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02-24-2020, 12:36 PM - 2 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
As is being said: wireless & manual is the way to go - forget ttl.The way light intensity dropping rapidly over distance is your friend (Inverse square law), however a strip of cheap velvet is very handy as a backdrop and makes things easier. Velvet absorbs light very efficiently and is easy to store and hang. Doesn't need ironing either. It's there to take an almost black background (using inverse square law) to full black and any creases are not noticed and easily cleaned up in post if they occur.Without a backdrop, I've found there's always something that gets into the frame that's not quite black. Yes you can often clean it up, but why not use fabric or a paper roll and make life easier?
Agree here, wireless & manual is recommended. Radio triggers are better than optical triggering, long-term, IMHO. I remember that when I started using OCF I used optical triggering and faced similar problems with the main flash that I used to trigger remote flashes. When I finally started to use radio triggers everything improved.

Although the inverse square law can help to darken your background, you can need up to 5 stops of background underexposure to get something really black, and you'll need to put your flashes maybe too close to your subject, taking care of spilling, etc. So it's easier if you start with a black or grey background. I've using a heavy black velvet fabric as a backdrop, but I recently bought a collapsible black/white background from Lencarta. Not perfect but not too expensive. I'm not sure about the fabric material, but it has a feature that I love: you can light it easily with gels, without needing too much power. Adding a patch of color adds depth in my opinion. With a backdrop, you have the option to add it or not, easily.

I'm still learnig but I'm loving using color gels. A sample with black backdrop+color gel here .



02-24-2020, 02:00 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by morenjavi Quote
Although the inverse square law can help to darken your background, you can need up to 5 stops of background underexposure to get something really black, and you'll need to put your flashes maybe too close to your subject, taking care of spilling, etc. So it's easier if you start with a black or grey background. I've using a heavy black velvet fabric as a backdrop, but I recently bought a collapsible black/white background from Lencarta. Not perfect but not too expensive. I'm not sure about the fabric material, but it has a feature that I love: you can light it easily with gels, without needing too much power. Adding a patch of color adds depth in my opinion. With a backdrop, you have the option to add it or not, easily.

I'm still learnig but I'm loving using color gels. A sample with black backdrop+color gel here .
I suspect we might think alone the same lines with this: black/white collapsible is a great choice, but for the finessing of a glow behind the subject, especially a gelled one, a mid-grey is, I think, an even better backdrop. You can take a grey to white or black easily enough and then add a gently glow as required.
02-24-2020, 02:05 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Thanks for the clarification here. It is much appreciated due to potential confusion over terms. There is a small and quite reasonable deviation here of Pentax terminology ("Slave 1" vs. "Slave 2") from the conventions used on fully manual speedlights; the speedlight convention being "S1" to fire from any flash with "S2" meaning to ignore preflash. Thanks for pointing this out.


Steve
What I found was that the off-camera flash when set to Slave 2 (SL 2) does indeed fire on the first flash from the on-camera flash, but it also fires on the second flash as well. With the camera set to the 2 second delay, with the on-camera flash set to P-TTL, you end up with the pre-flash, followed by a two second delay, followed by the main flash. For my test the off-camera flash fired twice, once with the pre-flash and again with the main flash. The off-camera flash was a Pentax AF540FGZ II in Wireless - Slave mode; the on-camera flash was a YN585EX in PTTL mode. The bottom line being that it appears that the Pentax fires whenever it sees another flash.

The firing on the first or pre-flash may be Pentax specific, as I had a different result using a Flashpoint TTL (Godox) flash for Olympus/Panasonic Micro 4/3. When this flash was set to manual SL2, mode, it ignored the pre-flash and fired on the main or second flash. I don't have a strictly manual flash nearby to try this with, but I'd expect it too would fire on the second flash, ignoring the pre-flash.
02-24-2020, 05:17 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
What I found was that the off-camera flash when set to Slave 2 (SL 2) does indeed fire on the first flash from the on-camera flash, but it also fires on the second flash as well. With the camera set to the 2 second delay, with the on-camera flash set to P-TTL, you end up with the pre-flash, followed by a two second delay, followed by the main flash. For my test the off-camera flash fired twice, once with the pre-flash and again with the main flash. The off-camera flash was a Pentax AF540FGZ II in Wireless - Slave mode; the on-camera flash was a YN585EX in PTTL mode. The bottom line being that it appears that the Pentax fires whenever it sees another flash.
What you describe above is what @pschlute described and what I elaborated on. "Slave 2" is equivalent to SL1 mode on your Godox. Pentax does not support equivalent to SL2.

Note: Using the two second delay to separate the pre-flash from the main flash gave the slave time to charge and fire again in response to the main. Your Godox in SL1 mode should do similar.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 02-24-2020 at 05:57 PM.
02-24-2020, 09:53 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Note: Using the two second delay to separate the pre-flash from the main flash gave the slave time to charge and fire again in response to the main
Indeed. In fact the state of charge of the batteries and the output level chosen on the slave will also have a bearing on whether it can respond to both pre and main flash if using 2sec timer

I discovered this behaviour in slave 2 mode on the AF360 during my early experimentation with optical triggering. Using normal shutter triggering I found I was able to see the slave firing through the viewfinder but it was not contributing to the shot itself. It was firing on the Preflash only.
02-25-2020, 01:50 AM   #21
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Ok, so now I'm a bit confused!

Alot of the replies talk about using RF transmitters/receivers. I was hoping I could use the Wirelesss (optical) capabilities of my Pentax AF360/540 units... I wanted to use a Pentax AF360/540 on the K-70 (the K-70 internal built in flash does not support wireless flash) to trigger the slave(s) Pentax AF360/540. Added to this, I don't want the triggering on-camera flash to contribute to the image (Control mode), and I want the slave(s) to be in manual wireless mode (Not the Pentax SL2 manual optical slave mode).

So, trying to put this in as simple way as possible...

Can I use an on camera Pentax AF360/540 configured as a Wireless Controller (in P-TTL flash mode, because that is the only mode you can use for a Wireless Controller) to trigger a Pentax AF360/540 as a WIreless Slave (in Manual mode in SL1)? (I don't want to use Pentax SL2 optical slave mode, because it just complicates things)
02-25-2020, 02:36 AM   #22
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With all this talk, which I haven't followed in detail, I find that Frank Back's succinct list would be my starting pt. Where I would differ is ever staying with optical triggering. I started this way and the limitations caused much frustration. Having moved to the Cactus triggers and their cheap flash units, I find the flexibility so much better. You can 'hide' the flashes from the controller, no line of sight light issues etc. Much simpler.

I do like the Cactus flashes. They're easy to control from the camera. Their (relative) cheapness appeals in many ways, ie I'm less precious about looking after them so I just get on and use them, propping them up in lots of precarious positions - they've fallen a few times with no harm. My 540 is now my reserve flash as I've bought more cheapy Cactus units - they don't require triggers on the flashes as it's built in. One trigger on the camera then the Cactus units just fire off as instructed from the camera trigger. Simple.

Also as Frank says, making up modifiers and flags is easy enough with foam board, foil etc. Add in theatre gels (not fancy photographic ones) to colour the light, clip on generic dome diffusers etc etc. and creative options abound ...

02-25-2020, 03:27 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by dizzyfish Quote
I was hoping I could use the Wirelesss (optical) capabilities of my Pentax AF360/540 units... I wanted to use a Pentax AF360/540 on the K-70 (the K-70 internal built in flash does not support wireless flash) to trigger the slave(s) Pentax AF360/540. Added to this, I don't want the triggering on-camera flash to contribute to the image (Control mode), and I want the slave(s) to be in manual wireless mode (Not the Pentax SL2 manual optical slave mode).
Ok......
so the flash on camera set to P-TTL WIRELESS MODE. Press the SET button and turn the dial until it reads CONTROL (not Master). Press the set button again.
the flash off-camera set to MANUAL WIRELESS mode. Press the set button and turn the dial to select your desired output 1/1 to 1/256.

Your on-camera flash will still preflash to send instructions to the slave flash but for the exposure, only the slave should fire.
02-25-2020, 05:27 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Ok......
so the flash on camera set to P-TTL WIRELESS MODE. Press the SET button and turn the dial until it reads CONTROL (not Master). Press the set button again.
the flash off-camera set to MANUAL WIRELESS mode. Press the set button and turn the dial to select your desired output 1/1 to 1/256.

Your on-camera flash will still preflash to send instructions to the slave flash but for the exposure, only the slave should fire.
Thanks... that is what I was after. I wasn’t sure this configuration worked.
02-25-2020, 05:31 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
I suspect we might think alone the same lines with this: black/white collapsible is a great choice, but for the finessing of a glow behind the subject, especially a gelled one, a mid-grey is, I think, an even better backdrop. You can take a grey to white or black easily enough and then add a gently glow as required.
Thanks. Really my first idea was to buy a grey/black one, but the (affordable) models I found were grey/blue or grey/green, and I was not sure about the green/blue colors, as I don't do video. I found finally the black/white model and yes, I though it should be a great choice to start. The grey/'another_useful_color' is in my big wish list .

I have to test the light against a mid-grey background. I really like how intense/saturated are the colors on the black one, and how quickly the color falls to black (this can or can't be suitable for a portrait), but it should be nice to have a grey background to get another mood.

Surprisingly, this black background can be turned to white easily.
02-25-2020, 12:24 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by dizzyfish Quote
I was hoping I could use the Wirelesss (optical) capabilities of my Pentax AF360/540 units... I wanted to use a Pentax AF360/540 on the K-70 (the K-70 internal built in flash does not support wireless flash) to trigger the slave(s) Pentax AF360/540.
OK...that is what you have, so that makes sense.

QuoteOriginally posted by dizzyfish Quote
Added to this, I don't want the triggering on-camera flash to contribute to the image (Control mode)
The easiest way to do this is with radio triggers, though PTTL controller will work as described in other comments above.

QuoteOriginally posted by dizzyfish Quote
and I want the slave(s) to be in manual wireless mode (Not the Pentax SL2 manual optical slave mode).
Here is the disconnect ^ ^ ^.

You have two choices for optical slave with your Pentax-brand flashes and only one choice for a non-contributing optical controller:
  1. Slave 1 (SL1) : This is PTTL wireless that allows a non-contributing controller, but is always PTTL-controlled and never manual. You can apply from - 3 to +1 EV on the slave.
  2. Slave 2 (SL2) : This is dumb slave mode and should be used with the slave in full manual. To avoid triggering on the pre-flash, the master should be in manual mode as well.
If you want option #1, you may want to set the slave to maximum -3 EV and/or move it further from the subject; from comments above, it appears the flash is too close. If option #2, you can minimize contribution from the master by setting it to 1/256 strength* and using a snoot or other mask to prevent it lighting the subject. Likewise, you apply up to eight stops (1/256) less contribution from an AF-360 FGZII slave. Note that you can use the K-70's built-in flash in manual mode as master for this case.

Remember that your major points of control are the flash intensity, distance from light to subject, aperture, and ISO. Minor points of control might be flash zoom setting, reflectors, shades (including snoot), and filters.

I hope this helps.


Steve

* 1/256 on the AF-360 FGZII and 1/32 (five stops) on the AF-360 FGZ

Last edited by stevebrot; 02-25-2020 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Getting one's facts straight
02-25-2020, 12:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Here is the disconnect ^ ^ ^.

You have two choices for optical slave with your Pentax-brand flashes and only one choice for a non-contributing optical controller:

Slave 1 (SL1) : This is PTTL wireless that allows a non-contributing controller, but is always PTTL controlled and never manual. You can apply up from - 3 to +1 EV on the slave.
Slave 2 (SL2) : This is dumb slave mode and should be used with the slave in full manual. To avoid triggering on the pre-flash, the master should be in manual mode as well.
Steve, I do not use optical triggering, but I think you are wrong here. Have a look at p29 of the AF540/360 manual.... The mode is called MANUAL WIRELESS SLAVE. P-TTL does not feature here except that the controller unit has to be in WIRELESS P-TTL CONTROLLER


ps. OP...get some radio triggers...makes it sooooo much simpler
02-25-2020, 02:15 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Steve, I do not use optical triggering, but I think you are wrong here. Have a look at p29 of the AF540/360 manual.... The mode is called MANUAL WIRELESS SLAVE. P-TTL does not feature here except that the controller unit has to be in WIRELESS P-TTL CONTROLLER


ps. OP...get some radio triggers...makes it sooooo much simpler
Unfortunately, this remains a confusing topic, with no help from Pentax or Ricoh documentation. I have copies of three of the manuals, all download from Ricoh (AF-360 FGZ, AF-540 FGZ, and AF-360/540 FGZII) and could not find "manual wireless slave" on text search on any of those. Page 29 was likewise fruitless. I just did a full survey and could not find any specific instructions for using a PTTL (Wireless) controller with a slave set to manual or auto (auto-thyristor), though I did find numerous cautions that the slave should be set to Slave 2 (SL2) to avoid misfire.

My expectations would be that Slave 2 would ignore a pre-flash to allow use as a dumb manual or auto-thyristor slave (emphasis on the latter for the first gen FGZ) in a PTTL environment. Comments on this thread indicate otherwise, saying that Slave 2 fires with the pre-flash. That said, the idea of a manual controller offering optical pulse control over a slave output is compelling. I can't say I have ever seen that solution proposed on this site.

Are you able to configure your gear to test the OP's desired usage? I would except that I am intentionally PTTL impoverished (on-board and 3rd-party only).


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 02-25-2020 at 03:32 PM.
02-25-2020, 03:53 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Comments on this thread indicate otherwise, saying that Slave 2 fires with the pre-flash.
Pentax Slave 2 (SL2) fires on reception of any flash

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That said, the idea of a manual controller offering optical pulse control over a slave output is compelling
Hence the reason for this thread ;-) Having invested in 3 dedicated Pentax AF flash units, you can imagine I don't really want to shell out for a set of RF transmitter/receivers when in theory with line of sight, the units should support this (although, I can feel myself going down that route... prepare yourselves for more questions!!)

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I can't say I have ever seen that solution proposed on this site.
Maybe because it is not that obvious. I only found this by carefully reading the manual, and I'm still not convinced it is supported (watch this space)... I suspect given the cost of dedicated Pentax flash units and the limitations on line of sight and 12m range, most people just go down the cheap RF route and cheap flashes... would probably still be cheaper than buying just the Pentax flashes.
02-25-2020, 03:59 PM - 1 Like   #30
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I will have a try tomorrow, following the advice I gave the OP. We shall see !
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