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09-24-2019, 01:36 PM - 1 Like   #1
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X2T-P received: first tests and first disappointment

Hello everybody:

In the middle of all the excitement for the new Pentax camera, I have received my X2T-P, that I ordered some days ago. So this day promised a lot.
This is not a detailed review, but just my impressions and quick tests.

BUILD QUALITY
I can't say if the plastics and construction are way better or worse than the XPro. I feel the XPro more robust... I like the texturized finish of the X2T more. Buttons seems of greater quality on the X2T. The X2T upper shoe seems robust, It can support a medium sized flash, but I think it's better to put a small one, just to handle the camera better if that's your idea. The Xpro have a soft cover for the USB and sync port; the X2T have the ports exposed. The main dial on the X2T, that you use to change power and other settings, feels better that the Xpro's main dial. And of course you have the nice lever lock foot.

TESTS WITH MY AD200
Change power, enable or disable the AD200, use manual or TTL mode, HSS ... everything seems to work as good or bad compared to the XproP. TTL needs the same adjustments as the Xpro, that is, when use HSS is better to compensate -0.7 or so.
Another test I did, was to control the AD200 in multi-master mode, with my XproP in one camera and the X2T on other one. It worked fine.

THE 'DELAY' SETTING
Ok, this was one of the main reasons to buy this trigger instead of another XproP: just to play with sync delay settings, because my idea was to sell my Cactus Triggers if this setting worked as the Cactus DELAY SYNC setting. So this setting does just exactly that, it adds a firing delay for your remote flash. This is good if you want to play and experiment. In my opinion, this setting have sense when your remote flash doesn't have HSS enabled. Then you can sync two ways:
A. 'exceed sync' (this is a term that David Hobby invented - here). This is to sync with your flash at speeds above sync speed, but just only up to 1/400 or so. First and second curtains doesn't cover the frame a lot, and you can get usable images and lower the ambient light, maybe a stop or more. For most Godox flashes, 4.4ms is a good setting.
B. Powersync/Hypersync. That is, you set your flash at full power (no HSS) and play with the setting to get the most light possible in the frame.
This setting doesn't enable or disable HSS on your remote flash, so you need to disable HSS to play with this setting. It's the same some of us did when we stacked the XProC on top of the Cactus V6-II months ago, before the XproP existed, to get HSS & power sync.
Honestly, playing with this setting is the only thing I do with my Cactus receivers, so my idea was to sell my Cactus triggers after buying the Godox one.


OTHER NICE FEATURES
Other features I like from this flash are the SCAN function that, well, scans and find what are the best channels to use in your area.
AF assist light is really nice
Top hotshoe. This shoe is a single pin one, so no TTL-pass or similar. It will fire your flash above sync speeds too.
I didn't test Bluetooth, sorry

MISSED FEATURES
Compared to the XProP you miss several features, like:

* lot of direct buttons to: select ALL groups, enable/disable MODeling light, CHannel or HSS sync
* zoom mode
* TCM. Yes, the X2T doesn't have TCM
* only A/B/C/D/E groups supported. The Xpro support up to 16 groups.

CAMERAS TESTED
I tested the X2T mainly with my K3-II camera, but also with my K5 an K10D. It's strange, but at the beggining, HSS was not working with my K5... but after some time of testing, it just worked. I have no idea about the problem... maybe dirty contacts on my K5, I don't know.

THE DISAPPOINTMENT
Ok, after testing this trigger with my AD200, I tested my old AD360 (mk I) and V850, flashes that need XTR16 receivers. Again, power control, HSS... everything seemed to work fine. Then I tested multi-master mode (in multi-master mode, the Godox trigger send all the power or ON/OFF settings to the remote flashes, and then, it fires) and noticed that the X2T didn't change any power setting. The Xpro did fine. Ok, not a big issue, modern triggers usually set all the remote flashes when you turn the trigger on. So turning off-on quickly is a safe way to set all your flashes with the trigger's setting. But this trick didn't worked with the X2T. So then I just made a simple test: enabling/disabling groups. I couldn't believe it, it didn't work at all. I couldn't enable of disable any flash with a XTR16 receiver.
This means that this trigger is unusable for me, I'm so disappointed... I hope this was a bug with this unit that will be solved soon... came on Godox, what's that?

Ok, that's all for now. If some of you have received this trigger, maybe you could make the same test I did with 'old' flashes. I liked to know if my unit is faulty, or it's a bug on the Pentax triggers. Thanks in advance.

Regards.


Last edited by morenjavi; 09-25-2019 at 12:31 AM.
09-25-2019, 05:27 AM   #2
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So does the X2T work fine with your XTR16 receives in standard mode?

Why do you need multi-master mode?
If the latter doesn't work, it is probably possible to work around that, e.g., by making a change to the trigger before taking another shot with it.

I should get my X2T-P in one or two days. However, I don't have any XTR16 receivers to test with.
09-25-2019, 11:28 AM   #3
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Hello


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
So does the X2T work fine with your XTR16 receives in standard mode?
No, using single or multimaster mode the problem is the same. I get a really 'buggy' behaviour with XTR16/XTR16s receivers. Setting the group to OFF/-- doesn't have any effect on v850/AD360 flashes. I did more tests and the trigger can enable a flash that was previously in OFF status. But, if you have a flash set to OFF, and you have your X2T trigger with the corresponding group set to OFF/-- too, and press the trigger button a couple times... the flash wakes up and fires, what is weird. This firmware seems buggy and not tested enough. With this firmware, this trigger is unusable for me, I have 3 Godox flashes, two of them need the XTR receivers. I can't disable when needed, and they will enable when not needed, it's great!

I have read the manual and it says clearly that this trigger is compatible with V850/AD360 flashes using XTR16/XTR16s receivers, so it's clear that the testing team didn't make its work. My hope is a future fix. I have noticed that X1T triggers have up to 19 firmware releases. Well, we are just on the first one v1.0 release for the X2T... so let's wait for the next

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Why do you need multi-master mode?If the latter doesn't work, it is probably possible to work around that, e.g., by making a change to the trigger before taking another shot with it.
I need multimaster mode because I use two cameras, with two triggers with different settings for my three lights. Multimaster is not so mandatory for me, because most modern Godox triggers (XT32/XPro) send all the settings to the remote flashes when you turn it ON, so when I had the XT32 as my second trigger, my trick was to turn it OFF-ON quickly before shooting, and this way I was sure that the configuration were set correctly. This is not needed with the Xpro with multimaster mode enabled, but you can forget about multimaster on the XPro and make the same (OFF-ON before shoot).
I'm afraid there is not workaround for this, it's not a problem of setting the power, but basic enabling/disabling groups. I need different groups enabled for main and second camera/trigger. My workaround is... to use my nice XT32, or my XproC, that I stil have (but I liked to sell).

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I should get my X2T-P in one or two days. However, I don't have any XTR16 receivers to test with.
Then you are lucky, you will not have problems for sure. My AD200 works fine with this trigger. Of course, if needed and your flash have USB port, You can change to buggy mode by disabling wireless on your flash, putting a XTR16 receiver, and enjoy
09-25-2019, 08:31 PM - 1 Like   #4
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Adding to morenjavi's first impressions I'm super disappointed to find the same inefficient group toggling approach on the X2T-P that exists on the XPro-P. I was hoping to be able to use just the group button to cycle through the modes (TTL/M/OFF) but one still has to use the mode button. In a video demonstration of the X2T (admittedly the Canon version) this was clearly different. Either the presenter used the Flashpoint version (but the unit had "Godox" written on it) or the Canon version works differently (EDIT: It doesn't), or the initial design was different and the demonstration was that of a prototype.

@inkista Would you know anything about this?

The above alone pretty much means that I'll always use the XPro-P instead and will just have to wait for the Flashpoint R2 Pro MarkII to arrive to obtain an efficient group toggling behaviour. Group toggling is so frequently needed when setting up lights that it should be way easier to achieve than using group buttons and the mode button in combination (plus longer than necessary cycles for groups A-C).

FWIW, on both triggers groups D and E do not support TTL so at least the toggling these groups does not require one to cycle through TTL as well all the time.
The Cactus V6II allows to configure an "TTL & M", "TTL only" or "M only" mode, making it faster to toggle groups if one never uses a mixed approach.

The other big problem on the X2T for me is that the dial operates the wrong way around. Intuitively, I want to pull my thumb outwards to increase values. Sadly, the X2T requires me to push it in.
Again, the Cactus V6(II) has a configuration option that let's one choose the dial direction.

I find the "long-press" delay way too long. It takes too long for the long press action to activate; with a "2s" delay one is literally waiting for the action to happen. I don't understand why they chose such a long delay, in particular because long presses are frequently needed for toggling the modelling light and selecting the "ALL" group selected behaviour. A regular button click is so much shorter and I don't think there would have been any confusion between short and long presses if they had made the long-press delay much shorter. FWIW, the long-press delay on the AD200 appears to be about half that long (and could be made shorter itself).

I was surprised to see that the delay is configurable in tenth of milliseconds. That's very precise!
However, I think that a maximum delay of 9.9ms is not long enough. It may just be enough to fine-tune HyperSyncing, but it is certainly not enough for other creative uses of delay. The V6 (II) offers a much wider range (but only millisecond resolution).

Having said that most creative uses depend on the flashes offering a delay function and Godox delivers here.

I briefly tested the Bluetooth functionality and as expected it worked.

Overall, it is good to have a backup trigger for now, but once I receive the Flashpoint R2 Pro MarkII, I'll probably sell the X2T-P. It's main differentiator to the Xpro is the top hot-shoe and I never use on-camera flashes. The additional Bluetooth functionality compared to the Xpro is great as well (the phone app isn't ideal but allows quicker group toggling than any of the triggers), but I'll get that through the Flashpoint R2 Pro MarkII (and the Godox A1).

EDIT: I may not sell the X2T-P after all. I noticed that I can operate a group button and the mode button at the same time (using index finger and thumb). That makes it quicker to toggle a couple of groups compared to the XPro where the natural way of operating is to use the thumb moving between the group buttons and the mode button. Hmmh, I'll have to play with the X2T-P a bit more.

As for the Cactus comparisons I made above, I mainly wanted to show that there is room for improvement regarding usability. I think that the Cactus V6 (II) is better thought through in terms of UI ergonomics (the V6 II makes some unfortunate choices too, though). Overall, however, I think there is no doubt that the Godox system overall is preferable since Cactus offer only the RF60X whereas Godox offers a full ecosystem of lighting solutions. In particular the AD200 is a super attractive option for on location use. Had Cactus been able to launch the RQ250, it may have become another story but I haven't seen any developments since the respective Kickstarter campaign narrowly missed its goal.

BTW, the dial on the X2T is much better than any V6 (II) dial. The clicks are very well defined, it's quite large and well-positioned.

One positive change compared to the Xpro is the hot-shoe lock lever which is quicker to operate than the XPro's wheel.

Another positive change is that it is possible to choose an EV-based power scale instead of the common but archaic fractional system. I hope this will come to the XproP as well through a firmware update.


Last edited by Class A; 09-27-2019 at 03:03 AM.
09-26-2019, 01:06 AM   #5
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I am combining Cactus V6II with TTL Passtrough and the Godox Xpro-P on top of it to use a mixed environment of different flashes. Works fine, with no issues.
09-26-2019, 01:09 AM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
inefficient group toggling approach
Agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I find the "long-press" delay way too long
Agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I think that a maximum delay of 9.9ms is not long enough
I compared this setting with the Cactus POWER SYNC ADJ. To set a 'exceed sync' scenario, I need about +10 on Cactus and 4.4ms on Godox. Both intervals seem roughly equivalent. If you need longer delays then it's not useful.

As I can't get FLASHPOINT versions, my option by now is to wait for a new firmware release that fixed the problems with XTR16 receiver. After selling some of my old speedlights, my plan is to get the V1, that have (I hope) good triggering capabilities. A setup with V1P on main camera and XproP on second camera can be adequate for me. This is really my main 'plan' for this year, turn camera+trigger+flash+bracket into camera+V1P.

Regards.
09-26-2019, 02:07 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
I compared this setting with the Cactus POWER SYNC ADJ.
Yeah, that's the best comparison to make. The Cactus "delay" feature can also be used for similar purposes but I guess the actually intended usages are different ones.

QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
To set a 'exceed sync' scenario, I need about +10 on Cactus and 4.4ms on Godox.
I guess you have to activate HSS on the Godox trigger, right?

Otherwise the camera should think that there is no HSS-capable flash on the hot-shoe and hence refuse to send a trigger signal at all if the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed.
09-26-2019, 02:14 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Setting the group to OFF/-- doesn't have any effect on v850/AD360 flashes.
Unfortunately, I think I've read someone else complain about this. Too bad that it doesn't work as intended.
The XTR16 receives are servicing legacy technology so probably making them fully work in combination with the modern triggers isn't high up the priority list.

QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
You can change to buggy mode by disabling wireless on your flash, putting a XTR16 receiver, and enjoy
Yeah, I may try that ...

... OR NOT!

09-26-2019, 11:12 AM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
I compared this setting with the Cactus POWER SYNC ADJ. To set a 'exceed sync' scenario, I need about +10 on Cactus and 4.4ms on Godox. Both intervals seem roughly equivalent. If you need longer delays then it's not useful.
+24 for the AD200, I made a mistake. So there is more range on the Godox.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I guess you have to activate HSS on the Godox trigger, right? Otherwise the camera should think that there is no HSS-capable flash on the hot-shoe and hence refuse to send a trigger signal at all if the shutter speed exceeds the sync-speed.
If I want to use just the X2T and Godox flashes then yes, I need to enable HSS sync on the trigger. Whitout HSS sync enabled, the trigger limits the camera speed to 1/180 (in APS-C cameras) and you can't go beyond. Then I need to disable HSS on the remote Godox flash. It's easy for old flashes that use the XTR16 receiver because you can enable/disable HSS on the flash. It's a bit more complicated on flashes like the AD200, but it can be done too.

To make the same setup with Cactus+XProP (X2T seems to work too), settings are more or less like this (old HSS firmware):
* On Cactus trigger I set MANUAL FLASH, POWER SYNC and set the POWER SYNC ADJ (+24 for the AD200)
* Godox trigger on top, no matter if HSS sync is set or not.
* Godox flash with HSS disabled.
* Set your camera speed in the range 1/200-1/400 and adjust POWER SYNC ADJ

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Unfortunately, I think I've read someone else complain about this. Too bad that it doesn't work as intended. The XTR16 receives are servicing legacy technology so probably making them fully work in combination with the modern triggers isn't high up the priority list.
It sounds reasonable, but on the X2T manual, section "Compatible flash models", AD360 and V850 (with the corresponding XTR16 receivers) are listed as compatible.
So, in my opinion, it's not a matter of doing 'our best effort with old flashes', they have marked such flashes as compatible with this trigger. Also, isn't the XproP a modern trigger that works perfectly with these flashes ? Why the X2T can't ? Sure it can, it's just the firmware that needs to be fixed.

Regards.
09-27-2019, 05:30 PM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Adding to morenjavi's first impressions I'm super disappointed to find the same inefficient group toggling approach on the X2T-P that exists on the XPro-P. I was hoping to be able to use just the group button to cycle through the modes (TTL/M/OFF) but one still has to use the mode button. In a video demonstration of the X2T (admittedly the Canon version) this was clearly different. Either the presenter used the Flashpoint version (but the unit had "Godox" written on it) or the Canon version works differently (EDIT: It doesn't), or the initial design was different and the demonstration was that of a prototype.

@inkista Would you know anything about this?
Nope. But Godox tends to screw up UI refinements like this. That's why Adorama did the R2 Pro II on their own. No matter how many times elv tells them, they tend to resist on things like implementing single-pin mode. If you read through the comments threads on flash havoc, you'll see this is a repeated complaint for a bunch of their gear.

Also, the XTR16 issues are also something they're likely to ignore. To them, that's old gear nobody should be using any more. Fuji users only coincidentally got an "off-label" fix for XTR16 HSS not working. But I would also say the multi group stuff (probably reverse engineered of Canon's Gr mode) wasn't part of the original FT16 system design, which is what the XT16 triggers are based on. I'm not sure that a fix is likely to arrive.

Like Yongnuo, Godox is more likely to "fix" the issue with a new model, rather than going back (i.e., get a V850II instead of a V850, use an AD360II instead of an AD360). And iirc, the V850, like the V850 II, and the XT16 triggers can't be firmware upgraded, anyway.

It's not like PocketWizard, where they're invested in making sure their older stuff integrates seamlessly with their newer stuff.
09-27-2019, 11:27 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
That's why Adorama did the R2 Pro II on their own.
I'm so glad they did.

Now they just need to deliver the R2 Pro II for Pentax. It's been on "backorder" at Adorama for a while now.
I'm not complaining too much, though, as it initially looked like they wouldn't do the Pentax version at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
No matter how many times elv tells them, they tend to resist on things like implementing single-pin mode.
Very, very strange. I've been in a similar position. I presented irrefutable cases but the response was just inaction. All the more puzzling as companies would really help themselves, if they accepted good advice.

QuoteOriginally posted by inkista Quote
But I would also say the multi group stuff (probably reverse engineered of Canon's Gr mode) wasn't part of the original FT16 system design, which is what the XT16 triggers are based on.
Yes, protocol changes can be difficult to deal with. However, according to morenjavi, the Xpro manages to be sufficiently compatible with the XT16 receivers so it would appear to be just a matter of removing bugs in the X2T firmware. It's a possibility that they decided to drop some legacy support for the X2T for better efficiency but then the X2T should not be advertised as being compatible with the XT16 receivers.

Last edited by Class A; 12-18-2019 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Inserted "not" between "should" and "be advertised"
09-28-2019, 12:23 PM - 1 Like   #12
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Thanks @Class A & @inkista for your contributions.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Yes, protocol changes can be difficult to deal with. However, according to morenjavi, the Xpro manages to be sufficiently compatible with the XT16 receivers so it would appear to be just a matter of removing bugs in the X2T firmware. It's a possibility that they decided to drop some legacy support for the X2T for better efficiency but then the X2T should be advertised as being compatible with the XT16 receivers.
That's the point. The XProP can handle legacy flashes without any issue (normal and HSS speeds, power changes, enabling/disabling ...), is fully compatible with XT16R receivers, as advertised. But it's not a matter of whether they could add support, they must add support, or they don't care about support for legacy flashes: They explicitly say that the new trigger supports those legacy receivers and flashes. Just look at page 42 of the X2T-P manual, that I attach here. For me is clear.

Let me explain why I think this is a bug and not a lack of compatibility made on purpose to force users to buy new flashes:

1. Page 42 of the manual, they say this trigger supports legacy receivers and flashes. Period.

2. The X2TP really can control (partially) AD360/V850 flashes, that is, the trigger can:


* enable a disabled flash when you set the M mode on the trigger
* change the power of the flash correctly
* fire and sync correctly with your camera
* fire and sync in HSS mode
* fire and sync using the delay setting
* when the trigger is powered on, they send the configuration to the flash, so the flash power is set, as was configured on the trigger. If the flash was previously in OFF status, it's set ON. This is the same behaviour than XT32 & XPro triggers.
* when you press the trigger's test button, it happens the same as the previous point, the flash receives the configuration, is enabled if needed, etc

3. Buggy behaviour. This is what it's wrong, and I think if just buggy programming, and not 'incompatible hardware' problem. Details from my tests:

* when you set the channel to OFF/-- status, the flash is not set to OFF, never. I noticed that no signal is sent to the flash (you don't see the receiver's led blinking at all). It's not a problem of imcompatible signals or that the trigger and the receiver don't talk correctly each other, just nothing is sent from the trigger to the receiver.
* when you set OFF/-- status on the trigger, it seems to not have any effect on the trigger real configuration, that is, you see '--' on the X2T display, but if you power your trigger OFF-ON, the flash is set to ON too (you still see '--' on the trigger). Also, if you push the test button, the flash is set to ON too. The power setting sent to the flash on both cases is the power you had on the X2T before cycling to OFF/-- status. You see '--' on the X2T display but you still remains on M mode with the previous power setting.

This is why I think the problem is a bug in the firmware. I'm still innocently waiting for them to fix the bug.

I could understand that Godox wanted to force users to get new (modern) flashes; but if it's the case, be honest, and write clearly on advertisements and manuals, that new triggers are not compatible with old receivers, users will make correct buying decisions, and everybody will be happy. Just my opinion.

I've been delighted with Godox and I'm usually recommending they a lot in the forum, but I will have to be careful from now on. I'm thinking in the V1P now ... will it have the same buggy behaviour with my legacy flashes, when configured as a transmitter ? When Godox says that some device supports the X system, I'm including the XTR16 receivers there (what does the 'X' on XTR16 means?), so I just expect that the V1P could handle any device 'X system compatible', but I'm not sure now, and it could be a worse disappointment if the V1P does not handle my legacy flashes. Honestly, I never thought about this before testing the X2T-P.
Advice to myself: buy on distributors with easy return policies.

Sorry for the long post. Regards, Javier.
12-18-2019, 03:40 AM   #13
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Sorry for a donkey question:
is X2T-P compatible with non-Godox flashes?
I would need to make it friendly to Shanny 600FGZ and Pentax 540
12-18-2019, 03:11 PM - 2 Likes   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by intense Quote
is X2T-P compatible with non-Godox flashes?
Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that you can use a cheap single pin transceiver as a receiver to make any non-Godox flashes fire, using the X2T-P as a transmitter.

No, in the sense that P-TTL and HSS will not be supported. Only if your flashes are Canon/Nikon compatible then you can use respective dedicated X1R receivers to control your speedlights.

QuoteOriginally posted by intense Quote
I would need to make it friendly to Shanny 600FGZ and Pentax 540
You could obtain remote power level control, including automated metering and HSS by using the Cactus V6II. You'd need three units (one for the camera and two for the speedlights).
12-20-2019, 03:23 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Yes, in the sense that you can use a cheap single pin transceiver as a receiver to make any non-Godox flashes fire, using the X2T-P as a transmitter.
So, any tranceivers which can use several radio channels will be okay to use?
Sometimes I just need a manual flash to light up the background, but I assume it should be able to reduce power down to 1/64 for instance.
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