the AD200 can fill bounce and translucent umbrellas, and the most important, if the way you fill an umbrella have a noticeable effect on the subject you want to illuminate. But I'll post about it later.

---------- Post added 24-10-19 at 01:32 AM ----------

Normally I would use the sunlight behind the subject as rim/hair light, but not necessarily in the shot itself. Something like this

I like #4; flash/ambient is well balanced, tone an color, very good.

[BruceBanner]

More attractive than my walls ?




I can show a sample here. Another pattern on a wall, but this time I added a daughter to add more interest . Inspired by Joe Edelman, this is a gradient done with the AD-S2, standard reflector and the cheap blue gel. You can get a more pronounced fall out by adding the grid (grid + gels are included with the AD-S11 accesory), or by placing the light closer to the wall.




After all the discussion about umbrellas, I have made a series of tests to find how the AD200 can fill bounce and translucent umbrellas, and the most important, if the way you fill an umbrella have a noticeable effect on the subject you want to illuminate. But I'll post about it later.

---------- Post added 24-10-19 at 01:32 AM ----------


I like #4; flash/ambient is well balanced, tone an color, very good.

I have the 7ft westcott shoot through as well as the parabolic ones, it's a gorgeous light that comes through it, thus far only tested using speedlights and not the AD200's, feels like a real replication to sunlight kinda vibe;







Like you I will also be conducting some tests with the AD200 and these umbrellas, messing around with heads, reflectors and stuff, that'll be a fun day

Shot No.4 is rather nice, a favourite of mine. Shot No.3 was left purposefully quite 'dark'. I really wanted to push those blacks. I tried increasing shadows but it felt like the menacing vibe lost its intensity, so I kept it dynamic and dark.