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01-21-2020, 04:39 AM - 1 Like   #1
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AF Assist/Modelling Light Strategy

Hi guys and gals, I need your help.

I did an impromptu event on the weekend that was not entirely planned. I ended up being the tog for this party/ball at a local festival, so I wasn't exactly well equipped for it. But I muddled through anyway.

One thing that did occur on the night and became a bit of a problem (that I vowed to research and fix for next time) was the issue of obtaining AF reliably for the guest posed shots. I believe I encountered this in the past but shrugged it off and forgot how annoying it was, this time it was pretty bad and actually resulted in quite a few shots suffering.

Included in this post is a couple of example shots where I managed ok for focus. I was -2.3 EV for these shots as I wanted to capture the ambient light of the room to taste, in this case I was driving for the colours in the room and give priority to the LED lights wrapping around the columns. I'm relying on a simple 80cm octosoftbox as key light for the posed guests.





EXIF on a couple of shots;

1/13 (flash freezes subject so no issue being this low, not a concern in this instance, happy to have blurry people in the backdrop tbh)
f4 (widest aperture of this zoom lens)
ISO 800
-2.3EV

Settings wise I could have lowered shutter speed a tad more perhaps and had ISO 400, but really I'm ok with 800 as the ISO, the K-1 does provide pretty good clean shots at this ISO.

The issue is, to get the room exposed at -2.3 EV meant it was quite dark, and the subjects were pretty much silhouettes for the AF system to try and lock onto.

I was using the Xpro-P and the AF Assist on, but I never ever saw any red beam or anything come out of the unit. I only ever saw my green AF assist light come from my camera, but it too was quite weak and unhelpful to the situation, too slow to hunt and lock. It goes something like this;

- People ready for the shot
- I half press the shutter for obtaining focus, the camera tries once without AF assist coming on at all, and fails (red focus box)
- I half press the shutter again and this time the camera understands from last failed attempt it needs help and so activates the AF assist beam, sometimes it got a lock on and sometimes not, sometimes it took 2-3 more attempts with the AF assist even kicking in.
- Finally I get to take the shot, chimp and are happy with the light, but someone had their eyes closed so now we need to repeat.

Pretty ridiculous for a relatively simple posed shot. All of this would be resolved if I had some kind of solution to helping the camera see in the dark (I tried many different modes such as Face Detection, Spot, whatever). Using PDAF/OVF (eye piece) was even harder because it was just extremely dim to see through even to frame the shot etc.

Some questions/solutions I am thinking of;

- Perhaps the Xpro-P or X2T AF Assist will only come on if my own camera settings sets the AF Assist to being off? I did not actually try disabling mine. Perhaps that makes a big difference and the trigger AF Assist light works and is much better and resolves this?

AF Assist needs to be on in camera I believe but the trigger AF Assist will only work in PDAF mode.

- Have you lovely people found the AF Assist Beam on the triggers good on whatever brand of camera/trigger you're using? When does it want to actually help out? Can the AF Assist Beam from your trigger work along with the AF Assist Beam of your camera? Or have you found it to be one or the other?

It wants to help out during PDAF only.

- I could not use the modelling light of my AD200 because I was using an inefficient softbox which is the umbrella style and the unit faces back to front. If I invested in a forward facing softbox instead, would the modelling light be a good solution to push through the diffusion panels and help with light for AF?

- I have recently acquired a V1, I have not fully read up on it, but could this not replace the Xpro trigger in this instance, even act as light fill also? The idea being I perhaps whack a magsphere on the V1, point it directly at the group, use its modelling light to help the camera gain focus. Can it be used in such a way that if I did not like the fill light it could be used as just a modelling light to assist with AF and then just trigger for the AD200 and not contribute to the overall exposure?

TIA!

BB

01-21-2020, 05:00 AM - 1 Like   #2
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Nice photos considering the adverse conditions.The technique of using a longer exposure to balance dim ambient light with flash is commonly referred to [in Australia] as Dragging the shutter.


Most octaboxes have a double scrim - one on the front and one is internal for creating more consistent light spread. If you remove the outer scrim the modelling light from the AD200 might be a little bit more helpful for PDAF and the upshot of removing the front scrim is the efficiency of the light modifier is enhanced, the light becomes more directional. The downside is the light becomes a bit harder, which may not be quite so flattering in portraits of women.

Last edited by Digitalis; 01-21-2020 at 05:08 AM.
01-21-2020, 05:19 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Nice photos considering the adverse conditions.The technique of using a longer exposure to balance dim ambient light with flash is commonly referred to [in Australia] as Dragging the shutter.


Most octaboxes have a double scrim - one on the front and one is internal for creating more consistent light spread. If you remove the outer scrim the modelling light from the AD200 might be a little bit more helpful for PDAF and the upshot of removing the front scrim is the efficiency of the light modifier is enhanced, the light becomes more directional. The downside is the light becomes a bit harder, which may not be quite so flattering in portraits of women.
This octabox was just an umbrella type with the flash rear facing, so the modelling light didn't help at all, or at least I turned it on and it didn't do much, perhaps there are different power levels and it was set to low? I'll have a look into that. I have heard the modelling light also drains the battery quite significantly so use with caution etc.

Since making this post I have tested my V1. It seems I can get my Xpro-P to trigger the modelling light on off, however upon taking the shot the modelling light stays on. Damn. Same for the AD200 too. So it would be a process of getting ready for the shot, locking exposure, hitting the modelling light to assist with AF, locking on, but not firing yet because I then have to turn off the modelling light before taking the shot...

Unless... the power of the flash just completely obliterates the power of the modelling light and its not really recorded in the 1/13th shutter speed shot? Hmm....
01-21-2020, 06:19 AM   #4
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I'll be following this thread Bruce as I'm ordering the V1 today for a model event I have coming up early next month taking place in several relatively dark interior spaces. I'm debating between relying on a 34" soupbowl (Cheetah) with AD200, pretty similar to your octabox setup, and the V1 with dome diffuser and/or 55cm Triopo octabox handheld which is where I'm leaning. It will be relatively fast-paced shoot and I'm afraid the big modifier and lightstand won't be quite adaptable for it tho I'll certainly include it for certain shots. The smaller FA31 and 77 aren't a problem one-handed but I'd love to use the HD DFA50 and it's really too heavy for that.

Like you I've also had auto-focus issues in those types of locales in the past and had planned on using the modeling lights to assist if need be, and yes I have spare batteries for both the V1 and AD200's. Spare batteries for the trigger too since I use two cameras and two triggers controlling the lights, one a Godox Mini TTL flash. The X-Pro empties darn quick when communicating two-way for every shot. Found that out inconveniently. :/
Practicing with it in the studio this weekend but very much look forward to your findings. Perhaps the idea of using the modeling light for AF assist won't be the solution I'm wanting, and that's the primary reason I ordered the V1. I already have the 860Vii which otherwise fills the need for a speedlight.


Last edited by gatorguy; 01-21-2020 at 06:31 AM.
01-21-2020, 10:55 AM   #5
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Does the phrase "guest posed shots" preclude having a line on the floor that guests stand on that you have manually focused for using a modeling light that is then left off? Would this fail due to limited depth of field and a desire for perfect face focus?
01-21-2020, 11:10 AM   #6
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Eddy, I don't know about modeling light levels adjustment on AD200Pro, but AD400Pro has capability to adjust from 20 to 100 percent. In case I shoot in darker environment, I use modeling light to adjust position of strobe as well as to autofocus assist. Yes, LED at max power drains battery of the strobe quite quickly, one time I shot with modeling light almost always on, so, just about 2 hours long before battery was empty. But it could be possible to use lower levels of modeling light. I hope AD200Pro can do that as well. Any way, if you use modeling light extensively, buy second battery for your AD200Pro. BTW, I did order power block for my AD400Pro because I use modeling light quite extensively during photoshooting. In this case I need electrical cable as well, but this is not problem when I shoot in "studio".


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01-21-2020, 01:11 PM   #7
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Separate continuous LED light on the subjects? Worked for me when I tried it. I used a Manfrotto Lumimuse on a stand. Colour temp good match to flash and adjustable luminance so can vary to not get included in ambient part of the exposure.

I assume a faster lens would help. I've concluded this is why the FA77 focuses so well in low light.
01-21-2020, 04:06 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Separate continuous LED light on the subjects? Worked for me when I tried it. I used a Manfrotto Lumimuse on a stand. Colour temp good match to flash and adjustable luminance so can vary to not get included in ambient part of the exposure.

I assume a faster lens would help. I've concluded this is why the FA77 focuses so well in low light.
I have two of those I've rarely used. Pretty much forgot about them, but perhaps you've given me a good idea. Thanks!!

01-21-2020, 04:18 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
I'll be following this thread Bruce as I'm ordering the V1 today for a model event I have coming up early next month taking place in several relatively dark interior spaces. I'm debating between relying on a 34" soupbowl (Cheetah) with AD200, pretty similar to your octabox setup, and the V1 with dome diffuser and/or 55cm Triopo octabox handheld which is where I'm leaning. It will be relatively fast-paced shoot and I'm afraid the big modifier and lightstand won't be quite adaptable for it tho I'll certainly include it for certain shots. The smaller FA31 and 77 aren't a problem one-handed but I'd love to use the HD DFA50 and it's really too heavy for that.

Like you I've also had auto-focus issues in those types of locales in the past and had planned on using the modeling lights to assist if need be, and yes I have spare batteries for both the V1 and AD200's. Spare batteries for the trigger too since I use two cameras and two triggers controlling the lights, one a Godox Mini TTL flash. The X-Pro empties darn quick when communicating two-way for every shot. Found that out inconveniently. :/
Practicing with it in the studio this weekend but very much look forward to your findings. Perhaps the idea of using the modeling light for AF assist won't be the solution I'm wanting, and that's the primary reason I ordered the V1. I already have the 860Vii which otherwise fills the need for a speedlight.
Glad to hear I am not the only one experiencing this.

When I do studio work I am in X Mode which results in the Live View screen holding a consistent well exposed framing to help with seeing what's going on even if my settings are knocking out ambient light. Going up to 1/200 helps achieve that, but the room can still be well lit and so it's not an issue to obtain focus. I don't often mix ambient and flash light together or if I do it's outdoors in a very bright HSS way and so again AF is never an issue. I seem to find myself seldom in situations whereby I am trying to mix low level ambient with flash and it's in these conditions that X Mode cannot help (as 1/90 is still too high) and I am just shooting 'in the dark'.

Last night the V1 modelling light was helpful but I was disappointed to see it not toggle off for the actual shot. This was when using the Xpro-P however, I have yet to try the V1 in the hot shoe of the camera and controlling the AD200 and thus leaving the Xpro out of the picture. It could be that when it has proper connection to the camera the modelling light will toggle off when the shot is actually fired. I note that it looks a lot warmer than the white flash that it fires out. I have two AD200 pros so I could perhaps either use one unit and keep the other battery as a spare, or join them together in a softbox with the intention of providing a sufficient modelling light output to assist with AF.


QuoteOriginally posted by kaseki Quote
Does the phrase "guest posed shots" preclude having a line on the floor that guests stand on that you have manually focused for using a modeling light that is then left off? Would this fail due to limited depth of field and a desire for perfect face focus?
It does, and I placed a green x with duct tape on the carpet for them to stand on, but I found even at f4 with the 12-24, if they moved a little from the time I obtained focus to getting the shot they could be soft. It seems even f4 could be a thin DoF for this kinda setup, factor in happy joyful boozed up adults and a lot of them will not even stay on the X spot for long So unfortunately AF is required I think and manual focus cannot be used easily because the OVF is too dark and the Live View is also showing them as being heavy silhouettes.

QuoteOriginally posted by Medex Quote
Eddy, I don't know about modeling light levels adjustment on AD200Pro, but AD400Pro has capability to adjust from 20 to 100 percent. In case I shoot in darker environment, I use modeling light to adjust position of strobe as well as to autofocus assist. Yes, LED at max power drains battery of the strobe quite quickly, one time I shot with modeling light almost always on, so, just about 2 hours long before battery was empty. But it could be possible to use lower levels of modeling light. I hope AD200Pro can do that as well. Any way, if you use modeling light extensively, buy second battery for your AD200Pro. BTW, I did order power block for my AD400Pro because I use modeling light quite extensively during photoshooting. In this case I need electrical cable as well, but this is not problem when I shoot in "studio".


MG
AD200pro and V1 seem to have no power control for the modelling light, I checked that last night and couldn't find a way to boost the modelling light power from an AD200. Am I to take it that because the modelling light does not 'turn off' for the shot that this doesn't matter because presumably even the lowest flash output is stronger than the modelling light and the flash discharge would 'go over the top' of the modelling and make it null void? I just found it odd that the V1 has a warm modelling light, the AD200 looks cool white (the same as its flash discharge presumably).

As this was an unexpected event I covered and stepped into last minute, I didn't have my optimal gear. In fact I set out to try something different in the day time by using WB around 9000k (Shade) and using 1/2CTB for some outdoor flash work, just to test with etc. I was only using a 80cm octosoftbox, the umbrella kind where the flash head points backwards, so modelling light in this instance was not really doing much at all. A proper softbox no doubt may help, but if you're still planning to using a gel or something it is additional things it has to fight before reaching out of the diffusion panels and assist with AF for the shots. I'm concerned that the AD200 modelling light within any softbox will not be sufficient to help with AF and I will need to carry something like the V1 and just mount it somewhere (even on camera) to help with focusing.


QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Separate continuous LED light on the subjects? Worked for me when I tried it. I used a Manfrotto Lumimuse on a stand. Colour temp good match to flash and adjustable luminance so can vary to not get included in ambient part of the exposure.

I assume a faster lens would help. I've concluded this is why the FA77 focuses so well in low light.
That might work, I'm trying to stop purchasing more stuff however and try and work with what I already have. A different lens may have better AF, but in this case using my FA77 would not have been my choice, a completely different perspective than the one I wanted, and even if using f2 or something this would also give way to a different DoF look than what I wanted. It's possible that a 21mm lens at f4 would be faster than what the DA 12-24 was managing, this was my first time trialling this lens for this kinda work so I dunno if it was just really struggling...
01-21-2020, 04:32 PM   #10
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Been there done that with the low light AF issues when I was doing NIghtclub Event photography.
The AF beam on the flash or the camera wasn't enough so I started packing a small LED flashlight and used that to point at the subjects enough to have the camera lock focus.
I know the situation is different since with nightclubs, I wasn't able to use a set location with an umbrella/softbox on a stand etc. But for the AF problem, the small flashlight worked like a charm and only took 1 second to use and turn off.
01-21-2020, 06:20 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobie Quote
Been there done that with the low light AF issues when I was doing NIghtclub Event photography.
The AF beam on the flash or the camera wasn't enough so I started packing a small LED flashlight and used that to point at the subjects enough to have the camera lock focus.
I know the situation is different since with nightclubs, I wasn't able to use a set location with an umbrella/softbox on a stand etc. But for the AF problem, the small flashlight worked like a charm and only took 1 second to use and turn off.
Yes, I can imagine nightclub work to be very similar conditions to what I experienced, and even harder because some of the shots will be more candid for nightclub event work and you just need the shot immediately. As I said before, this was too bad an experience to ignore and must be resolved, it took sometimes 30secs to get a single good shot of a couple of people when really it should have been 3 secs. It did depend, sometimes AF just worked right away and it was a one take snap, done in 3 secs, othertimes it needed retakes.

I guess what I'm looking for is more automation. I'm hearing now (elsewhere) that the modelling light is so weak on the V1 or AD200, that any flash that comes from it will just blast over it and the modelling light should not be recorded in the actual shot. I will have to so some testing to see if that is right. I'm still just not that keen for the process, more AE/L etc to ensure I am not setting my ambient light accidentally to record the modelling light info as well. I really can't help feeling that what I want is some cool kick a$$ AF Assist light that works in Live View mode (or any mode) and thus is not recorded when setting up for the shot etc.
01-21-2020, 09:00 PM   #12
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well considering you can't control the output of the modelling lights on either of your off camera strobes. As a part of my EDC kit I have a Nitecore TIP2* LED flashlight on my keyring which can output 720 lumens at the press of a button which is useful for getting an accurate AF lock on subjects in dim lighting.

The upshot of using such a bright light is that the subjects pupil won't be so dilated in the image therefore reduces the chance of red-eye making them look like they are coked out party freaks.


QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
what I want is some cool kick a$$ AF Assist light that works in Live View mode (or any mode) and thus is not recorded when setting up for the shot etc.
Looks like the only way you are going to get that is with the aforementioned LED flashlight - your cheapest option. Or by getting a pair of powerful battery powered monobloc strobes which can easily cost several thousand.

* the TIP2 is very sturdy and compact, about the size of most electronic keyfobs. It also has USB recharging capability along with a pair of magnets on the rear of the unit which allow for hands free use.

Last edited by Digitalis; 01-21-2020 at 10:27 PM.
01-22-2020, 03:57 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
well considering you can't control the output of the modelling lights on either of your off camera strobes. As a part of my EDC kit I have a Nitecore TIP2* LED flashlight on my keyring which can output 720 lumens at the press of a button which is useful for getting an accurate AF lock on subjects in dim lighting.

The upshot of using such a bright light is that the subjects pupil won't be so dilated in the image therefore reduces the chance of red-eye making them look like they are coked out party freaks.




Looks like the only way you are going to get that is with the aforementioned LED flashlight - your cheapest option. Or by getting a pair of powerful battery powered monobloc strobes which can easily cost several thousand.

* the TIP2 is very sturdy and compact, about the size of most electronic keyfobs. It also has USB recharging capability along with a pair of magnets on the rear of the unit which allow for hands free use.
I was wrong about the strobes not having variable power for the modelling light, the V1 does, I just discovered now, so I'm thinking perhaps the AD200pro does as well...

Thing is, I just did a small test (in a darkish room, it's night time here);

Av mode, -2.3ev, ISO 200, shutter 1/6, f3.5

Take the shot with flash firing at 1/256

Second shot, this time I locked the exposure using the AE/L button before activating the V1 modelling light (so that the exposure triangle variables are exactly the same as above but now has the modelling light to help), focused and took the shot.

I compare the two shots and indeed there is a difference between the frames. It could be that because the flash power was too weak 1/256 or something, it was just not enough power to 'wipe out' the contributing modelling light. I have no problem with the light staying on so long as its not recorded in the shot, but this small demo here suggests it is and can, it just might depend on a lot of variables.

And of course it's annoying to have to continually re AE/L the exposure after every shot and turn the modelling light off to do that lock, AE/L doesn't seem to stay locked after a shot using flash (it can be at other times I've noted... curious...).
I was hoping I could get the settings I was happy with in Av mode and then just change to Manual mode in the system, but alas that seems to scrap the settings you landed on previously (it replaced my 1/6th with a 1/125. I guess being in Manual mode would make the whole AE/L aspect null void, but still... this is getting kinda convoluted a little for what should be something simple (a decent AF Assist might that comes on when when the shutter button is pressed and goes off for the shot).

The problem I discovered on the night is it appears I was riding a line that was close to what Pentax thought it could get away with without bringing in the AF Assist. It was like clockwork, a new couple steps in front of the camera for the shot, the first time I try to focus would fail and I would not see a green light come from the camera to help, second time it got the message and used the AF assist light to help with the shot, but also I think it's quite a centred only beam of light, not one that spreads out. So in my above shots, if I was using Face Detection then it didn't work well as the AF Assist Beam was hitting their chests and not their faces, I would need to use a different AF Mode and that's problematic if one day the shots are going to be more wide open apertures and the DoF too thin to rely on face focus from a lock on their chests...

Really it feels like AF Assist is not the solution here and some separate light is, is there no such device that will toggle off for the shot when it has sensed flash fire or something?
01-22-2020, 06:19 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
it was just not enough power to 'wipe out' the contributing modelling light.
Stop your lens down more dammit! that will prevent the modeling light from adding to the exposure. But that will also attenuate ambient light which you might also want to capture.



QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
alas that seems to scrap the settings you landed on previously (it replaced my 1/6th with a 1/125. I guess being in Manual mode would make the whole AE/L aspect null void
This might seem obvious, did you try just staying in manual and use the green button?



QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
this is getting kinda convoluted a little for what should be something simple
The more convoluted things get for an on location shoot the higher the probability that things will go wrong.
01-22-2020, 10:28 AM   #15
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I'll follow the thread too, as I plan to buy the V1 in one or two months. My idea is to use V1 on camera, TTL mode, controlling other flashes.

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I was wrong about the strobes not having variable power for the modelling light, the V1 does, I just discovered now, so I'm thinking perhaps the AD200pro does as well...
As far as I know, the fresnel head, that is the head with a modelling light inside, doesn't have levels. I only know an accesory for the AD200 with modelling light and levels: the AD-B2. It has a quite bright led inside with power levels (100%-50-25-OFF), but I think this option can be discarded: this thing weighs almost a kilogram, and the leds drain a lot of battery (also levels can't be controlled remotely, just switched ON/OFF).
I think that the AD400 have a setting that disable the modelling light just when you shoot, but I'm afraid the AD200 is less sophisticated.
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