Flash fires but doesn't show on image until power reduction.

Mercifulfate · 10-01-2020, 08:30 AM

Camera in Manual mode with fixed settings at 1/60 F4.5 ISO 200

Three Cactus V6II triggers all the the latest firmware. All channels set to channel one.

One Yongnuo yn585ex speedlite

One Shanny sn600fgz speedlite

Pentax K-5

Power settings on the flashes are manually set to 1/1 then attached the the cactus V6II trigger.

I am not using TTL mode on the triggers, manual only.

The issue I am having is that when the Shanny flash is at 1/1 power on the transmitter and 1/1 power on the receiver the flash fires, as I can see it in the view finder, but the flash can not be seen on the image.

I pointed both flash at the TV with it off to act as a reflector. In the view finder I see both flashes go off but on the K-5 image I only see the light of the YN585 ... I turn the power settings to 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 and while I see the Shanny fire in the view finder it never shows on the image only the yn585 shows.

When I change one more time to 1/32 power then both flashes show on an image. They will continue to show all the way until 1/256. I go back to 1/1 power and Shanny can not be seen on the image. Just to make sure there was no error in the group selection I switched groups around.

Shanny was A and yn585 B so I made yn585 A and shanny B but same results. Any clue why I would not see flash from the Shanny until 1/32 power and nothing more higher power?

This issue does not occur when using TTL.

Thank You.

swanlefitte · 10-01-2020, 09:01 AM

What does seeing " flashes go off in the viewfinder"? The mirror is up when the shutter opens so you can't see the flashes thru the viewfinder when the picture is taken. You might see a preflash but that shouldn't be for manual setting. Sounds like it is metering are the photos twice as bright at 1/32 as from 1/64 as they should be? Would full power be way to bright?

Mercifulfate · 10-01-2020, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

What does seeing " flashes go off in the viewfinder"? The mirror is up when the shutter opens so you can't see the flashes thru the viewfinder when the picture is taken. You might see a preflash but that shouldn't be for manual setting. Sounds like it is metering are the photos twice as bright at 1/32 as from 1/64 as they should be? Would full power be way to bright?

When the shutter goes off and the flash fires yes I do see visually the flash in the view finder. The issue is only one of the two flashes can be seen on the image itself. I have fast eyes maybe? Remember I am shooting at 1/60 a second. With flash duration I should be able to see the flash of both. I do see both but only in the view finder. I do not however see it on the image only the 585 shows on the image. I have also checked this against shooting at 1/160 and the same thing happens I see the flashes in the view finder but only the 585 on the image until I drop power to 1/32.

**ProfessorBuzz** · 10-01-2020, 10:28 AM

Check for firmware updates for all the devices. Try using a different coloured gel over each flash, then you can tell for sure which one is firing, or both. It could be that the 2nd flash is firing late.

pschlute · 10-01-2020, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Mercifulfate

Three Cactus V6II triggers all the the latest firmware.

Can you detail exactly which version.

Mercifulfate · 10-01-2020, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by pschlute

Can you detail exactly which version.

Pen.A.005

---------- Post added 10-01-20 at 12:10 PM ----------

Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz

Check for firmware updates for all the devices. Try using a different coloured gel over each flash, then you can tell for sure which one is firing, or both. It could be that the 2nd flash is firing late.

There is a yellow gel on the 585 and none on the shanny during the test. This is how I knew which one was firing at what power levels.

C_Jones · 10-01-2020, 01:35 PM

Is there an S1 and/or S2 setting on the Shanny flash? If there is, you may want to check to see that it is set the same way that the other off camera flashes are. That type setting will affect whether the flash fires right away, or waits to be in sequence with a TTL configured setup.

Mercifulfate · 10-01-2020, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by C_Jones

Is there an S1 and/or S2 setting on the Shanny flash? If there is, you may want to check to see that it is set the same way that the other off camera flashes are. That type setting will affect whether the flash fires right away, or waits to be in sequence with a TTL configured setup.

Neither in is S1 or S2. I am not using optical triggers. I did not use TTL but shot it in manual mode on camera and manual on flash adjusting the flash power with the cactus V6II triggers. Both flash only fires once when the shutter is actuated.

**UncleVanya** · 10-01-2020, 01:51 PM

I don't understand seeing it in the viewfinder. The mirror should go up BEFORE the shutter opens. This blocks your view of the scene. Is there light leakage? Are you seeing the flash perhaps in peripheral vision?

P-TTL is different, but you said that's not involved. The flash should not be triggered until the shutter is open, this should keep you from seeing anything in viewfinder during the exposure. You could operate in live view on some DSLRs and possibly see flashes going off, but the duration is very short.

Mercifulfate · 10-01-2020, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I don't understand seeing it in the viewfinder. The mirror should go up BEFORE the shutter opens. This blocks your view of the scene. Is there light leakage? Are you seeing the flash perhaps in peripheral vision?

P-TTL is different, but you said that's not involved. The flash should not be triggered until the shutter is open, this should keep you from seeing anything in viewfinder during the exposure. You could operate in live view on some DSLRs and possibly see flashes going off, but the duration is very short.

So I have heard I shouldn't see it and yet I do and I get the image recorded with the camera. The Shanny flash does go off but it is not recorded on the camera unless I turn the power DOWN to 1/32 ... camera setting do not change in the experiment. The 585 flash is captured by the camera at all power settings.

swanlefitte · 10-01-2020, 02:37 PM

Try setting the flash to pttl or ttl. Perhaps the trigger needs that setting.

**UncleVanya** · 10-01-2020, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Mercifulfate

So I have heard I shouldn't see it and yet I do and I get the image recorded with the camera. The Shanny flash does go off but it is not recorded on the camera unless I turn the power DOWN to 1/32 ... camera setting do not change in the experiment. The 585 flash is captured by the camera at all power settings.

The only explanation I can think of is that some type preflash is set on he trigger on camera and the flash that isn't firing twice has a trigger setting different or that flash doesn't recover from 1/1 as fast and isn't able to fire again in time to properly expose the image.

I'd start by resetting all three triggers to default and carefully walk through each setup. If test each flash with the on camera trigger one at a time and only try both again after all of the validation tests work on each independently.

**UncleVanya** · 10-01-2020, 02:38 PM

Just to be clear, none of the flashes triggers are set to optical trigger modes are they?

pschlute · 10-01-2020, 02:40 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Mercifulfate

Pen.A.005

Have you tried using the generic firmware ?

Are you sure you are not seeing a Pre-flash "in the viewfinder" ?

---------- Post added 10-01-20 at 11:05 PM ----------

Originally posted by Mercifulfate

I did not use TTL but shot it in manual mode on camera and manual on flash adjusting the flash power with the cactus V6II triggers.

I use V6II units together with Pentax Af540 and Cactus RF60x flash units.

The Cactus transceiver on the camera works as follows when wanting to use manual control of flash output (at least with my setup and using the PEN firmware)

With the transceiver in Manual mode you need to set the flash units to P-TTL. I know this sounds counter intuitive but the transceiver uses the Pentax P-TTL protocol to send the correct power output (selected on the cactus unit on the camera) to the flash units. The process involves a redundant but visible pre-flash, followed by the main flash. The power of the main flash is dependent on the setting on the transceiver on the camera.

If you instead select manual mode on the flash units, you should get a single main flash which should be dependent only on the setting you have selected on the flash unit. The manual power setting on the transceiver should not play any part in determining the output. It simply sends a signal. However i did notice during the early days of the V6II that I would get unpredictable results in this method but only when using an older AF360 Pentax flash. It may well be you are seeing similar unpredictable results because you are using PEN firmware with no Pentax flashes, or just an unpredictable result anyway.

My suggestion is to turn the flash units to P-TTL and control the manual output with the transceiver manual controls. The only downside of this is that there will be a redundant pre-flash, which will cock things up if you are trying to use a flash meter to establish your exposure.

C_Jones · 10-02-2020, 01:19 PM

I am not sure if these factors were mentioned yet, but making sure the off camera flashes are all set in Manual mode, and that the channels are set to something other than 1 are things that may possibly help. You may want to try using channel 3 or something. With flashes I have used, the manual mentions using other than channel 1 when implementing off camera flashes in some cases.

10-01-2020, 08:30 AM	#1
Mercifulfate Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 92	Flash fires but doesn't show on image until power reduction. Camera in Manual mode with fixed settings at 1/60 F4.5 ISO 200 Three Cactus V6II triggers all the the latest firmware. All channels set to channel one. One Yongnuo yn585ex speedlite One Shanny sn600fgz speedlite Pentax K-5 Power settings on the flashes are manually set to 1/1 then attached the the cactus V6II trigger. I am not using TTL mode on the triggers, manual only. The issue I am having is that when the Shanny flash is at 1/1 power on the transmitter and 1/1 power on the receiver the flash fires, as I can see it in the view finder, but the flash can not be seen on the image. I pointed both flash at the TV with it off to act as a reflector. In the view finder I see both flashes go off but on the K-5 image I only see the light of the YN585 ... I turn the power settings to 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 and while I see the Shanny fire in the view finder it never shows on the image only the yn585 shows. When I change one more time to 1/32 power then both flashes show on an image. They will continue to show all the way until 1/256. I go back to 1/1 power and Shanny can not be seen on the image. Just to make sure there was no error in the group selection I switched groups around. Shanny was A and yn585 B so I made yn585 A and shanny B but same results. Any clue why I would not see flash from the Shanny until 1/32 power and nothing more higher power? This issue does not occur when using TTL. Thank You.

10-01-2020, 12:09 PM	#6
Mercifulfate Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 92 Original Poster	Originally posted by pschlute Can you detail exactly which version. Pen.A.005 ---------- Post added 10-01-20 at 12:10 PM ---------- Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz Check for firmware updates for all the devices. Try using a different coloured gel over each flash, then you can tell for sure which one is firing, or both. It could be that the 2nd flash is firing late. There is a yellow gel on the 585 and none on the shanny during the test. This is how I knew which one was firing at what power levels. Last edited by Mercifulfate; 10-01-2020 at 12:34 PM.

10-01-2020, 02:40 PM - 1 Like	#14
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,202	Originally posted by Mercifulfate Pen.A.005 Have you tried using the generic firmware ? Are you sure you are not seeing a Pre-flash "in the viewfinder" ? ---------- Post added 10-01-20 at 11:05 PM ---------- Originally posted by Mercifulfate I did not use TTL but shot it in manual mode on camera and manual on flash adjusting the flash power with the cactus V6II triggers. I use V6II units together with Pentax Af540 and Cactus RF60x flash units. The Cactus transceiver on the camera works as follows when wanting to use manual control of flash output (at least with my setup and using the PEN firmware) With the transceiver in Manual mode you need to set the flash units to P-TTL. I know this sounds counter intuitive but the transceiver uses the Pentax P-TTL protocol to send the correct power output (selected on the cactus unit on the camera) to the flash units. The process involves a redundant but visible pre-flash, followed by the main flash. The power of the main flash is dependent on the setting on the transceiver on the camera. If you instead select manual mode on the flash units, you should get a single main flash which should be dependent only on the setting you have selected on the flash unit. The manual power setting on the transceiver should not play any part in determining the output. It simply sends a signal. However i did notice during the early days of the V6II that I would get unpredictable results in this method but only when using an older AF360 Pentax flash. It may well be you are seeing similar unpredictable results because you are using PEN firmware with no Pentax flashes, or just an unpredictable result anyway. My suggestion is to turn the flash units to P-TTL and control the manual output with the transceiver manual controls. The only downside of this is that there will be a redundant pre-flash, which will cock things up if you are trying to use a flash meter to establish your exposure. Last edited by pschlute; 10-01-2020 at 03:10 PM.

10-02-2020, 01:19 PM	#15
C_Jones Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,088	I am not sure if these factors were mentioned yet, but making sure the off camera flashes are all set in Manual mode, and that the channels are set to something other than 1 are things that may possibly help. You may want to try using channel 3 or something. With flashes I have used, the manual mentions using other than channel 1 when implementing off camera flashes in some cases. Last edited by C_Jones; 10-02-2020 at 06:02 PM.

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10-01-2020, 09:01 AM	#2
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	What does seeing " flashes go off in the viewfinder"? The mirror is up when the shutter opens so you can't see the flashes thru the viewfinder when the picture is taken. You might see a preflash but that shouldn't be for manual setting. Sounds like it is metering are the photos twice as bright at 1/32 as from 1/64 as they should be? Would full power be way to bright?

10-01-2020, 10:13 AM	#3
Mercifulfate Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 92 Original Poster	Originally posted by swanlefitte What does seeing " flashes go off in the viewfinder"? The mirror is up when the shutter opens so you can't see the flashes thru the viewfinder when the picture is taken. You might see a preflash but that shouldn't be for manual setting. Sounds like it is metering are the photos twice as bright at 1/32 as from 1/64 as they should be? Would full power be way to bright? When the shutter goes off and the flash fires yes I do see visually the flash in the view finder. The issue is only one of the two flashes can be seen on the image itself. I have fast eyes maybe? Remember I am shooting at 1/60 a second. With flash duration I should be able to see the flash of both. I do see both but only in the view finder. I do not however see it on the image only the 585 shows on the image. I have also checked this against shooting at 1/160 and the same thing happens I see the flashes in the view finder but only the 585 on the image until I drop power to 1/32.

10-01-2020, 10:28 AM	#4
ProfessorBuzz Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 1,903	Check for firmware updates for all the devices. Try using a different coloured gel over each flash, then you can tell for sure which one is firing, or both. It could be that the 2nd flash is firing late.

10-01-2020, 11:45 AM	#5
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,202	Originally posted by Mercifulfate Three Cactus V6II triggers all the the latest firmware. Can you detail exactly which version.

10-01-2020, 01:35 PM	#7
C_Jones Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,088	Is there an S1 and/or S2 setting on the Shanny flash? If there is, you may want to check to see that it is set the same way that the other off camera flashes are. That type setting will affect whether the flash fires right away, or waits to be in sequence with a TTL configured setup.

10-01-2020, 01:49 PM	#8
Mercifulfate Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 92 Original Poster	Originally posted by C_Jones Is there an S1 and/or S2 setting on the Shanny flash? If there is, you may want to check to see that it is set the same way that the other off camera flashes are. That type setting will affect whether the flash fires right away, or waits to be in sequence with a TTL configured setup. Neither in is S1 or S2. I am not using optical triggers. I did not use TTL but shot it in manual mode on camera and manual on flash adjusting the flash power with the cactus V6II triggers. Both flash only fires once when the shutter is actuated.

10-01-2020, 01:51 PM	#9
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,409	I don't understand seeing it in the viewfinder. The mirror should go up BEFORE the shutter opens. This blocks your view of the scene. Is there light leakage? Are you seeing the flash perhaps in peripheral vision? P-TTL is different, but you said that's not involved. The flash should not be triggered until the shutter is open, this should keep you from seeing anything in viewfinder during the exposure. You could operate in live view on some DSLRs and possibly see flashes going off, but the duration is very short.

10-01-2020, 02:08 PM	#10
Mercifulfate Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 92 Original Poster	Originally posted by UncleVanya I don't understand seeing it in the viewfinder. The mirror should go up BEFORE the shutter opens. This blocks your view of the scene. Is there light leakage? Are you seeing the flash perhaps in peripheral vision? P-TTL is different, but you said that's not involved. The flash should not be triggered until the shutter is open, this should keep you from seeing anything in viewfinder during the exposure. You could operate in live view on some DSLRs and possibly see flashes going off, but the duration is very short. So I have heard I shouldn't see it and yet I do and I get the image recorded with the camera. The Shanny flash does go off but it is not recorded on the camera unless I turn the power DOWN to 1/32 ... camera setting do not change in the experiment. The 585 flash is captured by the camera at all power settings.

10-01-2020, 02:37 PM	#11
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	Try setting the flash to pttl or ttl. Perhaps the trigger needs that setting.

10-01-2020, 02:37 PM	#12
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,409	Originally posted by Mercifulfate So I have heard I shouldn't see it and yet I do and I get the image recorded with the camera. The Shanny flash does go off but it is not recorded on the camera unless I turn the power DOWN to 1/32 ... camera setting do not change in the experiment. The 585 flash is captured by the camera at all power settings. The only explanation I can think of is that some type preflash is set on he trigger on camera and the flash that isn't firing twice has a trigger setting different or that flash doesn't recover from 1/1 as fast and isn't able to fire again in time to properly expose the image. I'd start by resetting all three triggers to default and carefully walk through each setup. If test each flash with the on camera trigger one at a time and only try both again after all of the validation tests work on each independently.

10-01-2020, 02:38 PM	#13
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,409	Just to be clear, none of the flashes triggers are set to optical trigger modes are they?