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**JimJohnson** · 06-20-2012, 06:40 PM

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Okay. If my explanation about how P-TTL works isn't helping, try watching this 9+ minute video:

You Tube

And without knowing what your flash extender/diffuser looks like when mounted to your AF360, then yes it is very possible that any light from this flash will shoot right over the top of any close focus subject. It is the same problem rangefinder cameras have with seeing the subject in the viewfinder when the subject is too close - parallax. This is also why many macro photographers use ring lights. The light output is right next to the lens and aimed almost directly at the subject.

photolady95 · 06-20-2012, 07:30 PM

Do not have speakers. I will see if I can find my headphones tomorrow.

steve1307 · 06-20-2012, 07:56 PM

Broken ?.... maybe it's the connection to the hot shoe. (ie a connection in the base of the unit). You said it test fires with the button so the flash head itself is OK.

Has it ever worked on camera? at all ?

There's 5 contacts including the ground. The big centre one is the one that fires the flash. I don't know how its effected if the other pins arent contacting. Maybe it loses the P-TTL function or it wont fire in P-TTL but works in manual, maybe not at all. You can use the AF360 on older cameras with only the centre terminal for triggering and the ground(shoe).
Flash Systems Evolution, Features and Operation

If you use it wireless mode then, it doesn't matter if the contacts are working properly. Does it work in wireless mode?
I guess you probably doing everything right, you've read all of the manuals, so I might not be saying anything you dont already know, but just to double check anyway......

- built in flash set to wireles mode
- AF360 set to wireless mode (on/off slider switch to the middle, wireless)
- AF360 set to slave on the M/C/S sliding switch.
- the channel has to be the same on the flash and the camera obviously. When you put the camera's flash mode into W the current channel is shown in the viewfinder for 10 seconds. (K-x manual page 165)
- The AF360 has to be set to the same channel. You can set the channel in the flash's menus.
- Putting the AF360 in the hotshoe in wireless mode and half-press the shutting should match the camera channel to the flash setting. If it doesnt then the communication thru the pin isnt working.

- Slave made set to Slave 1 . this is a more obscure setting (see AF360 manual page 49). It has to be set to Slave 1.
If it is set to Slave 2 then P-TTL wont work, the flash will go of on the pre flash before the exposure.

I think thats it for settings.

The only other thing is the AF360's sensor has to "see" the built in flash.

Sometimes its really hard to tell if the main flash really did fire when you're looking thru the viewfinder. I mean you can tell the flash went off but did it make the exposure? How about take some test pictures with the head of the AF360 actually in the photo. This way you can tell if it really did fire to make the exposure.

In reality for the things you are trying to do, it's simpler to get a TTL cable and the 5-pin adapters and then you can postion the flash where you want it and it still has all the functions of the flash as if its still on the camera.

The AF540 has all of the same functions and all of the same menus of the AF360. The only difference is the swivel on the head, admittedly very handy, and of course its (50%?) more poweful. A lot more expensive though.
Flash Burst Profiles - Pentax P-TTL Flash Comparison

Edit: that video that Jim posted is really helpful i've seen it before but, man he goes thru it quickly so be ready to pause and replay parts of it, to understand it.

photolady95 · 06-21-2012, 01:24 AM

I did what you said Steve. Using the flash manual and the K-x manual made wireless flash on camera, same channel on flash and camera, and slave set to slave 1. Then I took some photos of stuff around my living area using the same settings, one good, one bad:

Both set to 1/90s, f13, and ISO200.

steve1307 · 06-21-2012, 08:40 AM

Well, very different obviously.
This was on wireless with the AF360 removed for the camera right? Sounds like you did all the settings correctly.

In the underexposed one, did the AF360 flash actually fire at all? the exif says it did but obviously it looks like its not in the exposure.
The other one it appears to have worked properly, so i guess the if the AF360's could "see" the built in fash and the AF360 was charged up then you might have some intermittent problem with the flash.

Just trying to eliminate all the possible causes though.

Lastly, I assume the batteries in the flash were OK of course. Once mine worked , then didnt work and then did then didn't and it was the batteries needed refreshing. Confused me for a few minutes though.

photolady95 · 06-21-2012, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by steve1307

This was on wireless with the AF360 removed for the camera right?

It was not removed from the camera. It was installed in the hotshoe. I have no way to use the flash off camera. As for the batteries, they were fresh when I put them in there but they are almost a month old. I'll pick up so fresh ones in a bit and try again this afternoon with these settings and this lens.

I'll be out of contact for about an hour, got to go grocery shopping for myself and my sister (who has no car).

steve1307 · 06-22-2012, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by photolady

It was not removed from the camera. It was installed in the hotshoe.
I have no way to use the flash off camera.

.

Hang on we'd better back up a bit......

Your AF360 flash IS able to be used off camera. ... You can trigger it wireless optically with the light from your pop-up flash.

That was what all those setting in the previous post was about.
ie Set camera flash mode to W
Set AF360 flash on/off to wireless
Set AF360 flash M/C/S to slave
Set channels the same......
...... all of that was for using the flash wirelessly off the camera.

If you want to use it on the camera hotshoe, no problem, you dont have to worry about any of those channel settings.
All you have to do is make sure the light is pointing in the right direction or bounced for lighting your subject and the distance is OK.
Shooting closer objects you might blow the scene out white if the light is direct and too close, but if it is mis-directed then you would get less light falling on the subject and getting underexposed of course.
..

Anyway, I think the solution in your case for shooting closer objects might be to get a TTL cable and some kind of diffuser on the flash head which softens the light (I know you said befor you had already made one).
This way you can point the light right where you want and the flash behaves the same as if it was still on the hot-shoe. It's simpler and more reliable than wireless optical.

I still can't really tell if your flash is faulty for sure or not. It definitely did work in that last photo you posted though.

photolady95 · 06-22-2012, 06:14 AM

The K-x doesn't have TTL. I don't know if you meant that or something else. I took a total of seven photos with this set up. The first two were okay but not as the one I posted. Then I took three more photos and they were like the underexposed one I posted, then I took two more shots and they were like the one I posted second, So it working only part time, not consistently, as it should.

Question on off camera flash. Is there an object I can get to mount the flash on a tripod? I think I remember hearing about this setup but have never researched it any further.

steve1307 · 06-23-2012, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by photolady

The K-x doesn't have TTL. I don't know if you meant that or something else. I took a total of seven photos with this set up. The first two were okay but not as the one I posted. Then I took three more photos and they were like the underexposed one I posted, then I took two more shots and they were like the one I posted second, So it working only part time, not consistently, as it should.

Question on off camera flash. Is there an object I can get to mount the flash on a tripod? I think I remember hearing about this setup but have never researched it any further.

When I said TTL cable & adaptors I meant these type of things.

These are the Pentax branded ones., but there are other suitable 3rd party versions.
The forum member "SoldBear" took this photo and thoughtfully shows the both the upper view and the underside of the adaptors.

Just in case you havent seen these before i'll quickly describe.

You put one adaptor one the camera hotshoe - the one with the 4 pin contacts undeneath. (this is the one on the left - or the one in the middle does the same thing)
connect to the cable,
and at the other end of the cable you put the adaptor for mounting the flash on it. (this is the one on the right of the photo).

This makes it so your camera is still electrically connected to your hotshoe but you are able to move the flash around to whatever postion the cable can reach to.
The camera still "thinks" the the flash is directly on top so you can get it off camera but don't have to mess around with settings for wireless.

Pentax do this short coiled cable about 3ft long and a much longer non coiled one about 10ft long.
.
.

I know the K-x and other Pentax DLSRs do " P-TTL" now not "TTL." I was just referring to the cables described above.
.
.

Now your other question How to mount the flash on a tripod.
There are heaps of fittings to do that.
Have a look at the underside of the adaptor on the right of the pic above. It has a 1/4" threaded hole on the underside so it can be screwed onto a tripod QR plate.

There are lots of adaptors with a cold shoe mount on the top, I've got one of these nice metal Stroboframe brand ones for all of $8.32
Stroboframe Flash Mount Adapter - Standard Shoe Type 300-SHO B&H

When you buy a $400 pentax AF540 you get a plastic foot with no thread so you can't mount it onto a tripod.

The plastic feet for Nikon flashes have a 1/4" threaded hole on the underside - belive these fit all standard hotshoe . You can pick those up for a a few bucks on ebay (here the first similar one I found)
Hot Shoe Flash Stand AS-21 F Nikon SB-900 SB-800 SB-600 | eBay

.
.
.

Seems to be an either an intermittient proble with your flash , if it was something that was a dodgy electrical connection, the sysmtoms of the fault I expect would be like this........ It would work fine every time for a while and then when you move it (the connection goes) and then it would not work at all until you moved it and the connection comes back.

From your description it sounds like it is not charging up properly, or taking a very long time to recharge the flash between shots. With fresh batteries, and firing the flash a full power it should properly recharge in something like 5 or 6 seconds. I assume you are waiting for it to properly recharge between shots.

photolady95 · 06-23-2012, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by steve1307

I assume you are waiting for it to properly recharge between shots.

I may not have been. I Know I heard it charging up but not sure if it was between shots or after I stopped shooting. I'm thinking the latter.

Thanks for the advice on which part to buy. And SoldBear's photos helped. I too am glad he took top and bottom photos. I think I'll order the Stroboframe adapter. That's pretty cheap cost wise. Last night I read another thread on mounting to tripod and some of the adapters they suggested went as high as $19.99. Too much in my opinion for a little bit of metal.

When I shot film, I had a Metz 45-cl4 handle mount. Before that I had an older flash, with bracket on camera, flash on top of bracket. So I've used flash off camera before but never had one attached to a tripod and wasn't sure if parts I needed would be the same. In a few days I will have two tripods, I can use one for the flash and one for the camera. The older one I was going to sell but with the leg creep problem it has, I doubt I'd get much for it ( I bought it here on PF forums two years ago for $60).

photolady95 · 06-23-2012, 06:17 PM

Used the flash again tonight, worked great, but I still had it on camera. Still I took several photos and nothing was underexposed:

06-20-2012, 07:56 PM	#33
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Broken ?.... maybe it's the connection to the hot shoe. (ie a connection in the base of the unit). You said it test fires with the button so the flash head itself is OK. Has it ever worked on camera? at all ? There's 5 contacts including the ground. The big centre one is the one that fires the flash. I don't know how its effected if the other pins arent contacting. Maybe it loses the P-TTL function or it wont fire in P-TTL but works in manual, maybe not at all. You can use the AF360 on older cameras with only the centre terminal for triggering and the ground(shoe). Flash Systems Evolution, Features and Operation If you use it wireless mode then, it doesn't matter if the contacts are working properly. Does it work in wireless mode? I guess you probably doing everything right, you've read all of the manuals, so I might not be saying anything you dont already know, but just to double check anyway...... - built in flash set to wireles mode - AF360 set to wireless mode (on/off slider switch to the middle, wireless) - AF360 set to slave on the M/C/S sliding switch. - the channel has to be the same on the flash and the camera obviously. When you put the camera's flash mode into W the current channel is shown in the viewfinder for 10 seconds. (K-x manual page 165) - The AF360 has to be set to the same channel. You can set the channel in the flash's menus. - Putting the AF360 in the hotshoe in wireless mode and half-press the shutting should match the camera channel to the flash setting. If it doesnt then the communication thru the pin isnt working. - Slave made set to Slave 1 . this is a more obscure setting (see AF360 manual page 49). It has to be set to Slave 1. If it is set to Slave 2 then P-TTL wont work, the flash will go of on the pre flash before the exposure. I think thats it for settings. The only other thing is the AF360's sensor has to "see" the built in flash. Sometimes its really hard to tell if the main flash really did fire when you're looking thru the viewfinder. I mean you can tell the flash went off but did it make the exposure? How about take some test pictures with the head of the AF360 actually in the photo. This way you can tell if it really did fire to make the exposure. In reality for the things you are trying to do, it's simpler to get a TTL cable and the 5-pin adapters and then you can postion the flash where you want it and it still has all the functions of the flash as if its still on the camera. The AF540 has all of the same functions and all of the same menus of the AF360. The only difference is the swivel on the head, admittedly very handy, and of course its (50%?) more poweful. A lot more expensive though. Flash Burst Profiles - Pentax P-TTL Flash Comparison Edit: that video that Jim posted is really helpful i've seen it before but, man he goes thru it quickly so be ready to pause and replay parts of it, to understand it. Last edited by steve1307; 06-20-2012 at 08:01 PM.

06-23-2012, 05:42 AM	#39
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Originally posted by photolady The K-x doesn't have TTL. I don't know if you meant that or something else. I took a total of seven photos with this set up. The first two were okay but not as the one I posted. Then I took three more photos and they were like the underexposed one I posted, then I took two more shots and they were like the one I posted second, So it working only part time, not consistently, as it should. Question on off camera flash. Is there an object I can get to mount the flash on a tripod? I think I remember hearing about this setup but have never researched it any further. When I said TTL cable & adaptors I meant these type of things. These are the Pentax branded ones., but there are other suitable 3rd party versions. The forum member "SoldBear" took this photo and thoughtfully shows the both the upper view and the underside of the adaptors. Just in case you havent seen these before i'll quickly describe. You put one adaptor one the camera hotshoe - the one with the 4 pin contacts undeneath. (this is the one on the left - or the one in the middle does the same thing) connect to the cable, and at the other end of the cable you put the adaptor for mounting the flash on it. (this is the one on the right of the photo). This makes it so your camera is still electrically connected to your hotshoe but you are able to move the flash around to whatever postion the cable can reach to. The camera still "thinks" the the flash is directly on top so you can get it off camera but don't have to mess around with settings for wireless. Pentax do this short coiled cable about 3ft long and a much longer non coiled one about 10ft long. . . I know the K-x and other Pentax DLSRs do " P-TTL" now not "TTL." I was just referring to the cables described above. . . Now your other question How to mount the flash on a tripod. There are heaps of fittings to do that. Have a look at the underside of the adaptor on the right of the pic above. It has a 1/4" threaded hole on the underside so it can be screwed onto a tripod QR plate. There are lots of adaptors with a cold shoe mount on the top, I've got one of these nice metal Stroboframe brand ones for all of $8.32 Stroboframe Flash Mount Adapter - Standard Shoe Type 300-SHO B&H When you buy a $400 pentax AF540 you get a plastic foot with no thread so you can't mount it onto a tripod. The plastic feet for Nikon flashes have a 1/4" threaded hole on the underside - belive these fit all standard hotshoe . You can pick those up for a a few bucks on ebay (here the first similar one I found) Hot Shoe Flash Stand AS-21 F Nikon SB-900 SB-800 SB-600 \| eBay . . . Seems to be an either an intermittient proble with your flash , if it was something that was a dodgy electrical connection, the sysmtoms of the fault I expect would be like this........ It would work fine every time for a while and then when you move it (the connection goes) and then it would not work at all until you moved it and the connection comes back. From your description it sounds like it is not charging up properly, or taking a very long time to recharge the flash between shots. With fresh batteries, and firing the flash a full power it should properly recharge in something like 5 or 6 seconds. I assume you are waiting for it to properly recharge between shots. Last edited by steve1307; 06-23-2012 at 05:53 AM.

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06-20-2012, 07:30 PM	#32
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Do not have speakers. I will see if I can find my headphones tomorrow.

06-21-2012, 01:24 AM	#34
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	I did what you said Steve. Using the flash manual and the K-x manual made wireless flash on camera, same channel on flash and camera, and slave set to slave 1. Then I took some photos of stuff around my living area using the same settings, one good, one bad: Both set to 1/90s, f13, and ISO200.

06-21-2012, 08:40 AM	#35
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Well, very different obviously. This was on wireless with the AF360 removed for the camera right? Sounds like you did all the settings correctly. In the underexposed one, did the AF360 flash actually fire at all? the exif says it did but obviously it looks like its not in the exposure. The other one it appears to have worked properly, so i guess the if the AF360's could "see" the built in fash and the AF360 was charged up then you might have some intermittent problem with the flash. Just trying to eliminate all the possible causes though. Lastly, I assume the batteries in the flash were OK of course. Once mine worked , then didnt work and then did then didn't and it was the batteries needed refreshing. Confused me for a few minutes though.

06-21-2012, 08:50 AM	#36
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Originally posted by steve1307 This was on wireless with the AF360 removed for the camera right? It was not removed from the camera. It was installed in the hotshoe. I have no way to use the flash off camera. As for the batteries, they were fresh when I put them in there but they are almost a month old. I'll pick up so fresh ones in a bit and try again this afternoon with these settings and this lens. I'll be out of contact for about an hour, got to go grocery shopping for myself and my sister (who has no car).

06-22-2012, 01:12 AM	#37
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Originally posted by photolady It was not removed from the camera. It was installed in the hotshoe. I have no way to use the flash off camera. . Hang on we'd better back up a bit...... Your AF360 flash IS able to be used off camera. ... You can trigger it wireless optically with the light from your pop-up flash. That was what all those setting in the previous post was about. ie Set camera flash mode to W Set AF360 flash on/off to wireless Set AF360 flash M/C/S to slave Set channels the same...... ...... all of that was for using the flash wirelessly off the camera. If you want to use it on the camera hotshoe, no problem, you dont have to worry about any of those channel settings. All you have to do is make sure the light is pointing in the right direction or bounced for lighting your subject and the distance is OK. Shooting closer objects you might blow the scene out white if the light is direct and too close, but if it is mis-directed then you would get less light falling on the subject and getting underexposed of course. .. Anyway, I think the solution in your case for shooting closer objects might be to get a TTL cable and some kind of diffuser on the flash head which softens the light (I know you said befor you had already made one). This way you can point the light right where you want and the flash behaves the same as if it was still on the hot-shoe. It's simpler and more reliable than wireless optical. I still can't really tell if your flash is faulty for sure or not. It definitely did work in that last photo you posted though.

06-22-2012, 06:14 AM	#38
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	The K-x doesn't have TTL. I don't know if you meant that or something else. I took a total of seven photos with this set up. The first two were okay but not as the one I posted. Then I took three more photos and they were like the underexposed one I posted, then I took two more shots and they were like the one I posted second, So it working only part time, not consistently, as it should. Question on off camera flash. Is there an object I can get to mount the flash on a tripod? I think I remember hearing about this setup but have never researched it any further.

06-23-2012, 06:18 AM	#40
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Originally posted by steve1307 I assume you are waiting for it to properly recharge between shots. I may not have been. I Know I heard it charging up but not sure if it was between shots or after I stopped shooting. I'm thinking the latter. Thanks for the advice on which part to buy. And SoldBear's photos helped. I too am glad he took top and bottom photos. I think I'll order the Stroboframe adapter. That's pretty cheap cost wise. Last night I read another thread on mounting to tripod and some of the adapters they suggested went as high as $19.99. Too much in my opinion for a little bit of metal. When I shot film, I had a Metz 45-cl4 handle mount. Before that I had an older flash, with bracket on camera, flash on top of bracket. So I've used flash off camera before but never had one attached to a tripod and wasn't sure if parts I needed would be the same. In a few days I will have two tripods, I can use one for the flash and one for the camera. The older one I was going to sell but with the leg creep problem it has, I doubt I'd get much for it ( I bought it here on PF forums two years ago for $60).

06-23-2012, 06:17 PM	#41
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Used the flash again tonight, worked great, but I still had it on camera. Still I took several photos and nothing was underexposed: