No Clue What to Do With My Flash

Deiberson · 03-01-2010, 09:16 AM

Once again I bit off more than I can chew. I bought an AF-540. No clue on where to begin.
I have it set to P-TTl and understand that its a pre flash that discharges and then another flash dishcharges when the exposure is captured. I also get this "pre flash" when I go to TTl. I guess I was under the impression that when I switched to TTL that I would only get one flash and it would be more of an instant result.
Can someone recommend some references to read on basic flash use...and some terms/abbreviations that I should make sure I'm familiar with before I get my feet wet.

also....any simple recommendations to explore for simple results?
Maybe I'm not ready for this type of photography.

Ira · 03-01-2010, 10:24 AM

I'm no expert, but the pre-flash may be firing because of your auto-focus setting, using the flash to nail down focus.

See what happens if you simply turn off auto-focus.

**Canada_Rockies** · 03-01-2010, 11:59 AM

Read the manual that came with your flash. It's a hard go, I know, but will help some. The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances. The flash will not operate correctly in TTL mode, only pTTL mode.

Check that you do not have red-eye reduction turned on. There is also a flash sticky in the accessories forum.

Ratmagiclady · 03-01-2010, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

Read the manual that came with your flash. It's a hard go, I know, but will help some. The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances. The flash will not operate correctly in TTL mode, only pTTL mode.

Check that you do not have red-eye reduction turned on. There is also a flash sticky in the accessories forum.

I think you may have just nailed the problem, regardless, Canada. Redeye reduction is a pre-flash anyway: it's a pre-flash meant to get people's eyes to stop down in the dark so you don't see so much retina.

(This can be turned off in your camera, I believe)

**Just1MoreDave** · 03-01-2010, 12:30 PM

Your camera probably doesn't have TTL capability anyway. Only the *ist D, *ist DS and *ist DS2 have this. All other Pentax digitals can use P-TTL, A, M, slave or SB modes. I think A mode is your best bet for eliminating pre-flash.

I just got an AF-540FGZ on Saturday and I completely understand the "No clue where to begin" feeling. At least the manual mentions my camera. Hey Pentax, no more than 5% of your customers are buying this flash today to use on any camera listed in the manual. Time to consider rewriting it.

JeffJS · 03-01-2010, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

I think you may have just nailed the problem, regardless, Canada. Redeye reduction is a pre-flash anyway: it's a pre-flash meant to get people's eyes to stop down in the dark so you don't see so much retina.

(This can be turned off in your camera, I believe)

And it also usually insures that whoever you're taking a picture of, will move before the shutter fires for the real photo on the second flash.

Originally posted by Just1MoreDave

Your camera probably doesn't have TTL capability anyway. Only the *ist D, *ist DS and *ist DS2 have this. All other Pentax digitals can use P-TTL, A, M, slave or SB modes. I think A mode is your best bet for eliminating pre-flash.

I just got an AF-540FGZ on Saturday and I completely understand the "No clue where to begin" feeling. At least the manual mentions my camera. Hey Pentax, no more than 5% of your customers are buying this flash today to use on any camera listed in the manual. Time to consider rewriting it.

Pentax should have re-written that manual 3 or 4 years ago.

I think that the P-TTL preflash is so brief and close to the main firing that it can hardly be noticed. I THOUGHT that it was there to provide lighting for the camera to meter and properly set the exposure. I Believe that Trailing Curtain sync also fires twice similar to red eye reduction (but could be wrong about that).

Edit: Apparently they Have updated the manual somewhat (I bought my 540 when I got my K10d in 2006). It at least mentions the cameras through the K20d in the manual they have for the flash online. Further interesting, they say on page 60, that with a lens other than an A type (M), the flash switches to TTL mode..

SOldBear · 03-02-2010, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances.

It's off-topic of this thread, but is related to the p-TTL pre-flash strobe: my 14 yr-old son just recently developed sensitivity to the p-TTL pre-flash strobe. In about 70% of the photos taken with p-TTL, he has his eyes closed (fully or partially). I did not notice this problem last year. He does not have his eyes closed in any of the photos taken with the flash in A or M mode.

SOldBear · 03-02-2010, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by JeffJS

Further interesting, they say on page 60, that with a lens other than an A type (M), the flash switches to TTL mode..

Yes, it is quite interesting. Because in my experience with the K10D and K7 bodies, with a lens other than A type and if the flash (Pentax 540) is set at p-TTL, it fires 1 strobe at full power. I think this is true for any camera body that does not support TTL flash.

JeffJS · 03-02-2010, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by SOldBear

Yes, it is quite interesting. Because in my experience with the K10D and K7 bodies, with a lens other than A type and if the flash (Pentax 540) is set at p-TTL, it fires 1 strobe at full power. I think this is true for any camera body that does not support TTL flash.

Me too. k10/k20/k7, which is why I found it interesting. The only way I've been able to get a good exposure with M or K (or non-A) lenses (there are probably other ways) is to switch the flash to Auto mode and dial in the ISO and Aperture on the flash itself. Then it's near perfect. Otherwise, it looks like the camera took a picture of a white piece of paper. It does mention somewhere near there (don't have it in front of me right now) that on some cameras or conditions, even though it Says P-TTL, it is in fact, TTL.

I mentioned that they have updated the manual to include the K20d. I think they should just rewrite the damn thing instead of adding cameras to it in a generic sense.

Say something to the effect of:

"We at Pentax appreciate you buying our products. We further appreciate you keeping the legacy market alive. However, we would Rather that you buy all New lenses and just let the cameras do the thinking. However, if you insist, here is how to use the M. K, and M42 lenses with your K(xx) and AF540 (or 360)....... Step 1...." (joking of course)..

But hey, It wouldn't do me much good anyway.. I just take the flash out of the box, put the batteries on it, and start shooting until I find something that works. The camera manual explains how to do Wireless flash so I'm all set there.

Ben_Edict · 03-02-2010, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by Deiberson

Once again I bit off more than I can chew. I bought an AF-540. No clue on where to begin.
I have it set to P-TTl and understand that its a pre flash that discharges and then another flash dishcharges when the exposure is captured. I also get this "pre flash" when I go to TTl. I guess I was under the impression that when I switched to TTL that I would only get one flash and it would be more of an instant result.
Can someone recommend some references to read on basic flash use...and some terms/abbreviations that I should make sure I'm familiar with before I get my feet wet.

also....any simple recommendations to explore for simple results?
Maybe I'm not ready for this type of photography.

There is NO TTL FUNCTIONALITY if you use the flash with a Pentax DSLR. The old TTL flash control only works on Pentax film SLRs and the very first DSLR series (istD and istDS in particular). On all current Pentax DSLRs you can ONLY use P-TTL.

Ben

**Canada_Rockies** · 03-02-2010, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

There is NO TTL FUNCTIONALITY if you use the flash with a Pentax DSLR. The old TTL flash control only works on Pentax film SLRs and the very first DSLR series (istD and istDS in particular). On all current Pentax DSLRs you can ONLY use P-TTL.

Ben

Ben is absolutely correct on this. The sensor required for TTL flash control is not in the mirror box anymore.

Deiberson · 03-02-2010, 11:20 AM

i took the camera/flash out last night to a hs talent show. disappointing results.
here's what happens...
when i push the shutter down the flash goes off, preflash i suppose....the camera then waits about a second, maybe more, then fires again. except the flash that fired the first time is 10 times more powerful than the flash that went off the second time and i get no light in the shot.

i know nothing about how this works. still working on the manual. but, like all camera manuals, its like reading the phone but and tells you more about the names of buttons rather than the function and how to use it.

since the subjects are moving, i need a faster shutter speed. any nuggets for a newbie on how to get started and what settings to use on the camera and flash? its worth noting i was using manual lenses.

i ended up taking my kx out and shooting at 1600 iso.

SOldBear · 03-02-2010, 12:27 PM

Did you check to make sure "red-eye reduction" on the camera body was turned off?

What you described is not p-TTL pre-flash strobe. The p-TTL pre-flash strobe occurs about 1/50 sec before the main strobe. Most people can't tell there are two strobes.

Now do this:

1. Make sure "red-eye reduction" is turned off.
2. Set the flash and the camera to p-TTL mode.
3. Set the camera in 2-second delay shutter release.
4. Push the shutter release button. You should see in order: (1) the p-TTL pre-flash strobe, (2) the mirror raising, (3) the shutter release and the main strobe.

Deiberson · 03-02-2010, 12:54 PM

is the red eye reduction in the camera or on the flash? i don't have my k10 manual with me and don't see any mention of it in the contents of the 540 manual.

Ira · 03-02-2010, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Deiberson

is the red eye reduction in the camera or on the flash? i don't have my k10 manual with me and don't see any mention of it in the contents of the 540 manual.

The red eye reduction is just that extra burst of light to close the subject's pupils before the main burst flashes and the picture is actually taken, to minimize the red eye effect.

It's just that pre-burst of light from the flash--it's nothing special or complicated.

03-01-2010, 09:16 AM	#1
Deiberson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 734	No Clue What to Do With My Flash Once again I bit off more than I can chew. I bought an AF-540. No clue on where to begin. I have it set to P-TTl and understand that its a pre flash that discharges and then another flash dishcharges when the exposure is captured. I also get this "pre flash" when I go to TTl. I guess I was under the impression that when I switched to TTL that I would only get one flash and it would be more of an instant result. Can someone recommend some references to read on basic flash use...and some terms/abbreviations that I should make sure I'm familiar with before I get my feet wet. also....any simple recommendations to explore for simple results? Maybe I'm not ready for this type of photography.

03-01-2010, 09:28 PM	#6
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady I think you may have just nailed the problem, regardless, Canada. Redeye reduction is a pre-flash anyway: it's a pre-flash meant to get people's eyes to stop down in the dark so you don't see so much retina. (This can be turned off in your camera, I believe) And it also usually insures that whoever you're taking a picture of, will move before the shutter fires for the real photo on the second flash. Originally posted by Just1MoreDave Your camera probably doesn't have TTL capability anyway. Only the ist D, ist DS and ist DS2 have this. All other Pentax digitals can use P-TTL, A, M, slave or SB modes. I think A mode is your best bet for eliminating pre-flash. I just got an AF-540FGZ on Saturday and I completely understand the "No clue where to begin" feeling. At least the manual mentions my camera. Hey Pentax, no more than 5% of your customers are buying this flash today to use on any camera listed in the manual. Time to consider rewriting it. Pentax should have re-written that manual 3 or 4 years ago. I think that the P-TTL preflash is so brief and close to the main firing that it can hardly be noticed. I THOUGHT that it was there to provide lighting for the camera to meter and properly set the exposure. I Believe that Trailing Curtain sync also fires twice similar to red eye reduction (but could be wrong about that). Edit: Apparently they Have updated the manual somewhat (I bought my 540 when I got my K10d in 2006). It at least mentions the cameras through the K20d in the manual they have for the flash online. Further interesting, they say on page 60, that with a lens other than an A type (M), the flash switches to TTL mode.. Last edited by JeffJS; 03-01-2010 at 09:51 PM.*

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03-01-2010, 10:24 AM	#2
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	I'm no expert, but the pre-flash may be firing because of your auto-focus setting, using the flash to nail down focus. See what happens if you simply turn off auto-focus.

03-01-2010, 11:59 AM	#3
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Read the manual that came with your flash. It's a hard go, I know, but will help some. The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances. The flash will not operate correctly in TTL mode, only pTTL mode. Check that you do not have red-eye reduction turned on. There is also a flash sticky in the accessories forum.

03-01-2010, 12:06 PM	#4
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies Read the manual that came with your flash. It's a hard go, I know, but will help some. The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances. The flash will not operate correctly in TTL mode, only pTTL mode. Check that you do not have red-eye reduction turned on. There is also a flash sticky in the accessories forum. I think you may have just nailed the problem, regardless, Canada. Redeye reduction is a pre-flash anyway: it's a pre-flash meant to get people's eyes to stop down in the dark so you don't see so much retina. (This can be turned off in your camera, I believe)

03-01-2010, 12:30 PM	#5
Just1MoreDave Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Aurora, CO Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,340	Your camera probably doesn't have TTL capability anyway. Only the ist D, ist DS and *ist DS2 have this. All other Pentax digitals can use P-TTL, A, M, slave or SB modes. I think A mode is your best bet for eliminating pre-flash. I just got an AF-540FGZ on Saturday and I completely understand the "No clue where to begin" feeling. At least the manual mentions my camera. Hey Pentax, no more than 5% of your customers are buying this flash today to use on any camera listed in the manual. Time to consider rewriting it.

03-02-2010, 12:33 AM	#7
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies The pre-flash for pTTL does happen, but should not be terribly noticeable under normal circumstances. It's off-topic of this thread, but is related to the p-TTL pre-flash strobe: my 14 yr-old son just recently developed sensitivity to the p-TTL pre-flash strobe. In about 70% of the photos taken with p-TTL, he has his eyes closed (fully or partially). I did not notice this problem last year. He does not have his eyes closed in any of the photos taken with the flash in A or M mode.

03-02-2010, 12:36 AM	#8
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by JeffJS Further interesting, they say on page 60, that with a lens other than an A type (M), the flash switches to TTL mode.. Yes, it is quite interesting. Because in my experience with the K10D and K7 bodies, with a lens other than A type and if the flash (Pentax 540) is set at p-TTL, it fires 1 strobe at full power. I think this is true for any camera body that does not support TTL flash.

03-02-2010, 01:14 AM	#9
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by SOldBear Yes, it is quite interesting. Because in my experience with the K10D and K7 bodies, with a lens other than A type and if the flash (Pentax 540) is set at p-TTL, it fires 1 strobe at full power. I think this is true for any camera body that does not support TTL flash. Me too. k10/k20/k7, which is why I found it interesting. The only way I've been able to get a good exposure with M or K (or non-A) lenses (there are probably other ways) is to switch the flash to Auto mode and dial in the ISO and Aperture on the flash itself. Then it's near perfect. Otherwise, it looks like the camera took a picture of a white piece of paper. It does mention somewhere near there (don't have it in front of me right now) that on some cameras or conditions, even though it Says P-TTL, it is in fact, TTL. I mentioned that they have updated the manual to include the K20d. I think they should just rewrite the damn thing instead of adding cameras to it in a generic sense. Say something to the effect of: "We at Pentax appreciate you buying our products. We further appreciate you keeping the legacy market alive. However, we would Rather that you buy all New lenses and just let the cameras do the thinking. However, if you insist, here is how to use the M. K, and M42 lenses with your K(xx) and AF540 (or 360)....... Step 1...." (joking of course).. But hey, It wouldn't do me much good anyway.. I just take the flash out of the box, put the batteries on it, and start shooting until I find something that works. The camera manual explains how to do Wireless flash so I'm all set there.

03-02-2010, 03:06 AM	#10
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by Deiberson Once again I bit off more than I can chew. I bought an AF-540. No clue on where to begin. I have it set to P-TTl and understand that its a pre flash that discharges and then another flash dishcharges when the exposure is captured. I also get this "pre flash" when I go to TTl. I guess I was under the impression that when I switched to TTL that I would only get one flash and it would be more of an instant result. Can someone recommend some references to read on basic flash use...and some terms/abbreviations that I should make sure I'm familiar with before I get my feet wet. also....any simple recommendations to explore for simple results? Maybe I'm not ready for this type of photography. There is NO TTL FUNCTIONALITY if you use the flash with a Pentax DSLR. The old TTL flash control only works on Pentax film SLRs and the very first DSLR series (istD and istDS in particular). On all current Pentax DSLRs you can ONLY use P-TTL. Ben

03-02-2010, 11:04 AM	#11
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by Ben_Edict There is NO TTL FUNCTIONALITY if you use the flash with a Pentax DSLR. The old TTL flash control only works on Pentax film SLRs and the very first DSLR series (istD and istDS in particular). On all current Pentax DSLRs you can ONLY use P-TTL. Ben Ben is absolutely correct on this. The sensor required for TTL flash control is not in the mirror box anymore.

03-02-2010, 11:20 AM	#12
Deiberson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 734 Original Poster	i took the camera/flash out last night to a hs talent show. disappointing results. here's what happens... when i push the shutter down the flash goes off, preflash i suppose....the camera then waits about a second, maybe more, then fires again. except the flash that fired the first time is 10 times more powerful than the flash that went off the second time and i get no light in the shot. i know nothing about how this works. still working on the manual. but, like all camera manuals, its like reading the phone but and tells you more about the names of buttons rather than the function and how to use it. since the subjects are moving, i need a faster shutter speed. any nuggets for a newbie on how to get started and what settings to use on the camera and flash? its worth noting i was using manual lenses. i ended up taking my kx out and shooting at 1600 iso.

03-02-2010, 12:27 PM	#13
SOldBear Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Did you check to make sure "red-eye reduction" on the camera body was turned off? What you described is not p-TTL pre-flash strobe. The p-TTL pre-flash strobe occurs about 1/50 sec before the main strobe. Most people can't tell there are two strobes. Now do this: 1. Make sure "red-eye reduction" is turned off. 2. Set the flash and the camera to p-TTL mode. 3. Set the camera in 2-second delay shutter release. 4. Push the shutter release button. You should see in order: (1) the p-TTL pre-flash strobe, (2) the mirror raising, (3) the shutter release and the main strobe.

03-02-2010, 12:54 PM	#14
Deiberson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 734 Original Poster	is the red eye reduction in the camera or on the flash? i don't have my k10 manual with me and don't see any mention of it in the contents of the 540 manual.

03-02-2010, 01:05 PM	#15
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Originally posted by Deiberson is the red eye reduction in the camera or on the flash? i don't have my k10 manual with me and don't see any mention of it in the contents of the 540 manual. The red eye reduction is just that extra burst of light to close the subject's pupils before the main burst flashes and the picture is actually taken, to minimize the red eye effect. It's just that pre-burst of light from the flash--it's nothing special or complicated.