Small Flashes for K20D/FAQ me?

Ratmagiclady · 11-30-2008, 04:28 PM

Hi, there. I'm planning my K20d system, and as regards flash units, my dinosaureyness is showing. (I've just never had a camera where there was any point to anything much fancier than a 285,

)

So, I'd appreciate any help getting my bearings with what's out there for what, compatibilities and compromises, etc.

Much elucidation follows:

It looks to me that between Pentax and Metz, there's some current full-service big units to pick from when it comes to shelling out for something like that. (Though any bargains here could be useful.)

With anything, the fancies I'm most interested in are TTL metering and AF assist, preferably of the beam type.

(In general, I'm wondering how much backwards or forward compatibility there may be between things that might have been made for older Pentax models, this could come in handy later or make a nice Ebay score or something.)

Firstly, though, I'm somewhat interested in a smaller unit... Power's not a priority: enough to handle a nice amount of diffusion at a bit better than pop-up flash ranges would suffice. (I'll probably start by seeing what I get putting one of those little diffusers on the popup flash, actually. Something fairly thin and blazer-pocket-sized would be sweet: something about the size of a non-bouncey kit flash from the 80s would be fine. (Actually it's this sort of thing that makes me think just maybe there's something with a focus assist lamp and TTL that might just be compatible,)

Which.. leads me to wonder what you get with the current smallest flash Pentax makes. Obviously few bells and whistles, no lamps to avoid obtrusive pre-flashes with... question being what *do* you get.

Secondary question: if you have the mid-sized current Pentax unit, can you use the pop up flash for fill while bounce-carding the flash unit or whatever? That might be useful enough to me to justify the size.

Thanks in advance, ...if there's a FAQ on this sort of thing, it'd probably be handy.

mattdm · 11-30-2008, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by me:

Well, the AF200FG should fit that bill. No tilt head, though, and no wireless P-TTL control.

Doh! Too much information rattling around in my brain right now. The AF200FG is also lacking a focus assist beam. (It's right on my site, just wrong in my comment above.)

I'm really curious to see when the Metz 36 AF-4 hits the US in Pentax mount, and at what price. It seems like the answer to many of these questions.

On amazon.de, it goes for €76.90 vs. €124.30 for the Pentax AF200FG.

Ratmagiclady · 12-01-2008, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by mattdm

Well, the AF200FG should fit that bill. No tilt head, though, and no wireless P-TTL control.

So.... visit this site in my sig.

Sweet.

Useful site.

I'm trying to fuss with measurements: if those represent how the thing stands within a cube, at least, that 200FG seems rather too big and blocky to consider for a compact. Since there's no Pentax-carrying retail around here, I suppose I should hunt for pictures of the thing next to something of familiar size.

Anyone happen to know how thick/deep the 360 is with the head tilted up all the way? From the looks of things, it might just fit in the same spaces as the smaller unit will that way. (By this I mean that it could slip into a tall and narrowish space as easily)

As backwards compatibilities go, ...I don't see much about this: would some older unit provide any non-TTL features like an AF lamp (I'd *really* prefer to avoid any visible preflashes under a lot of circumstances) while functioning like a good old 'auto' flash?

It's starting to look like I may as well cheap out and do what I always do for a compact, and maybe save the fancy for when I go big, though any convenience I can add to the situation is nice. Thanks.

bdery · 12-01-2008, 11:48 AM

Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount.

One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now.

Just my three cents.

alohadave · 12-01-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by bdery

Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount.

One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now.

Just my three cents.

Sunpak is another good brand that you can get for cheap. I just picked up one on eBay for $.99, full tilt and swivel head with manual power levels and three auto thyristor modes.

Ratmagiclady · 12-01-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by bdery

Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount.

One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now.

Just my three cents.

Swivel's nice, admittedly, though as an old 285 user, you get used to it. Big unit will have swivel, if I spend any amount of money on it, so no worries, there.

My cheaping-out interests might be more along the lines of is there an entry-level pocket-sized flash out there for older Pentaxes with the AF illuminator on it and a sensor for auto flash. Apparently, the K20d pretty much gives you P-TTL, or no TTL at all, that much the site we were just shown says.

Basically, like a Canon 277T, (Not sure the illuminator on that serves for AF, but you might get the picture) or some little thing like that for walking around town with and being able to pull out if I start hitting a pub or something. (See why I'm not so big on the obtrusive pre-flash thing? Tends to disrupt the subjects)

Pretty informal stuff, mostly just for knocking around with, not trying to light up the whole space: I can improvise ways to knock the harshness down with some diffusion. For occasions where I want to get fancy or start bouncing big power around, there's only so much to expect from a smaller unit, but I just don't usually run around geared up that way. The smaller it is, the more likely it is to actually be present with me. I would, however, be nervous about putting a crapola third-party thingie (an old school logical solution) from who's sure when on a K20, for fear of frying the camera. And I like the focusing help.

Ratmagiclady · 12-01-2008, 02:00 PM

(BTW: I'm actually pretty sure what I *want,* it's just about what I can have for what money in what combinations: there's always compromises. Kind of an analysis there about what can be had along the cost/size/capabilities curve. The more I have to spend or carry, the more I want it to do. Past a point, I may as well just get a big unit, though.

Steinback · 12-02-2008, 09:27 PM

In terms of a small flash I think your best bet would be an older manual flash with a low sync voltage, finding something cheap shouldn't be a problem. I would certainly be in the market for a flash like what you are describing (pocket sized, pttl, focus assist, and preferably a bounce head for my purposes) but I am not aware of any on the market. Eventually I'll probably compromise on an AF-360 but I'm not in any hurry to replace my Vivitar 285s at the moment even though p-ttl would be nice to have with a couple of my lenses.

**Lowell Goudge** · 12-03-2008, 03:26 AM

I didn't see anyone correct you on this post, but the K20D does not support TTL.

The K20D only supports P-TTL which uses pre - flash to meter the light, and then fires a full power (or what ever it determines necessary) burst when the shutter is open.

This is OK if the flash you have/are looking at supports P-TTL, and if you use only lenses with an A setting, but not if your flash only supports TTL, or if you use manual apature lenses.

The difference internally to the camera for TTL and P-TTL is the following.

For TTL the camera needs an additional sensor, which reads light reflected directly off the focusing plane (film in the old days, the sensor on a DSLR).

For P-TTL the camera uses the same sensor that is used for normal metering, which is why it requires a pre-flash, that is the metering phase.

The only Pentax DSLRs which support true TTL are the *istD, which supports it both for internal and external flash, and the *istDS whcih supports it for external flash only.

If you want a flash to use with both new and legacy glass, you need one with an "Auto' mode and built in flash sensor of it's own. For pentax that means the AF540FGZ which is about a 3 inch cube (roughly) when mounted on the camera.

mattdm · 12-03-2008, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

The only Pentax DSLRs which support true TTL [...]

I know this is a little pedantic, but P-TTL is, literally speaking, "true" TTL as well, since the preflash is measured through the lens. The thing called just plain "TTL" is maybe better referred to as "old-style TTL" when there's a need to distinguish.

(And I don't mean to imply that the distinction you raise is unimportant, because it is.)

Ratmagiclady · 12-03-2008, 06:26 AM

Yeah, Matt's link there explained the P-ttl system, ...understandably there's limited options, there.

So, no one knows of a pre-pTTL compact unit or otherwise with an auto mode? And would such a unit have a compatible focus assist lamp? (Among other concerns, I'd like to hedge a bit in case my health requires taking my film work to autofocus somewhere down the road, that could mean a PZ-1P or *ist or maybe if I'm lucky, an mz-s. )

As for lenses, well, where practicable, I'm going for as many with an aperture ring and an A-setting as I can. I'm starting with the FA 50/1.4, just cause I can't go without my fast short tele, and I want to see what this K20d can do.

Next, probably, a designed-for-digital zoom: possibly after scraping up some bargains for stopgaps. hopefully the prices will stay low, there.

11-30-2008, 04:28 PM	#1
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Small Flashes for K20D/FAQ me? Hi, there. I'm planning my K20d system, and as regards flash units, my dinosaureyness is showing. (I've just never had a camera where there was any point to anything much fancier than a 285, ) So, I'd appreciate any help getting my bearings with what's out there for what, compatibilities and compromises, etc. Much elucidation follows: It looks to me that between Pentax and Metz, there's some current full-service big units to pick from when it comes to shelling out for something like that. (Though any bargains here could be useful.) With anything, the fancies I'm most interested in are TTL metering and AF assist, preferably of the beam type. (In general, I'm wondering how much backwards or forward compatibility there may be between things that might have been made for older Pentax models, this could come in handy later or make a nice Ebay score or something.) Firstly, though, I'm somewhat interested in a smaller unit... Power's not a priority: enough to handle a nice amount of diffusion at a bit better than pop-up flash ranges would suffice. (I'll probably start by seeing what I get putting one of those little diffusers on the popup flash, actually. Something fairly thin and blazer-pocket-sized would be sweet: something about the size of a non-bouncey kit flash from the 80s would be fine. (Actually it's this sort of thing that makes me think just maybe there's something with a focus assist lamp and TTL that might just be compatible,) Which.. leads me to wonder what you get with the current smallest flash Pentax makes. Obviously few bells and whistles, no lamps to avoid obtrusive pre-flashes with... question being what do you get. Secondary question: if you have the mid-sized current Pentax unit, can you use the pop up flash for fill while bounce-carding the flash unit or whatever? That might be useful enough to me to justify the size. Thanks in advance, ...if there's a FAQ on this sort of thing, it'd probably be handy.

11-30-2008, 11:33 PM	#2
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by me: Well, the AF200FG should fit that bill. No tilt head, though, and no wireless P-TTL control. Doh! Too much information rattling around in my brain right now. The AF200FG is also lacking a focus assist beam. (It's right on my site, just wrong in my comment above.) I'm really curious to see when the Metz 36 AF-4 hits the US in Pentax mount, and at what price. It seems like the answer to many of these questions. On amazon.de, it goes for €76.90 vs. €124.30 for the Pentax AF200FG. Last edited by mattdm; 12-01-2008 at 10:42 PM.

12-01-2008, 11:08 AM	#3
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563 Original Poster	Originally posted by mattdm Well, the AF200FG should fit that bill. No tilt head, though, and no wireless P-TTL control. So.... visit this site in my sig. Sweet. Useful site. I'm trying to fuss with measurements: if those represent how the thing stands within a cube, at least, that 200FG seems rather too big and blocky to consider for a compact. Since there's no Pentax-carrying retail around here, I suppose I should hunt for pictures of the thing next to something of familiar size. Anyone happen to know how thick/deep the 360 is with the head tilted up all the way? From the looks of things, it might just fit in the same spaces as the smaller unit will that way. (By this I mean that it could slip into a tall and narrowish space as easily) As backwards compatibilities go, ...I don't see much about this: would some older unit provide any non-TTL features like an AF lamp (I'd really prefer to avoid any visible preflashes under a lot of circumstances) while functioning like a good old 'auto' flash? It's starting to look like I may as well cheap out and do what I always do for a compact, and maybe save the fancy for when I go big, though any convenience I can add to the situation is nice. Thanks. Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-01-2008 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Couple more thoughts.

12-01-2008, 01:40 PM	#6
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563 Original Poster	Originally posted by bdery Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount. One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now. Just my three cents. Swivel's nice, admittedly, though as an old 285 user, you get used to it. Big unit will have swivel, if I spend any amount of money on it, so no worries, there. My cheaping-out interests might be more along the lines of is there an entry-level pocket-sized flash out there for older Pentaxes with the AF illuminator on it and a sensor for auto flash. Apparently, the K20d pretty much gives you P-TTL, or no TTL at all, that much the site we were just shown says. Basically, like a Canon 277T, (Not sure the illuminator on that serves for AF, but you might get the picture) or some little thing like that for walking around town with and being able to pull out if I start hitting a pub or something. (See why I'm not so big on the obtrusive pre-flash thing? Tends to disrupt the subjects) Pretty informal stuff, mostly just for knocking around with, not trying to light up the whole space: I can improvise ways to knock the harshness down with some diffusion. For occasions where I want to get fancy or start bouncing big power around, there's only so much to expect from a smaller unit, but I just don't usually run around geared up that way. The smaller it is, the more likely it is to actually be present with me. I would, however, be nervous about putting a crapola third-party thingie (an old school logical solution) from who's sure when on a K20, for fear of frying the camera. And I like the focusing help. Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-01-2008 at 01:48 PM.

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12-01-2008, 11:48 AM	#4
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount. One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now. Just my three cents.

12-01-2008, 01:03 PM	#5
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by bdery Just a thought... if you plan on experimenting with a "cheap" flash before buying something advanced when you know what you want, you could consider an older Auto-thyristor flash (these flashes are often TTL, NOT PTTL, but have auto modes that are quite reliable). for instance, I'm using an old Pentax AF280T with swiveling head. You could also look at the cheap PTTL flashes on eBay like the Sakar and Digital Concept. This could let you see what you like and don'T like without shelling a huge amount. One thing you'll be missing out, I think, if you buy the cheaper new flashes, is the swiveling head. I think you are right to want more power and an AF assist (even though my flash doesn't have it) but a swivel head is what makes an external flash really useful, IMHO. I never noticed the harsh lighting a direct flash created before I started to bounce my flash off walls and cielings. It makes a HUGE difference, and I could not live without it now. Just my three cents. Sunpak is another good brand that you can get for cheap. I just picked up one on eBay for $.99, full tilt and swivel head with manual power levels and three auto thyristor modes.

12-01-2008, 02:00 PM	#7
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563 Original Poster	(BTW: I'm actually pretty sure what I want, it's just about what I can have for what money in what combinations: there's always compromises. Kind of an analysis there about what can be had along the cost/size/capabilities curve. The more I have to spend or carry, the more I want it to do. Past a point, I may as well just get a big unit, though.

12-02-2008, 09:27 PM	#8
Steinback Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: GTA, ON, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,673	In terms of a small flash I think your best bet would be an older manual flash with a low sync voltage, finding something cheap shouldn't be a problem. I would certainly be in the market for a flash like what you are describing (pocket sized, pttl, focus assist, and preferably a bounce head for my purposes) but I am not aware of any on the market. Eventually I'll probably compromise on an AF-360 but I'm not in any hurry to replace my Vivitar 285s at the moment even though p-ttl would be nice to have with a couple of my lenses.

12-03-2008, 03:26 AM	#9
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,887	I didn't see anyone correct you on this post, but the K20D does not support TTL. The K20D only supports P-TTL which uses pre - flash to meter the light, and then fires a full power (or what ever it determines necessary) burst when the shutter is open. This is OK if the flash you have/are looking at supports P-TTL, and if you use only lenses with an A setting, but not if your flash only supports TTL, or if you use manual apature lenses. The difference internally to the camera for TTL and P-TTL is the following. For TTL the camera needs an additional sensor, which reads light reflected directly off the focusing plane (film in the old days, the sensor on a DSLR). For P-TTL the camera uses the same sensor that is used for normal metering, which is why it requires a pre-flash, that is the metering phase. The only Pentax DSLRs which support true TTL are the istD, which supports it both for internal and external flash, and the istDS whcih supports it for external flash only. If you want a flash to use with both new and legacy glass, you need one with an "Auto' mode and built in flash sensor of it's own. For pentax that means the AF540FGZ which is about a 3 inch cube (roughly) when mounted on the camera.

12-03-2008, 05:42 AM	#10
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge The only Pentax DSLRs which support true TTL [...] I know this is a little pedantic, but P-TTL is, literally speaking, "true" TTL as well, since the preflash is measured through the lens. The thing called just plain "TTL" is maybe better referred to as "old-style TTL" when there's a need to distinguish. (And I don't mean to imply that the distinction you raise is unimportant, because it is.)

12-03-2008, 06:26 AM	#11
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563 Original Poster	Yeah, Matt's link there explained the P-ttl system, ...understandably there's limited options, there. So, no one knows of a pre-pTTL compact unit or otherwise with an auto mode? And would such a unit have a compatible focus assist lamp? (Among other concerns, I'd like to hedge a bit in case my health requires taking my film work to autofocus somewhere down the road, that could mean a PZ-1P or *ist or maybe if I'm lucky, an mz-s. ) As for lenses, well, where practicable, I'm going for as many with an aperture ring and an A-setting as I can. I'm starting with the FA 50/1.4, just cause I can't go without my fast short tele, and I want to see what this K20d can do. Next, probably, a designed-for-digital zoom: possibly after scraping up some bargains for stopgaps. hopefully the prices will stay low, there.