High quality "Walk around" zoom for K3

**clackers** · 06-28-2018, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by normhead

. (And if memory serves me well, the same designers for the 18-135 and 77, and 16-85 and DA 70.

I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA*50 f1.4.

The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure.

bdery · 06-28-2018, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by First Poster

upper end walk around zoom

The best regarding IQ is without a doubt the 16-85.The 18-135 is excellent, and offers a broader range, but it's not quite as good. It also lacks the wide angle possibilities of the 16-85.

Originally posted by First Poster

Unfortunately, price will be a factor in making this purchase

Then possibly settle for the 18-135.

ChristianRock · 06-28-2018, 10:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA*50 f1.4.

The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure.

Saori also did the much-loved DA*50-135 and the fantastic DFA*70-200 2.8. He knows a thing or two about lens design

WileyB · 06-28-2018, 02:40 PM

bump for DA 18-135 as a beautiful all-purpose walk around (good used copy for $200 and change)

bump for any newer prime (35, 50, etc) for being forced to find really interesting compositions :-)

normhead · 06-28-2018, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by clackers

I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA*50 f1.4.

The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure.

through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers
I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from onw of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.'

But given that he designed the 16-85 afterr the 18-135, we can assume he made an effort to make it a better lens than the 18-135. just as the 18-135 was designed not to be a premium lens, but better than the kit. If he did design the 28-105 then we can assume it was meant to be the FF version and an optical improvement over the 16-85 but without digging through the old interviews for the quote I can't be sure.

What can be said for sure is that every lens he's designed has been an improvement over what came before it. I think folks in the future could be collecting his designs the same way some now collect Hirakawa designs.

**clackers** · 06-28-2018, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by normhead

through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers
I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from on of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.'

But given that he designed the 16-85 afterr the 18-135, we can assume he made an effort to make it a better lens than the 18-135. just as the 18-135 was designed not to be premium lens, but better than the kit. If he did design the 28-105 then we can assume it was meant to be the FF version and an optical improvement over the 16-85 but without digging through the old interviews for the quote I can't be sure.

What can be said for sure is that every lens he's designed has been an improvement over what came before it. I think folks in the future could be collecting his designs the same way some now collect Hirakawa designs.

A wonderful link, that, by forum member 'Douglas of Sweden'.

Yeah, a lot of attributing designs is guesswork, because unless you can find a patent with names attached, no company wants to make rock stars out of its employees. Just means you have to pay heaps to keep 'em.

I get the feeling that since the Hoya/Ricoh takeovers, Saori's about the only senior optical designer they have (and from a cost perspective, management would be happy with that), so designs come out very slowly with that bottleneck. He did the 70-200, but deals were done with Tamron to get the 15-30 and 24-70 out at about the same time in readiness for the K-1 release.

If the hunch is true, this is why we see a 50mm then eventually the 85mm then sometime after the 35mm or whatever it will be. He might have underlings of some ability or another, but the chief designer probably has to devote a lot of personal time to see each project through. At Canon or Nikon, perhaps they've got ten guys at his level, with scores of assistants!

I suspect you're right about the 28-105 (physically looks similar to the 17-70 and 18-135) and probably you can throw in the 20-40, too, he does seem to have built his reputation on quality zooms. And he has other patents in novel floating element systems, so maybe the 55-300, too, which has a tiny focusing group.

A black mark against him is that when younger he put the first generation of Pentax in-lens motors into the top of the line and big 16-50 and 50-135 star lenses of the day and they were definitely under spec.

I note that the pamphlet for the SDM in the 50mm f1.4 assures it's all new and twice (Edit: 7.5 times!) as powerful as other designs, because it has to drive very heavy elements. In any case, the forum members who've shot with the prototypes have had no complaints.

C_Jones · 06-28-2018, 09:12 PM

The Pentax 16-85 is a great lens. I have one and the image quality is outstanding. It also is weather resistant.

Jonathan Mac · 06-29-2018, 12:08 AM

The Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 is the best budget general-purpose lens for Pentax. Really no more range than the kit lens but leagues better in sharpness and colour and lets in a lot more light so it's better in less than ideal light situations or when you want to isolate a subject with an out-of-focus background.

HoutHans · 06-29-2018, 01:17 AM

I have plenty of primes (older ones, pentax M and takumar) and as much as I enjoy taking them out, the 18-135 is my preferred walk around lens. Perfectly acceptable sharpness, not too heavy (both on the wallet and the neck when carrying it around on (mountain) walks) en reasonably priced. That being said: I'm looking for a slightly wider lens, say a 14 - 16 mm.

**stihlmania** · 06-29-2018, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Bison Bud

I recently bought a used K3 with the kit 18-55 WR lens and have been very pleased. However, I had really hoped for a bit more clarity and resolution and I think the problem is most probably the kit lens. What would the Pentaxians here recommend as a upper end walk around zoom (preferably with auto focus) for use with the K3? Unfortunately, price will be a factor in making this purchase, but at least for now let's leave that out of the equation as I'd like to find out just what might be the upper end in this type of lens. Thanks and good shooting to all.

Foe me, the HD DA 55-300 and my K-3II are a matched pair.

bdery · 06-29-2018, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by normhead

through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers
I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from onw of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.'

Thanks, I didn't know about this article.

Now that I have the FA20-35 to cover the wide end, a part of me wants to swap the 16-85 with the 28-105 and have a full frame only kit, but I fear that I'd miss the wider end.

**aslyfox** · 06-29-2018, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by bdery

Thanks, I didn't know about this article.

Now that I have the FA20-35 to cover the wide end, a part of me wants to swap the 16-85 with the 28-105 and have a full frame only kit, but I fear that I'd miss the wider end.

this might help predict what you would end up missing between your 20mm and the 16 mm low end

FOV Tables: Field-of-view of lenses by focal length

Field-of-view (also known as FOV)
The values for Field of View (FOV) come up frequently enough at the forums that I thought a list might be helpful for quick reference.
Remember that focal length is stated for infinity and most lenses decrease in focal length as you focus closer.

1st column is FF

2nd is Pentax ASP-C

bdery · 06-29-2018, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Aslyfox

his might help predict what you would end up missing between your 20mm and the 16 mm low end

FOV Tables: Field-of-view of lenses by focal length

Field-of-view (also known as FOV)
The values for Field of View (FOV) come up frequently enough at the forums that I thought a list might be helpful for quick reference.
Remember that focal length is stated for infinity and most lenses decrease in focal length as you focus closer.

1st column is FF

2nd is Pentax ASP-C

Thanks. I've made a graph myself (being an optical designer helps

). However, we're comparing 16mm on APS-C (so a FOV of 24mm equivalent, with 16 MP resolution mode) with 20mm on FF (with 36 MP available). So the FA20-35 is certainly wider, but the 16-85 is more convenient.

VoiceOfReason · 06-29-2018, 06:48 AM

I've gotten really sharp images even at 135mm on the 18-135. It was my go to lens with APSC as a walk around lens.

**aslyfox** · 06-29-2018, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by bdery

Thanks. I've made a graph myself (being an optical designer helps

). However, we're comparing 16mm on APS-C (so a FOV of 24mm equivalent, with 16 MP resolution mode) with 20mm on FF (with 36 MP available). So the FA20-35 is certainly wider, but the 16-85 is more convenient.

true

and you have a lot more expertise than I do

but the chart is a start

06-28-2018, 03:01 PM	#35
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by clackers I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA50 f1.4. The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure. through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from onw of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.' But given that he designed the 16-85 afterr the 18-135, we can assume he made an effort to make it a better lens than the 18-135. just as the 18-135 was designed not to be a premium lens, but better than the kit. If he did design the 28-105 then we can assume it was meant to be the FF version and an optical improvement over the 16-85 but without digging through the old interviews for the quote I can't be sure. What can be said for sure is that every lens he's designed has been an improvement over what came before it. I think folks in the future could be collecting his designs the same way some now collect Hirakawa designs. Last edited by normhead; 06-28-2018 at 05:47 PM.*

06-28-2018, 04:14 PM	#36
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by normhead through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from on of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.' But given that he designed the 16-85 afterr the 18-135, we can assume he made an effort to make it a better lens than the 18-135. just as the 18-135 was designed not to be premium lens, but better than the kit. If he did design the 28-105 then we can assume it was meant to be the FF version and an optical improvement over the 16-85 but without digging through the old interviews for the quote I can't be sure. What can be said for sure is that every lens he's designed has been an improvement over what came before it. I think folks in the future could be collecting his designs the same way some now collect Hirakawa designs. A wonderful link, that, by forum member 'Douglas of Sweden'. Yeah, a lot of attributing designs is guesswork, because unless you can find a patent with names attached, no company wants to make rock stars out of its employees. Just means you have to pay heaps to keep 'em. I get the feeling that since the Hoya/Ricoh takeovers, Saori's about the only senior optical designer they have (and from a cost perspective, management would be happy with that), so designs come out very slowly with that bottleneck. He did the 70-200, but deals were done with Tamron to get the 15-30 and 24-70 out at about the same time in readiness for the K-1 release. If the hunch is true, this is why we see a 50mm then eventually the 85mm then sometime after the 35mm or whatever it will be. He might have underlings of some ability or another, but the chief designer probably has to devote a lot of personal time to see each project through. At Canon or Nikon, perhaps they've got ten guys at his level, with scores of assistants! I suspect you're right about the 28-105 (physically looks similar to the 17-70 and 18-135) and probably you can throw in the 20-40, too, he does seem to have built his reputation on quality zooms. And he has other patents in novel floating element systems, so maybe the 55-300, too, which has a tiny focusing group. A black mark against him is that when younger he put the first generation of Pentax in-lens motors into the top of the line and big 16-50 and 50-135 star lenses of the day and they were definitely under spec. I note that the pamphlet for the SDM in the 50mm f1.4 assures it's all new and twice (Edit: 7.5 times!) as powerful as other designs, because it has to drive very heavy elements. In any case, the forum members who've shot with the prototypes have had no complaints. Last edited by clackers; 06-29-2018 at 04:00 AM.

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06-28-2018, 08:54 AM	#31
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by normhead . (And if memory serves me well, the same designers for the 18-135 and 77, and 16-85 and DA 70. I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA*50 f1.4. The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure.

06-28-2018, 09:55 AM	#32
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by First Poster upper end walk around zoom The best regarding IQ is without a doubt the 16-85.The 18-135 is excellent, and offers a broader range, but it's not quite as good. It also lacks the wide angle possibilities of the 16-85. Originally posted by First Poster Unfortunately, price will be a factor in making this purchase Then possibly settle for the 18-135.

06-28-2018, 10:12 AM - 1 Like	#33
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	Originally posted by clackers I think the 18-135, 16-85 and 70 are Saori designs, being newer. Talented guy, he's probably also done the DFA50 f1.4. The 77 is film era - Hirakawa for sure. Saori also did the much-loved DA50-135 and the fantastic DFA*70-200 2.8. He knows a thing or two about lens design

06-28-2018, 02:40 PM	#34
WileyB Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: New Mexico Photos: Albums Posts: 441	bump for DA 18-135 as a beautiful all-purpose walk around (good used copy for $200 and change) bump for any newer prime (35, 50, etc) for being forced to find really interesting compositions :-)

06-28-2018, 09:12 PM	#37
C_Jones Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,088	The Pentax 16-85 is a great lens. I have one and the image quality is outstanding. It also is weather resistant.

06-29-2018, 12:08 AM	#38
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,897	The Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 is the best budget general-purpose lens for Pentax. Really no more range than the kit lens but leagues better in sharpness and colour and lets in a lot more light so it's better in less than ideal light situations or when you want to isolate a subject with an out-of-focus background.

06-29-2018, 01:17 AM	#39
HoutHans Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Appingedam Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,119	I have plenty of primes (older ones, pentax M and takumar) and as much as I enjoy taking them out, the 18-135 is my preferred walk around lens. Perfectly acceptable sharpness, not too heavy (both on the wallet and the neck when carrying it around on (mountain) walks) en reasonably priced. That being said: I'm looking for a slightly wider lens, say a 14 - 16 mm.

06-29-2018, 03:39 AM	#40
stihlmania Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Spring Branch, Tx Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 705	Originally posted by Bison Bud I recently bought a used K3 with the kit 18-55 WR lens and have been very pleased. However, I had really hoped for a bit more clarity and resolution and I think the problem is most probably the kit lens. What would the Pentaxians here recommend as a upper end walk around zoom (preferably with auto focus) for use with the K3? Unfortunately, price will be a factor in making this purchase, but at least for now let's leave that out of the equation as I'd like to find out just what might be the upper end in this type of lens. Thanks and good shooting to all. Foe me, the HD DA 55-300 and my K-3II are a matched pair.

06-29-2018, 05:07 AM	#41
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by normhead through the viewfinder: Known Pentax lens designs and designers I can't find any reference ti the 28-105 but for some reasons I have the impression it's a Saori design. I have this impression from onw of the interviews published on the forum, where I believe he discussed the design of the lens.' Thanks, I didn't know about this article. Now that I have the FA20-35 to cover the wide end, a part of me wants to swap the 16-85 with the 28-105 and have a full frame only kit, but I fear that I'd miss the wider end.

06-29-2018, 05:28 AM	#42
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by bdery Thanks, I didn't know about this article. Now that I have the FA20-35 to cover the wide end, a part of me wants to swap the 16-85 with the 28-105 and have a full frame only kit, but I fear that I'd miss the wider end. this might help predict what you would end up missing between your 20mm and the 16 mm low end FOV Tables: Field-of-view of lenses by focal length Field-of-view (also known as FOV) The values for Field of View (FOV) come up frequently enough at the forums that I thought a list might be helpful for quick reference. Remember that focal length is stated for infinity and most lenses decrease in focal length as you focus closer. 1st column is FF 2nd is Pentax ASP-C

06-29-2018, 05:41 AM	#43
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by Aslyfox his might help predict what you would end up missing between your 20mm and the 16 mm low end FOV Tables: Field-of-view of lenses by focal length Field-of-view (also known as FOV) The values for Field of View (FOV) come up frequently enough at the forums that I thought a list might be helpful for quick reference. Remember that focal length is stated for infinity and most lenses decrease in focal length as you focus closer. 1st column is FF 2nd is Pentax ASP-C Thanks. I've made a graph myself (being an optical designer helps ). However, we're comparing 16mm on APS-C (so a FOV of 24mm equivalent, with 16 MP resolution mode) with 20mm on FF (with 36 MP available). So the FA20-35 is certainly wider, but the 16-85 is more convenient.

06-29-2018, 06:48 AM	#44
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	I've gotten really sharp images even at 135mm on the 18-135. It was my go to lens with APSC as a walk around lens.

06-29-2018, 07:06 AM	#45
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by bdery Thanks. I've made a graph myself (being an optical designer helps ). However, we're comparing 16mm on APS-C (so a FOV of 24mm equivalent, with 16 MP resolution mode) with 20mm on FF (with 36 MP available). So the FA20-35 is certainly wider, but the 16-85 is more convenient. true and you have a lot more expertise than I do but the chart is a start