[PocketPixels]

Nearly all of my professional work is product photography, where nothing moves, most things sit still in a light box, and I can re-shoot anything that doesn't look great. I use an old Pentax AF 140C ring flash on the (rare) occasions when I need more light.

I rarely use flash at all, and for years I thought "P-TTL" and "TTL" were the same thing, roughly translating as "The flash will talk to your camera and lens, and it will respond as well or better than your on-camera flash will as lighting and zoom changes." Anyone who has ever connected a 1990s AF 140C ring to a 2017 K-S2 knows that's not true.

So, is the FlashPoint mini zoom P-TTL? It doesn't say so anywhere on the device or in the manual. Yet the manual specifies that it has been tested and developed for the K-S2, K-70, K-1, and K-1 mkii cameras. None of these cameras are TTL; they are all P-TTL. Anybody know how well I can control this from my camera? Or, broadly, what test shots I should make to learn the ropes on this new equipment before i go use it on a shoot?

I'll be at my cousin's much-delayed wedding reception next weekend, and I'll be the only "serious" photographer there. (She spent her photo budget on the actual wedding, which was limited to only a few guests due to coronavirus concerns.) I have a FlashPoint Zoom Mini-Flash, which I believe is very similar to a GoDox Flash. I am NOT the hired photographer; I am not going to get sued or drummed out of the family if my photos of this event are too dark. (Actually, if the flash doesn't work well, I'll switch to available light and motion-blur dance shots.)

My gear is listed in my signature (at least if you read this on a computer). I plan to bring my K-S2, 21mm Limited, 70mm Limited, 10–17mm fisheye, and my Helios 44 55mm f/2 (which I may use only for tripod posed photos against the harbor lights, as it is a very fussy lens.) The fisheye is too wide for any flash, and the Helios is a novelty lens, so mostly I'll be using the 21mm and 70mm for my flash shots.

[Des]

So, is the FlashPoint mini zoom P-TTL?

Assuming you have the Pentax version, yes. It's a rebadged Godox TT350P. (The Flashpoint version has more customer support than Godox does.)

Yet the manual specifies that it has been tested and developed for the K-S2, K-70, K-1, and K-1 mkii cameras. None of these cameras are TTL; they are all P-TTL.

Godox uses TTL and branded TTL such as PTTL interchangeably. They aren't referring to older TTL.

Members here can attest that PTTL with this unit works fine with other Pentax DSLRs, including the K-5 series, K-3 series and KP.

Anybody know how well I can control this from my camera?

On-camera, just set the parameters on the flash and shoot.

Off-camera, it can be controlled, in Manual or PTTL mode, by another Godox/Flashpoint PTTL flash with R2 radio capability (such as another TT350P or a Pentax version of the Godox V1) or by a Godox/Flashpoint R2 trigger, such as these::
https://www.adorama.com/fprrr2tpii.html?
https://www.adorama.com/fprrr2propii.html?
They are fine for my undemanding requirements. Others who use them for pro work might have more to contribute. You might also want to look at the threads about the Godox triggers.

Incidentally I see that the Pentax version of the Flashpoint Mini Zoom (TT350P) flash is on sale at Adorama for $49: https://www.adorama.com/fplfsmminip.html? That's a great bargain.

[PocketPixels]

Update with perhaps a more-specific question:

Say I'm in Aperture-Priority mode, say ISO 400, f/4 with my 70mm Limited, the FlashPoint flash on in "TTL" mode and pointed 45° at the ceiling.I take a photograph. Camera (and flash?) decide on 1/120s. I think the picture is too dark. I want my next shot to be a full 1EV brighter.

If I dial in +1 EV on my K-S2 and take that same shot, what happens?

(If I'm not using flash, I think I know what happens: My K-S2 drops to 1/60s to give me a full stop more light while respecting the f/4 I've selected in Av mode.)

[stevebrot]

If I dial in +1 EV on my K-S2 and take that same shot, what happens?

I am pretty sure the adjustment is made on the flash. Edit: I tested and setting the EV on the camera works great when the flash is in TTL mode \EditThe TT350P emulates a Pentax flash quite nicely, but does not support the full feature set of PTTL nor necessarily in the same way. You might be interested in my "noobs" review and reader's comments from a few months back.

Godox TT350P | Noob's first month's impressions and observations - PentaxForums.com

In the review, I note the general tendency towards underexposure (~1.5EV), but did not mention whether you set the compensation on the camera or flash. I will check on my copy and get back to you.


Steve

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Last edited by stevebrot; 11-07-2021 at 11:30 PM.

[PocketPixels]

I am pretty sure the adjustment is made on the flash. The TT350P emulates a Pentax flash to a certain extent, but does not support the full feature set of PTTL in the same way. You might be interested in my "noobs" review from a few months back.

Godox TT350P | Noob's first month's impressions and observations - PentaxForums.com

In the review, I note the general tendency towards underexposure (~1.5EV), but did not mention whether you set the compensation on the camera or flash. I will check on my copy and get back to you.

Steve

Thanks! I read your review of the Godox flash and linked to it in my original post. You might not have noticed, because the forum software often creates hyperlinks based solely on product names. But I did read it, and found it helpful and engaging.

I have a FlashPoint Zoom Mini-Flash, which I believe is very similar to a GoDox Flash.

---------- Post added 11-07-2021 at 07:44 PM ----------

Assuming you have the Pentax version, yes. It's a rebadged Godox TT350P. (The Flashpoint version has more customer support than Godox does.)

Godox uses TTL and branded TTL such as PTTL interchangeably. They aren't referring to older TTL.

That is blowing my mind. During my struggles with my 1990s Pentax AF-140C ring flash, I slowly learned that "TTL" means the camera measures the flash light that is entering the lens during the exposure, and then cuts off the flash when it senses the film (it was film in the 90s) was properly exposed. Sort of like watching the waiter grind pepper over your salad and saying "Okay, that's enough." And P-TTL means (meant?) that the camera fired a halfhearted flash just before the shutter opened, gauged how that light came into the lens and internal meter, and from that calculated the effect of firing the flash full-power, which it would then do. Spending my day as I do photographing water filters and pipe nozzles, either method would be okay, but I understand that insect photographers (and insects themselves) have some misgivings about preflashes from newer P-TTL ring flashes.

The idea that TTL and PTTL once meant different flash metering technologies, but now do refer colloquially to the same thing, has my head spinning a bit. Flash always confuses me. I get aperture/shutter/ISO no problem, but flash always makes me feel dumb.

On-camera, just set the parameters on the flash and shoot.

I had to read your sentence a few times before I realized what you were saying. I kept thinking you meant "use your on-camera controls to set parameters on the flash," but now I realize you mean "when the flash is mounted on your hot shoe, use the controls on the flash to set things how you want them." And I think that's what I was really asking, very clumsily. I was really asking "Since this is a Pentax-compatible flash, can I put the flash in some kind of auto mode, then work all the settings directly through the Pentax buttons and menus I know and love? Or must I set the camera with camera buttons and set the flash with flash buttons?" And the answer, I'm finally getting it now, is "No, even on a Pentax-compatible flash, you must use the buttons and menus on the flash itself."

Thank you, everybody. I'll set up some experiments to take practice shots before the wedding reception.

[Wingincamera]

I have the Flashpoint TT350P and it works great with the KP. It is light and easy to carry around in my bag. It is full PTTL. I also have the Flashpoint Zoom Li-on X R2 TTL Round Flash Speedlight For Pentax (Godox (V1) and the Flashpoint R2 Pro II Wireless Trigger for Pentax. The TT350P is not very powerful, so it does have limitations as to distance. I like the trigger so I can keep the flash off of the camera. You could just buy two TT350P'S and use one for the trigger.
One thing about the Flashpoint version of these Godox flashes is their customer service. I had trouble setting up the flash to work with the trigger and a quick call to Adorama customer service and they walked me through it.

[stevebrot]

If I dial in +1 EV on my K-S2 and take that same shot, what happens?

Just tested...

The +1 EV on the camera will apply to the flash exposure when the flash is in TTL mode. The on-camera 1+ EV should not do anything if the flash is in M mode.


Steve

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Last edited by stevebrot; 11-07-2021 at 11:10 PM.

[Des]

I had to read your sentence a few times before I realized what you were saying. I kept thinking you meant "use your on-camera controls to set parameters on the flash," but now I realize you mean "when the flash is mounted on your hot shoe, use the controls on the flash to set things how you want them."

Yes that's what I meant. If you set the flash to PTTL, dial in your preferred exposure compensation (if any), set the zoom for the flash head (can be auto) and shoot.

Flash exposure compensation (FEC) in the camera (that is, the settings when you press the flash symbol on the four-way controller) does affect flash output with the TT350P mounted on camera.

They should be cumulative, or cancel one another out. So if you have FEC set at -1EV and the flash itself set at -1EV, the output should be -2 EV. If you have the flash at +1EV and FEC at -1EV, the output should be 0EV.

Tthe range of adjustments with FEC is limited and it's generally better to do the adjustments in one place, so I just have FEC set at 0EV and adjust the output with the flash.

I think that's what I was really asking, very clumsily. I was really asking "Since this is a Pentax-compatible flash, can I put the flash in some kind of auto mode, then work all the settings directly through the Pentax buttons and menus I know and love? Or must I set the camera with camera buttons and set the flash with flash buttons?" And the answer, I'm finally getting it now, is "No, even on a Pentax-compatible flash, you must use the buttons and menus on the flash itself."

Well if you put the flash in PTTL mode, and leave exposure compensation at 0, the exposure will be based on the camera's metering and the settings in the camera (shutter, aperture, ISO, set according to the camera mode, and FEC)..

[stevebrot]

Flash exposure compensation (FEC) in the camera (that is, the settings when you press the flash symbol on the four-way controller) does affect flash output with the TT350P mounted on camera.

They should be cumulative, or cancel one another out. So if you have FEC set at -1EV and the flash itself set at -1EV, the output should be -2 EV. If you have the flash at +1EV and FEC at -1EV, the output should be 0EV.

Are we talking about the same flash (TT350P)? The TT350P does not offer on-board exposure compensation, regardless of mode (M or TTL) for on-camera use. In TTL mode the camera's EV comp (+/- button) will bias the flash exposure the same as if a Pentax-brand flash were mounted.

(presently have my TT350P in-hand and on my K-3)

On the K-S2, the four-way controller flash settings only control the built-in flash.


Steve

[Des]

The TT350P does not offer on-board exposure compensation, regardless of mode (M or TTL) for on-camera use.

I'm talking about flash exposure compensation in the TT350P in PTTL Steve. From the manual, p.33

It does work. I have used it often. To double check I just tested it on the K-S2, with the camera in M mode, flash in PTTL and the only parameter changed between shots being FEC on the flash. Exposure (ie flash output) adjusted as expected.

On the K-S2, the four-way controller flash settings only control the built-in flash.

I thought so too. I thought I had read it in Yvon Bourque's ebook, but when I looked I couldn't find it. Anyway I tried it - again using the camera in M mode, flash in PTTL and the only change being FEC in the flash or FEC in the camera. It does affect exposure in the way I described - that is, FEC in the camera and FEC in the flash work at the same time.

Perhaps what I had half-remembered was that the manual adjustment of flash output in the camera (ie "Manual flash discharge", adjustable from 1/1 to 1/128) only controls the popup flash. I just tested that too and it doesn't affect the output from the TT350P, whatever mode it is set to.

[PocketPixels]

Are we talking about the same flash (TT350P)? The TT350P does not offer on-board exposure compensation, regardless of mode (M or TTL) for on-camera use. In TTL mode the camera's EV comp (+/- button) will bias the flash exposure the same as if a Pentax-brand flash were mounted.

(presently have my TT350P in-hand and on my K-3)

On the K-S2, the four-way controller flash settings only control the built-in flash.


Steve

So…
• I'm in Av mode, with no flash attached, and my exposure is ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s. If I adjust EV on my camera (not FEC) by -1, the camera will change the exposure from ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s to ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/60s. Right?
• I'm in Av mode, with the FlashPoint Mini Zoom attached in TTL mode, and my exposure is ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s. If I adjust EV on my camera (not FEC) by -1, the camera exposure will stay at ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s, but the flash will reduce its output by 50%. Right?

Also, just want to take this moment to vent that Pentax positioned the K-S2 as a midrange/enthusiast model, yet it does not support wireless flash. My K200D, also a midrange/enthusiast model, does support wireless flash.

[stevebrot]

It does work. I have used it often. To double check I just tested it on the K-S2, with the camera in M mode, flash in PTTL and the only parameter changed between shots being FEC on the flash. Exposure (ie flash output) adjusted as expected.

This is a feature that I had never tried out (obviously!) and had some trouble doing so with my TT350P this afternoon until I figured out how to turn off wireless. On-camera TTL would work with wireless turned on, but not the FEC and probably a few other things. Learning how to turn off the wireless was a minor adventure, but worth the effort. Now, things work as you describe. Thanks for being a good reason to figure all this stuff out. Sorry for the confusion.

I thought so too. I thought I had read it in Yvon Bourque's ebook, but when I looked I couldn't find it. Anyway I tried it - again using the camera in M mode, flash in PTTL and the only change being FEC in the flash or FEC in the camera. It does affect exposure in the way I described - that is, FEC in the camera and FEC in the flash work at the same time.

I will have to see how it works with the TT350P FEC, but with regular P-TTL flash on my K-3, the 4-way controller flash settings are only apply to the popup flash. Things may be different on the K-S2, however.


Steve

[stevebrot]

• I'm in Av mode, with the FlashPoint Mini Zoom attached in TTL mode, and my exposure is ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s. If I adjust EV on my camera (not FEC) by -1, the camera exposure will stay at ISO 400, f/2.8, 1/120s, but the flash will reduce its output by 50%. Right?

With the flash ready on my K-3 in Av mode, the TT350P overrides the previous metered setting while also allowing "slow flash". This is the same behavior as a Pentax-brand flash. As you noticed before, applying EV comp (+/- button) while using P-TTL flash will apply that comp to the flash exposure.

Also, just want to take this moment to vent that Pentax positioned the K-S2 as a midrange/enthusiast model, yet it does not support wireless flash. My K200D, also a midrange/enthusiast model, does support wireless flash.

There is actually a thread on this site called something like "Who misses the K200D?". In many ways it was an anomaly, sort of a K10D "lite" version with the K-m/K2000 that followed being very close to the K10D itself. The K-x was another animal entirely and midrange models from that point forward lost master/controller wireless.

Look on the bright side! You may have given up optical wireless P-TTL with your K-S2, but you gained live view, flippy screen, etc., etc., etc. It's a very cool camera.


Steve

[Des]

The K-x was another animal entirely and midrange models from that point forward lost master/controller wireless.

I seem to remember it was there on my K-30. ??? [But I don't trust my memory about anything much now.]

You may have given up optical wireless P-TTL with your K-S2, but you gained live view, flippy screen, etc., etc., etc. It's a very cool camera.

Amen. And I prefer radio flash control with the Godox system to optical control.

[stevebrot]

I seem to remember it was there on my K-30. ??? [But I don't trust my memory about anything much now.]

Me neither, but you are correct, the feature returned on the K-r. The strange part is that I have plenty of history with the K-50 and never picked up on its flash features.

Amen. And I prefer radio flash control with the Godox system to optical control.

Me too. It is a great system.


Steve